Posts : 1210 Join date : 2014-04-22 Location : Munich/Bavaria
Subject: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Thu Apr 21 2022, 12:57
Well, with the new balance dataslate came, at least for me, a big surprise:
Not bad for the tincans, really. And I am not envious, not really. But lets face it: We need to adapt to this. Our typical AP-1 weapons get a serious nerf here. That means, the chance of passing an armour save just raised 16.66%. Naa, but that was my first thought. I had some beer yesterday, so dont wonder... Luckily, the Goonhammer-guys did the math. The link is here!!
So, the question is, what could we do? Obviously, AP-3 and higher still work good enough. As will our humble AP0 shardweapons. Poor T'au. Indirect fire gives a malus to AP, too, btw.
Since I am kinda like a practical thinker, my first choice was: Raise our AP! Good plan, but somewhat impractical. Coven of twelve comes to mind. Their obsession does that. But that goes only for their melee attacks. Well, fair enough... We have another special rule that raises our AP on a regular basis: Blade artists. Nice... Works only in melee and only on 6s. With one exception! Custom cult. Precise Killers activates the AP boost on 5+. Combine that with 10 Bloodbribes on Adrenalight. That would be 51 S3 attacks on the charge, with every 5+ woundroll having AP-3 against power armour. I think, we all could live with that.
But, and thats a big heavy but: We would sacrifice a lot for this and Im not sure, if its worth it.
The last thought, I had about this was another nice one. Raiders with Dissies. Saves us 5pts, gives us 3 S5 D2 shots with only -2AP now, making powerarmor a better flakvest. But, there always has to be a but, it costs us a Darklance.
Lastly, some minor thoughts: Splinterracks could be worth it now, burrowing Marines in AP0 shots. Ossefactor and Hexrifles might also be much more viable, especially the latter because of the bodyguard changes.
Any other ideas?
Archon_91 Wych
Posts : 925 Join date : 2017-01-03
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Thu Apr 21 2022, 15:11
I'm thinking eviscerating fly by is going to see more use, so lots of squads of hellions and reavers, while using coven of twelve ... or taking g a serious look into our leadership shenanigans with the Dark creed, grisly trophies and then piling in as many phantasm grenade launchers as we can (so each raider can carry 3, two from 5 man squads with the sergeant upgrade and the one it can take itself) for a max of 9 mortals per raider, and then voidraven bombers with dark scyths and dissie cannon razrwings
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fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 22 2022, 00:03
First, I am going to complain a bit. Please note that this is coming from a Tournament/Competitive point of view.
We were always the "marine killer" army. To do this, GW raised the AP of all our close combat weapons by 1AP to kill marines. As the codex release cycle unfolded, we have been generally outclassed (basically since GSC came out). But this was OK, because we were the "marine killer" faction, not a Tau or Custodes or CWE killer.
Now GW has effectively reduced our AP vs the one target we were good at. And all our Nerfs that have added up over the year remain in place, so we cant really do much vs the non-marine armies and we cant do much against the meta marine armies (thousand sons, dark angels, etc).
With Tyranids now ROFL-stomping across the meta, we are in a pretty bad place. Our comp builds rely on punching things with D2 weapons, and most armies either have -1 damage spread about liberally, or can do various "uninteractive" tricks to prevent us from getting into punching range.
To make matters worse, all the latest factions have access to amazing Secondary tools. It seems like they can remain uninteractive, while still scoring around 35 secondary points (generally a Shadow Operation, Warpcraft, Battlefield Supremacy).
Right now the main focus of our Comp builds is to have Secondaries that can score at least 35 points without interacting with the opponent, because we can no longer count on killing that opponent (try to kill a Harpie with Incubi. Its literally impossible).
At this point my main hope is that Marines knock out some of our hardest match ups (generally those units that wont allow us to punch them with D2 attacks). This may not be reasonable.
In the meantime, my hint to the rest of you is to go Dark Technomancer. AP3 is essential to get thru the new AoC, and we do have some access to it with Disintegration Cannons and Ossifactors. And those weapons CAN interact with most things now. Unlike our poor Succubi/Incubi...
