Squishing juice from Coven units

Hey guys (or girls), I wonder what do You think about this Haemonculus/Grot build.

Haemonculus, Ancient, Venom Blade, Liquifier 95

3 Grotesques 130
Liquifier, Abberation with Venom Blade


Haemonculus - for 35 points (Ancient + VB) You get boosts of stats and additional 2+ poison attack (kinda like buying Scissorhand, except better and with stat boost).

Abberation - for 15 points over Grot You get 2 additional attacks. Yes, 2. Read codex. And I can use Venom Blade OR CCW. Kinda good deal I guess.

I found it pretty... interesing.
Obviously this go into Raider, hopefully with NS AND FF. Maybe with ram.

Also, how YOUR coven doin?

I basically like it though I'm not a fan of the Ancient upgrade. When I use Grots the Haem's job is to be the attached IC to prevent leadership problems. He's there to drop a flame template and to *maybe* base up some inconsequential thing on the edge of combat. I don't want to pay much to have 'good' assaultcapability with the Haem because I never want to have to put him at risk in the assault of being targeted and killed.

T3 is kinda a bummer... I can see uses of Ancient tho. +1 I, +1 WS make him more killy and more dodgy (not to mention +A).
Let's check how he would fight with "CC grunt" (3 attacks, WS4)

3 attacks with WS4 vs. WS4 = about 1,5 hits
3 attacks with WS4 vs. WS4 = about 1,5 hits
simultaneously


4 attacks with WS5 vs. WS4 = 2,(6) hits from Haemy (I5 or I6 sue to FC)
3 attacks with WS4 vs. WS4 = about 1 hit form enemy.

Basically, when fighting WS4 it instanteusly cut damage by 1/3 and boost output nearly twice.

As for Grots... this unit is ultimate "antibully unit", kinda like Ork MANz. Noone love them but when they hit "shiny troops", this happen:



Oh, and get "free" FC.

Or you could theme your PGL Archon as a hands-on Haemy...

Yeah if I was running Grots and trying to keep the unit cheap, I'd run them with an Archon w/ Shadowfield, Agonizer, PGL. 135pts and bam, he'll stay alive longer than the Haemie, give the unit Grenades, and add what they need, power weapon attacks.

Hmm...i thought about ancient.
Look like this
Power Weapon , Soul Trap , Shattershard.
If i understand correct we still get soul trap power when we kill with shattershard.
If this Haemy is in Grot unit that power weapon is an effective agoniser aginst MEQ on the Charge. 115pts.

He doesnt reach killiness of other non-coven units, but in coven list at least look able to damage and kill enemy star units.

I personally run
Archon w/ blast pistol, clonefield, Combat Drugs, Djinn blade, ghostplate, phantasm gernade Lancher ans a shadowdowfield
2x Hamey with scissorhand WWP
3x Grotesque 1x Liquifier 1x Aberration w/scissor hand
Raider

Yea a whopping 788pts but keeping Space wolves locked in combat for 6 turns equals win in my book.

I would drop the ancent for a archon since the archon will go first in combat. Use him to deal with any power weapon attacks against the hamie's or Grots.

I'm pretty sure a Shadowfield and a Clone Field on the same model is illegal, though.

Shadowfield and Clonefield legal and with 9 Brides with Shardnets....*Drools*

Dark Eldar codex page 84:
"*A model may not have both a shadow field and a clone field."

Local_Ork wrote:

T3 is kinda a bummer...

What is T3? Am I missing something? I didn't think the "Ancient" lowered your T - I gotta check that out.

My biggest "beef" about how some of us look at this combo in one facet - just looking at the assault capabilities is severely misleading and downright short sighted. I am not sure about the rest of you but half the fun or running coven units is getting perhaps the best flamer in the game and this unit can take 2 of them (and you do no need to upgrade the haemy to use it either).

Try this, take some dice, simulate 2 destructor templates against 10 marines before you charge. If the marines do not run away then let them hit first since you got no grenades and then swing away. By the time you figure out all the hits and wounds you should find the Ancient upgrade really only helps you with one additional hit attempt - that's it, not necessarily worth points for that.

If the fight continues to the next assault phase then the other part of the ancient upgrade helps by letting you hit first (because we all know that unless you got grenades the Ancients I means nothing here) if he/she survives the round. You got to ask yourself, would any opponent worth his salt allow that haemy/ancient to go un-targetted? Hell no. So unless you master where the ancient is going to line up against a marine squad (avoiding the powerfist or alot of marines) the Haemy would be focused on no matter what. Sure, furious charge is nice but it benefits both the haemy and the ancient the same way unless you got grenades.

So, does the haemy/ancient have any defenses or tricks to keep them alive? No, so you got to imagine the IC dieing - it has 2 wounds and their death means 2 combat resolution points.

I hope you catch my insight that the shooting phase is imperative to the assault, in fact, if the shooting phase is a bust I will often opt to not charge at all unless I got superior numbers on my side.

Me personally, I perfer 2 IC's in a 3 Grot squad. Urien or an Archon or another Haemy and although the Archon has a limited role in the shooting phase, he does make up for it with his PGL and combat ability. Urien's box with both the haemy and grots liquifier will often reduce the marines number to the point that any fighting back is anemic and unproductive (and if you still lose the haemy as he is the weakest link there is still an IC there to guide the fight).

Coven units rely on the shooting phase to bolster their assault phase - by all that is holy do not forget the shooting phase, just because you are not running trueborn doesn't mean you have to forsake the shooting phase altogether.

I'm with Kwi, two hq's and three grots.

