| NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers | |
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+17Sorrowshard Spiney Norman PartridgeKing Blasterchon Krovin-Rezh Urien Rakarth Local_Ork Nomic Raneth Sky Serpent Thor665 Shadows Revenge Grumpy Kwi Preacher Crisis_Vyper Gdead909 1++ 21 posters |
Night Shields and Flickerfields on Ravagers | Only Flickerfields | | 48% | [ 29 ] | Only Night Shields | | 16% | [ 10 ] | Both | | 36% | [ 22 ] | None | | 0% | [ 0 ] |
| Total Votes : 61 | | |
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1++ Hekatrix
Posts : 1036 Join date : 2011-06-27 Location : Sydney
| Subject: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 10:17 | |
| So I've been told that dropping NS from Rav's is "...the worst possible advice i've ever heard in a dark eldar thread" ......so I thought I'd throw it out to the true Archons of Commorragh.
NS & FF on Rav's - Yes/No
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Gdead909 Hellion
Posts : 64 Join date : 2011-12-31 Location : Tampa Fl
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 13:10 | |
| I say if you got the points to take them. I enjoy NS but I seemed to be a lone advocate sometimes. It wont help against long range firepower but it does against mid ranged. I also but FF on everything. | |
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Crisis_Vyper Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 227 Join date : 2011-08-03
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 13:51 | |
| - 1++ wrote:
- So I've been told that dropping NS from Rav's is "...the worst possible advice i've ever heard in a dark eldar thread" ......so I thought I'd throw it out to the true Archons of Commorragh.
NS & FF on Rav's - Yes/No
Those players are either very ignorant or very reliant on the NS for protecting their vehicles. It depends on the situation. If you can always get cover saves and a majority of your opponent's weapon range are 24" or less, then the NS would be a superior choice. However, if the board is as barren as day, and your opponent's weapon range are more than 24", then the flickerfield is a much better choice. IF we have both, it would be best, but nonetheless spending too much points on a paper-thin vehicle could be detrimental to the overall strengths of the list (several NS/FF upgrades will suck up points fast). Personally I would go with the Flickerfield all the time, as I play in several LGS and the terrain deployment and distribution between the stores are too errratic for me to rely on cover all the time. | |
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Preacher Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 145 Join date : 2011-05-24 Location : Derby, UK
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 14:02 | |
| I have a feeling where that comment came from but I shall not name names. Like Crisis_Vyper said, I would normally field my Ravagers with Flicker Fields rather than Night Shields. I prefer to trust my luck to the dice muses rather than the pointy sticks. I generally play at GWs and terrian can be rather hit and miss depending on where the staff have hidden the boxes of terrian. As such that inv save is more appealing to me that the extra distance. Lets face it, most armies will be able to out range the Ravager with something in the list. | |
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Grumpy Kwi Nightmare Doll on the Loose
Posts : 362 Join date : 2011-06-02 Location : San Jose, CA
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 15:01 | |
| I am a very big proponent of night shields but that doesn't sound like something I would say. My mantra with nightshields is either every skimmer gets them or none of them. Just putting them on a few makes target priority a little easier on the enemy and that is not what you want if you are relying on target saturation.
I put them on everything and if I have to save points badly I will reluctantly take it off a raider or two that are blitzing but that is with a heavy heart.
I would say if you are into getting an edge in saving a skimmer or two or just like having an extra skimmer in the later part of the game then you will have to work with the nightshields to make them work (actually knowing your opponents weapon ranges, knowing what can hit you and what can't with every move).
If you are into low cost MSU "rush" lists then do not bother, you are trying to be cheap as hell so why spend the points on shields when you can be getting more units? | |
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Shadows Revenge Hierarch of Tactica
Posts : 2587 Join date : 2011-08-10 Location : Bmore
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 16:06 | |
| Flickerfields I feel are a must. You are going to get those stay shots that are going to get through everything, and that 5++ is amazing. Sure, you can argue that your ravagers shouldnt be shot because they are being protected by cover, or atleast be obscured, but there are so many things that can outflank or scout or whatnot and get past your cover, that the safety net is nice. Nightshields are a hit or miss imho. This is coming from an oldblood who had no protection but our whits and our nightshields I love them, but they have their limitations. They arent going to outrange autocannons and their lilk, which is what kills us most. What they are good against is rapid fire weapons and meltas. This is an interesting perdicament, and I find that ravagers actually dont need them, as they should be far away from the main battle. | |
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Thor665 Archon
Posts : 5546 Join date : 2011-06-10 Location : Venice, FL
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 17:00 | |
| They do have some solid benefits versus Grey Knight Psyspam too.
In a general sense I consider them nice but not a 'must buy' by any stretch. | |
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Grumpy Kwi Nightmare Doll on the Loose
Posts : 362 Join date : 2011-06-02 Location : San Jose, CA
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 19:58 | |
| I think what sold me on them back in 4th edition was a habit I started when I used them. I kept asking my opponent why he made certain shots when they weren't obviously the best choice and all too often he would he would make the weaker choice in target selection because the unit he really wanted to shoot at "might" not have been in range.