To all you Archons lurking in the shadows, make sure you are building around Secondaries that you are able to score. You cannot rely on "Ill just pick my third secondary around my opponents army". That is not a valid tactic with our current stats.
Sorry for being such a downer. I need to go spend some time rejuvenating in the Flesh Pits
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Soulless Samurai Incubi
Posts : 1921 Join date : 2018-04-02
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 22 2022, 00:40
Regarding the changes, this seems the worst possible way to implement them.
- If they had changed specific units/weapons (as in, removing AP from them), then they could have tweaked the cost of those units/weapons at the same time, as necessary. Either way, at least those armies would know where they stood.
- If they had removed a point of AP from every weapon in the game then, again, they could have tweaked the worst-affected units (and/or undone previous nerfs to said units). Either way, at least everyone would know where they stood.
Instead, they've removed a point of AP from all weapons (regardless of whether or not those weapons needed to be taken down a peg) . . . but only against certain factions. How exactly do you balance that? Especially on units that only have AP-1 to begin with, you're talking about a massive impact to their offensive abilities. Yet if you reduce their cost, it then hurts factions like Necrons - who also rely on armour but don't just get to ignore AP because And They Shall Know No Unfavourable Rules.
And it's not like this change only impacts outliers like Inquisition that barely ever appear on the table - Space Marines are by far the most prominent army in the entire game, with CSMs (who also get the bonus) probably being second or third most common.
It seems like it makes things really awkward for us, as we have a lot of units with AP-1. Off the top of my head, we've got Wyches, Wracks, Mandrakes, Hellions, Reavers, Khymerae, Sslyth, Ur-Ghuls, Venoms, anything with Shredders etc. So either we have to ignore a large chunk of our codex, or else we risk paying a lot of points for units that all become pillow-fisted if we end up facing Marines of any kind, CSMs and/or SoB.
Roll on 10th edition.
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 22 2022, 01:47
Oh, dont worry. Remember, we are getting another Army of Renown. Maybe. Possibly. At some point.
But honestly, my main hope is that Marines get back into a Meta position. I would LOVE to bring more than 5 Incubi to the table again.
This is making me think about Coven of 12 (was running them for a while in my Wrack Carpet build), but I think DT Ossifactors are more valuable for Harpies...
Archon_91 Wych
Posts : 925 Join date : 2017-01-03
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 22 2022, 01:53
I guess we'll have to see what Nachmund gives us in terms of pitiful rules ... and this is again why I say all codex should eb released at the same time, if they are going to balance their game around the minority of players that play competitively they desperately need everyone to be on the same foot right away, everyone playing with their current edition codex and not a slow trickle of power creep that skews the game and makes playing it feel worse for everyone, casual and competitive players alike, "but then they can't make money from meta chasers" ... there will always be meta chasers that buy the best regardless plus they can still release new models and warzones through the run of the edition even if it isn't Paired with codex releases and that would be easier to balance then the "smash rules against wall" approach they have now ... I apologize... rant over
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colinsherlow Hekatrix
Posts : 1034 Join date : 2011-11-23 Location : Vancouver BC
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 22 2022, 04:24
I honestly usually take 2x5 incubi and Drazar for the reliable ap, but am also thinking that maybe we want more blasters high ap guns. I don't take many raiders, but disintegrators might be worth taking now. I was having good succubus with my poison tongue duel cannon venoms, but not sure of that now. Poop!
I have given some corsairs a try as well and their auto wounding on 6s to hit at ap3 is really nice. And better than expected. It's also nice on the blasters and wraithcannon. Especially nice for the cannon as a 6 to git will auto wound and do a MW as well.
Heck maybe I'll bring 5 more incubi. Haha
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 22 2022, 23:24
TBF, there are still armies in much worse positions than us VS Power Armor.
From what I am seeing in the Comp scene, the only real Power Armor army that is pulling any real weight is Thousand Sons. So maybe this change isnt as impactful as first thought.
Cant wait to see the results of this weekends tournaments on Monday. Maybe I am wrong, but after some testing my gut tells me that AoC isnt going to change much. Marines still suffer from poor Secondaries and high cost units. They still cant compete with the newest codicies (unless piloted by a general with superior skill)
Zenotaph Hekatrix
Posts : 1210 Join date : 2014-04-22 Location : Munich/Bavaria
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Sat Apr 23 2022, 09:40
Here!!! Deathguard won the Tournament with the new Balance update. Very nice list. Really...