Urien Rakarth or Archon
Haemonculus - liquifier, agonizer
Grotesque - aberration, flesh gauntlet
Grotesque - liquifier
Grotesque
Raider

I like the flesh gauntlet on the aberration, rather than the other options. I think it adds a little more versatility.

mukslinger wrote:

I'm with Kwi, two hq's and three grots.

Urien Rakarth or Archon
Haemonculus - liquifier, agonizer
Grotesque - aberration, flesh gauntlet
Grotesque - liquifier
Grotesque
Raider

I like the flesh gauntlet on the aberration, rather than the other options. I think it adds a little more versatility.

Exactly what I run.

I have experimented with the haemy with a venom blade as I find the agoniser just not making a difference for the points. With a Rakkarth or an Archon the haemy doesn't need a power weapon as the target is going to be dieing by armor-save. However, at least one agoniser looks better when you are running 2 haemys together, the power weapon becomes more of an insurance that somebody will at least die in that assault phase. Granted, Urien does not have a sure fire cc weapon but at least I know that whatever fails his armor save against him is going to die regardless of their wounds.

I really like the flesh gauntlet on the aberration, it has killed many IC's that just have the remote chance of failing an armor save. Dante and Vulkan come to mind immediately.

Sending the Grots straight into FC seems juicy, even though I'm not sure it's worth packing yet another 60+ pts onto an already expensive Raider. I do use the Archon/Haemy combo myself for Incubi, so I'm not opposed to the idea per se. I might try it out for gits and shiggles.

As for the Aberration, no scissorhand fans?

I've never thought of moving the agonizer off the haemy, I'll have to have a good look at that, and give it a try.

I'm running this unit this weekend in a friendly game with an old friend(He's playing CSM's)
-Archon with PGL, Clonefield, Combat Drugs
-4 Grots, Liquifier, Aberation with Venom Blade, Raider with Flickerfield.

I've never run this unit before, but it should be nothing short of fun with all of those Khorne Dog marines running around!

aberration with scissorhands vs fleshgauntlet

They both basically reroll wounds on stuff the aberration would hit.
SH: wound on 3's, +1 attack
FG: wound on 4's, instant death

I like the FG for a couple of reasons: It gets past fnp, it's sneaky like that, and it drops dudes dead. I find these a little more useful than an extra wound or two, in this particular unit.

I still like the FG more and this for the most part that if I am going to throw only 14 attacks (aberration + 2 grotesques) that if something has multiple wounds, I need it dead. Unlike the wracks that can dish out 30+ attacks, the grotesques need some assurance that multi-wound targets will die and not be able to return any attacks. Straight up against marines, sure, the scissorhand is fine. Facing Dante or Vulkan or a monstrous creature, the FG will be more handy. One thing is for sure, with FG and the right IC's this unit is a pretty decent mini-deathstar. It may be an expensive unit but it is a tough little bugger with full wound shenanigans and the FnP to boot.

Spend the 5 points extra, 6 poison attacks with re-roll is nice and with the added insurance of what you do kill stays killed.

Evil Space Elves wrote:

I'm running this unit this weekend in a friendly game with an old friend(He's playing CSM's)
-Archon with PGL, Clonefield, Combat Drugs
-4 Grots, Liquifier, Aberation with Venom Blade, Raider with Flickerfield.

I think if I had only 1 IC to spare to escort a squad of Grots it would be the Archon although the haemy offers another token for FC and an additional liquifier.

I know this upgrade isn't really optimized but on the Grotesques raider I like to sport the aether sails on it as I see it as a substitute for not having "fleet". I would "flat-out" the grot raider and then sail it within inches of the intended target (or centered on a number of possible targets) so that when the raider exploded or wrecked the grotesques would be within easy charge range even if in difficult terrain. Chances were more firepower would be poured into this grotesque unit while they sat there in 4+ cover with FnP, T5 and multiwound. After doing it 5 or 6 times I think I was only charged once as most players wouldn't charge (or runaway for that matter) them but rather rapid-fired. Even when they were charged the squad survived once the smoke cleared.

And although the Incubi have terrific qualities in what they do, the grotesques do offer one other facet that I think is worth mentioning and that is they pound armor pretty well. Granted they are not the best unit to spend anytime punching armor but there have been occasions where once they got to the enemy lines a vindicator would be too juicy to pass up. I think I have destroyed successfully more tanks with the Grotesques than I have with any other unit (I think they are batting 1000% everytime I have used them, 4/4 I think). For an elite spot, they are decently flexible.

I know I am making them sound great but as mentioned above, for a fun unit to mess around with they are quite entertaining - they are truly fun in my eyes.

lol, I'm with Kwi again. This unit gives me the evil-giggles when I play it. Throw them at junk and destroys stuff. The best distraction I have in my army.

Kinnay wrote:

Dark Eldar codex page 84:
"*A model may not have both a shadow field and a clone field."

Yea missed the fine print

It is sad that Grots don't have PW option of any kind. That would make them A LOT more useful.

Some quality answers, thanks.

A unit many laugh at and I love is Haem+WWP+Liqui + 4 grots + liqui in bare bones raider.

300ish points but people stop smiling so much when they see that unless they devote a CC specialist unit with PW (whom, ooooooops, happen to be tied uo with the wyches), it takes them FOREVER to actually bring these guys down.

And if they make it to the parking lot or the long fangs...its gonna be funny... for us

Yeah but hell, the last thing I want is another &^%&*$$ tar pit.

Maybe its my newbish qualities but cant grots wreck tanks? I mean with urien they're S7 on the charge, In my mind I would rather have the SH. Since they don't lose there close combat weapon they get 3 extra attacks. At S7 that's pretty potent. Am I wrong?

They will wreck reliably only stationary tanks.

So you have to worry how to make them so.