That sells it for me, if I can reek havoc in my opponents shooting phase causing him to make less efficient choices every turn then I am all in for nightshields. It has become an art much like deploying wwp's and knowing how to get your cc units into combat. | |
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Sky Serpent Adrenalight Junkie
Posts : 2433 Join date : 2011-02-26 Location : Dais Of Administration
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 20:50 | |
| I personally find that that Night Shields don't protect me enough. Bolters won't hurt me and Meltaguns won't get near me, it's the Lascannons, Autocannons and Missile Launchers that destroy my Ravagers and they don't care about my Night Shields.
On the other hand, I like to get three shots off from my Ravagers and they're not guaranteed to kill what they are exposed to. I like Flickerfields.
I also added a poll. | |
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Raneth Sybarite
Posts : 467 Join date : 2011-06-12 Location : ridin' the Razor, cussin' at my Wyches
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Thu Jan 05 2012, 23:28 | |
| FFs for my Ravs. I don't dislike NS but I think it has more value on midfield firebases (like Blasterborn Venoms, lolz) | |
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1++ Hekatrix
Posts : 1036 Join date : 2011-06-27 Location : Sydney
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Jan 06 2012, 00:53 | |
| - Preacher wrote:
- I have a feeling where that comment came from but I shall not name names.
U can PM me if you want :p I imagine there are a tonne of DE players that think NS are an absolute must so I wanted to put it out there to the community. I'm partial I must admit, yes I can see the benefit - esp against DoA Melta Blood Angels and Psycannon Spam.......You potentially get another turn of shooting before they are within their (NS Reduced) range. | |
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Nomic Wych
Posts : 559 Join date : 2011-05-27 Location : Finland
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Jan 06 2012, 03:34 | |
| I buy all my vehicles flickerfields first, and if I have the points I'll also get night shileds, starting with Ravagers/Razorwings and Raiders that transport my melee units. To be hones, I haven't gotten that much use of nightshields, other than some inexperienced opponents overestimating their value and not shooting at things that might not be in range. However, most long range weapons don't particularly care if their range is cut by 6 inches. | |
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Local_Ork Fleshsculptor
Posts : 1500 Join date : 2011-05-26 Location : Near good fight!
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Jan 06 2012, 03:48 | |
| The-he-he, due to Polish ruling about cover (+5 cover behind/in forest, no matter how tall is vehicle with recent exclusion of models on flyer stand) I would not buy FF. Also with 12" move I would save 10 points (duck & cover tactic) simply because You don't need to get close. Terrain = my buddy.
NS is kind of joke actually due to Lascannons and Frag missiles 48" reach.
So none for me. On 3 HS slots I "get" 60 points, that buy my units additional Raider. Or 6 Flicker Fields to units that actually need to get close. | |
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Urien Rakarth Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 110 Join date : 2011-05-31
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Jan 06 2012, 11:58 | |
| I tend to lean towards NS on my Raiders as these are the vehicles that are going to be getting up close and personal, either for drive-bys with Kabalites or to disgorge Wyches, therefore knocking down Bolters ranges to 6" or 18" is a good thing. On my Ravagers I am expecting any weapons that are going to be targeting them to be 48" range minimum anyway so the Nightshields will do nothing to protect me if I am in range to shoot myself. Therefore FF go with the Ravagers. If I am fielding a Razorwing then I will kit them out with both, it's too expensive a model to not back it up with as much protection as I can and as I keep the stock missiles I like to think I've "saved" the point I use on shields. | |
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Krovin-Rezh Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 131 Join date : 2011-05-18 Location : Arizona
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Mon Jan 09 2012, 20:53 | |
| I think what's missing from this discussion is the likelihood of deep striking against a Dark Eldar force. It's the most common way I've seen opponents deal with our superior mobility, especially when we are using webway portals. And when the opponent deep strikes more, he tends more toward the melta and less toward the lascannon. This helps to give the night shield more value in armies that see these counter-tactics, because it forces riskier arrivals (even with drop pods at times) and more missed ranges.
I also want to second Kwi's thought on the mind game. There are times when being able to make your opponent lose confidence in his newly reduced range can be a real game saver.
My personal army typically has two Ravagers with NS hiding near the back edge behind cover. Flickerfields are not as necessary, but I still like to take them if I have extra points. | |
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Blasterchon Slave
Posts : 5 Join date : 2012-01-08
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Mar 02 2012, 08:02 | |
| In a 2K list I run both because I have the points to do so. I also run NS on my Blaterborn Venoms in my 2K list as well. This seems to give my paper boats a slightly better chance of survival. It is always nice to say "check your range, I have night shields" However, if I have to choose FF is always on all mech on every list I run | |
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PartridgeKing Sybarite
Posts : 253 Join date : 2011-11-08
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Mar 02 2012, 08:14 | |
| Usually I've put both Night Shields & Flickers on my Ravagers. I like having the save, so Flickers end up being a must - especially when Guard tend to have the range to not worry about the Nights. Then again there have been a few key moments when my Ravager has survived &/or completely thrown off my opponents game plan, cause they'd not realised they weren't in range due to the Night Shields. On boards with loads of terrain I've often found the need to play quite aggressively with my Ravager, and thus Nights come into their own vs Guard Melta-Vet's etc.