Zenotaph Hekatrix
Posts : 1210 Join date : 2014-04-22 Location : Munich/Bavaria
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Sat Apr 23 2022, 11:45
Thats the winning list. I would say, AoC has an impact...
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Sat Apr 23 2022, 12:42
Looks like a standard DG list. Would be curious to see the Secondaries.
What size Tourney? RTTs can be won by great generals rocking substandard armies (ive been kicked in the teeth by Necrons before )
I do hope that this is a pattern. We DO have the tools to deal with power armor, and I would love an excuse to drop some "exist in locations" tools to bring more "actually kill stuff" tools
CptMetal Dracon
Posts : 3069 Join date : 2015-03-03 Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Sat Apr 23 2022, 12:56
I think I will go with Raiders and disintegrators and corsairs with splinter racks.
But I think the PGL strategy has very intriguing, but I do not have enough coven for that
Zenotaph Hekatrix
Posts : 1210 Join date : 2014-04-22 Location : Munich/Bavaria
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Tue Apr 26 2022, 12:03
fisheyes wrote:
Looks like a standard DG list. Would be curious to see the Secondaries.
What size Tourney? RTTs can be won by great generals rocking substandard armies (ive been kicked in the teeth by Necrons before )
I do hope that this is a pattern. We DO have the tools to deal with power armor, and I would love an excuse to drop some "exist in locations" tools to bring more "actually kill stuff" tools
www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-the-curtain-falls Thats the link from above.
dumpeal Hekatrix
Posts : 1275 Join date : 2015-02-13 Location : Québec
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Wed Apr 27 2022, 05:38
I used to use 3 10-kabs unit in a raider, with 1 dark lance and 2 blaster. Guess I'll be fine.
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Thu Apr 28 2022, 22:04
After a few weeks of running Dark Technomancers, I am off the train. Did a game into Nids (the army I was specifically teching for), and it turned out terribly.
After the match, did some quick napkin math, and discovered it would take about 47 overcharged DT shots to take down 1 Harpie. ROFL.
So Im now back on the standard "goodstuff" builds, and just taking the loss vs Nids and other Aircraft spam factions.
Soulless Samurai Incubi
Posts : 1921 Join date : 2018-04-02
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Thu Apr 28 2022, 22:42
fisheyes wrote:
After a few weeks of running Dark Technomancers, I am off the train. Did a game into Nids (the army I was specifically teching for), and it turned out terribly.
After the match, did some quick napkin math, and discovered it would take about 47 overcharged DT shots to take down 1 Harpie. ROFL.
When you say 'DT shots', can I ask what you're actually referring to? Are we talking Venoms with Splinter Cannons? Raiders with Disintegrators? Wracks with Hexrifles/Ossefactors? Cronos with Cronos stuff? One of the Talos weapons?
I guess I'm curious in general as to what people use with DTs, now that the most ubiquitous Coven weapon can't make use of it.
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Thu Apr 28 2022, 23:14
Yeah Tyr are just busted. Seems a recent pattern that you should avoid to play (against) every new Codex before the release of their proper FaQ/Erratas. A bit of shame from GW that can't playtest something before the release. A bit of cheers for the fastness on releasing fixes.
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Thu Apr 28 2022, 23:15
The Harpie profile is 12W, -1 to hit, Transhuman, 4++, and a 5+++ if we go second (which is likely, since we probably wont see it Turn 1 if we go First).
This would put most of our weapons to hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, saving on 4s, then 1/3 of the damage bouncing off. In this scenario, Hexrifles, Ossifcators, Dissintegration Cannons and Splinter Cannons all have the same effective profile.
For a lark, it would take 27 hits from Overcharging Liquifiers to take one down.
Please note that I just did some quick calculations, my math may be slightly off. But I think it paints a clear enough picture: we are not shooting a Harpie out of the sky.
Archon_91 Wych
Posts : 925 Join date : 2017-01-03
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 29 2022, 02:33
Have you tried running the numbers using Flayed skull?