If I can only afford one however I'm not sure, originally I would have said Flickers, nowadays I'd probably either use both or none on the Ravager - but that's likely unwise.
Raiders I'm still trying to get the optimum, and I've not really seen Nights be effective on Raiders, though usually that's cause it's all the long range stuff that's trying to hit them and at that point the Night Shield doesn't make a difference. And I'm usually going flat-out or behind something, so Flickers become less relevant. | |
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Spiney Norman Hellion
Posts : 57 Join date : 2011-08-09
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Fri Mar 02 2012, 22:29 | |
| I'm currently running two ravagers and a razor wing as my HS choices, generally speaking I take flickrfields on all, then if I have the points the razor wing gets night shields, then if I still have points to play with the ravies get night shields too. I guess I kinda view night shields as a luxury rather than a necessity, whereas flickers are almost part of the deal when you take a DE vehicle. I guess the difference is that flickers work equally well against anything, but there are too many guns that have plenty of range to spare that NS can't touch.
I'd argue that night shields give more benefit to A10 vehicles anyway, most of the time my NS have actually made a difference was by getting me out of double tap range of bolters since most actual anti-tank weapons are long enough range not to care (and it's not like meltas need their 2D6 to down even a ravager). | |
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Sorrowshard Sybarite
Posts : 361 Join date : 2011-05-31
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Sat Mar 03 2012, 21:24 | |
| Dunno, FF's on everything to be honest , its always there and even works in CC.
The NF is circumstantial at best , most of the time they are either too near or have enough range anyway for the NF's to make the blindest difference, having both is worrisome in that a raider is already a bit dear at 60 points , making it 80 points is just...well. so Ill go for the ones that always provide value, FF's are great on those sparse boards you com across.
I will put NF's on valuable stuff, like say a voidraven or Tantalus as if they work it's a big payoff. | |
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Kieran Venoxis Slave
Posts : 15 Join date : 2012-02-26 Location : Dallas, Tx
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Sun Mar 04 2012, 23:34 | |
| I think its justifiable to take both on Ravagers because unlike the Raider where to take both is almost a 50% increase in the cost of the model Ravagers are harder to come by and if you can spend 20pts to get an extra round of shooting off its worth it. Its certainly not guaranteed but its certainly debatable that the extra protection could win you the game if you get off that last shot to take out that Dread or Land Raider.
Hard to say but as a new DE Im going to try it and hopefully I can report on its effectiveness or lack there of soon. | |
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Marquis Vaulkhere Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 207 Join date : 2011-11-01 Location : Commorragh
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Mon Mar 05 2012, 00:39 | |
| For the past few months I have taken both on my ravagers and not once has my night shield stopped them from shooting at me. I am going to try them without for the extra 30 point and get more shooting. | |
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Torpedo Vegas Resident Shadowseer
Posts : 512 Join date : 2011-05-15 Location : Santa Rosa Beach, Florida
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Mon Mar 05 2012, 03:16 | |
| I prefer Flicker Fields, as Ravergs don't really have that great of a range compared to other anti tank platforms (Battle Cannons, Nova Cannons, Lascannons, etc), so if I am close enough to shoot, they'll probably be able to shoot back at me, and I prefer to have a bit of insurance in the form of flickerfields. | |
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Thor665 Archon
Posts : 5546 Join date : 2011-06-10 Location : Venice, FL
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Mon Mar 05 2012, 03:31 | |
| I don't mind Nightshields, i think they have lots of value in them...though I'll admit they rarely show up in my lists simply because I think I can find a better use for the points than putting it on all the vehicles. At higher point values when my Force Org starts getting maxed out is when they're likely to show up. | |
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Grub Wych
Posts : 823 Join date : 2011-09-04
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Wed Mar 07 2012, 11:52 | |
| On raiders, FF, on ravagers, it depends who your playing. Always FF, against anything with heavy weapons at max 36" range NS are great. Against lascannon builds or Tau railgun blockades less useful. | |
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Shadows Revenge Hierarch of Tactica
Posts : 2587 Join date : 2011-08-10 Location : Bmore
| Subject: Re: NightShields and Flickerfields on Ravagers Wed Mar 07 2012, 14:57 | |
| Im not going to lie Im still partial to NS. I guess that because that Im so used to them and against the hordes of GK and Cron players they work wonderfully. That being said I normally dont field them competitively because I do venomspam, and that 90 points can be put to good use elsewhere. That being said in fun games, sure why not throw some on. You will be supprised at how much it saves | |
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