Sarcron Sybarite
Posts : 365 Join date : 2018-11-05 Location : Studying under Mr. Rakarth Sir
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 29 2022, 09:21
fisheyes wrote:
The Harpie profile is 12W, -1 to hit, Transhuman, 4++, and a 5+++ if we go second (which is likely, since we probably wont see it Turn 1 if we go First).
This would put most of our weapons to hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, saving on 4s, then 1/3 of the damage bouncing off. In this scenario, Hexrifles, Ossifcators, Dissintegration Cannons and Splinter Cannons all have the same effective profile.
For a lark, it would take 27 hits from Overcharging Liquifiers to take one down.
Please note that I just did some quick calculations, my math may be slightly off. But I think it paints a clear enough picture: we are not shooting a Harpie out of the sky.
How is it getting the transhuman? Are they making it a Synapse Creature?
krayd Hekatrix
Posts : 1343 Join date : 2011-10-03 Location : Richmond, VA
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 29 2022, 17:10
I'm probably going to start packing at least one ravager with 3 dissies. Basically, things have reverted back to being like older editions, where you had to soften up marine units with support fire so that your melee attacks would be sufficient to finish them, as they would likely get a 3+ against most of them.
Ravagers w/ dissies have mostly not been used in 9th because a lot of our other units were just as good, or better, at taking out marines en masse. Since that is no longer the case, it may be time to bring the old marine-killing option back out. I just wish that dissies were cheaper on ravagers, as they are with raiders.
Actually, I'm tempted to use Flayed Skull, for the ignore light cover ability. Marines sitting in light cover have an effective 1+ armor save now. The ability to completely negate that is probably worth considering.
Wrack_Enthusiast Hellion
Posts : 42 Join date : 2021-09-29
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 29 2022, 17:51
Would going for a higher quantity of attacks be helpful? I know the Coven of Twelve boosts AP for melee attacks, but is it always better than a custom coven with Splinterblades and another utility obsession?
Zenotaph Hekatrix
Posts : 1210 Join date : 2014-04-22 Location : Munich/Bavaria
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Fri Apr 29 2022, 20:47
Uh, 1 Dissi Ravager and 3 DL Raider is 460pts. 1 DL Ravager and 3 Dissi Raider is only 430pts. Maybe Raider spam is the answer...
fisheyes Klaivex
Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Sat Apr 30 2022, 01:37
The Harpie are Transhuman due to getting Synapse. Its a 15 point upgrade, that only one can get. The second one usually gets a 4++ save (which a unit of Zoantropes usually give out for free Turn 1 armywide).
Technically the second Harpie would only be hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, saving on 4s, maybe with a 5+++ due to Catalyst.
Regardless, the math is not very great for anything except Hellions. And the Hellions generally get picked up on Turn 1 by the Harpies (they will likely get the first blow, since they move faster).
Honestly, Raider Spam may be a better idea. Much easier to build in your TTL that way (keeping things MSU), and leaning into what we do well. Punch things with Hellions/Incubi and just take the loss vs armies that are packing too much defense/movement/scoring potential. Luckily Power Armor factions generally dont fall into these catagories.
In my experience most Power Armor factions have trouble with Secondaries, and I think that is where we can beat them. Into factions we can reasonably kill we go for Stranglehold/Herd, Banners, TTL. Into factions we cant realistically kill we go Engage, RND, Assassinate. Wracks being an important ingredient to the mix.
Of course there are alternate methods that people smarter than I are investigating. And I am continuing to talk Competitive. So YMMV
Zenotaph Hekatrix
Posts : 1210 Join date : 2014-04-22 Location : Munich/Bavaria
Subject: Re: Drukhari versus Powerarmor Sat Apr 30 2022, 12:16
Hmm, I gave the Raiderspam a second thought. Or was it a third?
The 5 points from using Dissies over DL could go to chain snares. That would make 6 S7 AP-1 D1 attacks per boat. AP-2 with Coven of 12. Ok, only WS4, but otherwise a nice distraction. And filled with MSU sized Incubi and Wracks...
Subject: Drukhari versus Powerarmor 
Thu Apr 21 2022, 12:57
I had some beer yesterday, so dont wonder...
)
