1850 Starter Wych Cult Army

Greetings everyone!

I am new across the board to the hobby, and (some) of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. After playing a SM army against an ork assault army, I realized quickly that my race of choice was either Eldar or Dark Eldar. I absolutely love the finesse of the Eldar armies, and I'm perfectly okay with losing several times in order to get it down. I opted for the Dark Eldar, as they just fit my feel and style much more than the Eldar.

There are several concerns with my particular build, because I haven't played it, built it, or even own all of it yet. I'd love to see what I can do in order to minimize the number of "Buy more of the things because you won't use what you have."

I worry if I can handle CC well enough with my swarm of wyches, and I'm equally concerned if I have enough Lances to really pop transports. I'm expecting my wyches to pull double duty as AI as well as some AT.

I'd like the ability to run a DSing army as well as a normal, deploy and rush the line. That, and with a wych heavy army, I thought the Duke (Duchess in my army.) would serve me well in getting a good drug roll.

I'm also being as explicit as possible with my point use. This is partially as a double check because I'm new, and also as a way for the point spread to be understood.

The list:
HQ: 245 pts
Dark Eldar Succubus: 90
Haywire Grenades:, Agonizer:

Duchess Sliscus
Total: 150

Troops: 906 pts.
Kabalite Warriors x 10
-Splinter Cannon, Raider Flickerfield, Splinter Racks, Nightshields
Total: 190

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 238

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 238

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 238

Heavy Support: 375
Ravager x 3
Nightshields, Flickerfields:
Total: 375

Elite:
Trueborn x 4
2 Shardcarbines, 2 Splinter cannons, plasma grenades x 4, Venom, Night shields
Total: 147

Total used points: 1668
Unused points: 182

Things I'm thinking about:
I don't care for Trueborn to fill elite slots, unless I can justify killing my full raider of warriors to use them. They are mostly there to deploy for my Duchess, and to offer as much AI/AT as the unit can possibly offer. The Splinter racks are there solely to make sure they can at least try to fry any infantry they can reach, should they get lucky. I also took both Nightshields and flickerfiields on their Raider, Am I overkilling with this? I just suspect it will throw people for a loop, and leave them only in range of Lascannons/rockets, which I realize will absolutely pop them, but I don't see any point in running the risk that something small will pop them (I watched a storm bolter pop something with similar armor as a Raider in the game I played. Just making them be unable to shoot would be wonderful. That or bring them into charging range if they pop me.)

The Ravagers function as my AT. Is a Razerwing worth it to fill in holes for my AI as well as some AT? I hear they are bullet magnets. Are the Nightshields useful on the Ravagers? Or am I wasting points there

I'm not sure if Scourges would be more useful than using some Elite slots. I don't care for Hellions, and Reavers are "meh" to me. I REALLY want to take Harlequins, but I don't know if they serve a good purpose in this army at all. Is there a good way to incorporate them? If so, How? (They fit in great with my "In your face" style. Not to mention I love Veil of Tears.)
Effectively, I'm torn between Scourges and Harlequins (Or Bloodbrides, but I don't know if they would perform well. Especially with as CC heavy as I am already.)

If I choose to Deepstrike via the Duchess (Duke), I cannot move, but I can disembark on that turn, correct?
Also, if I scatter into enemy troops, do I mishap and lose the entire unit? I plan to attach the Duchess to the Warriors at the start, but once the fray begins, I was hoping to latch her onto a CC group. Is this begging for death? Or should I craft her to be with my Warriors at all times?

I'm sorry for such a terribly long first post. And I appreciate any and all input, Thanks!

The Posting of individual point costs is forbidden. Please take time to read the Forum Rules and understand them before continuing to post - Baron Tordeck

EDIT2: Thank you for taking the time out to clear it for me, and very sorry for the hassle. Re-reading the rules now.
EDIT3: Updated the list to the current iteration via Baron's comments.

lonephoenix wrote:

The list:
HQ
Dark Eldar Succubus
-Haywire Grenades:
-Agonizer:
-VB (Is this able to be done? I don't see a reason why not from the Codex.): you can by why would you want to
Total: 95

Duchess Sliscus
Total: 150

FOC Section Total: 245

Troops:
Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix:
-Hekatrix Agonizer:
-Shardnet + Impaler: x 2
-Hydra Gauntlets:
-Haywires:
-Dedicated Raider:
-Raider Flickerfield:
Total: 240

Kabalite Warriors (Duchess attaches to this group in deployment.) x 9
-Dark Lance:
-Splinter Cannon: both of these options are illegal, you must have 10 in the unit to get either a DL or a SC, and then you may only have one or the other not both
-Raider:
-Raider Flickerfield:
-Raider Splinter Racks:
-Raider Nightshields:
Total: 206

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix:
-Hekatrix Agonizer:
-Shardnet + Impaler: x 2
-Hydra Gauntlets: (Should I consider swapping in Razor Flails here?)
-Haywires:
-Dedicated Raider:
-Raider Flickerfield:
Total: 240

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix:
-Hekatrix Agonizer:
-Shardnet + Impaler: x 2
-Hydra Gauntlets: (Should I consider swapping in Razor Flails here?)
-Haywires:
-Dedicated Raider:
-Raider Flickerfield:
Total: 240

FOC Section total: 922

Heavy Support

Ravager
-Nightshields:
-Flickerfields:
Total: 125

Ravager
-Nightshields:
-Flickerfields:
Total: 125

Ravager
-Nightshields:
-Flickerfields:
Total: 125

FOC Section total: 375

Total used points: 1546
Unused points: 304

Start with the changes I made in green, then go from there.

HQ: 245 pts
Dark Eldar Succubus: 90
Haywire Grenades:, Agonizer:

Duchess Sliscus
Total: 150

Troops: 906 pts.
Kabalite Warriors x 10
-Splinter Cannon, Raider Flickerfield, Splinter Racks, Nightshields
Total: 190

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 238

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 238

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 238

Heavy Support: 375
Ravager x 3
Nightshields, Flickerfields:
Total: 375

Elite:
Trueborn x 4
2 Shardcarbines, 2 Splinter cannons, plasma grenades x 4, Venom, Night shields
Total: 147

Total used points: 1668
Unused points: 182
--------
I updated this based on Baron Tordeck's suggestions, killing off the VB on the Succ, and have a pair of Shardnets for each wych squad. (I assume this makes them more tanky, considering I'm going to be using them as my main focus of attack. I also repaired my failure about the SC and DL in a single Warrior squad. I opted for the SC, to focus them on burning down infantry, and hopefully putting enough wounds onto MEQs to soften them for the wyches. Thanks for pointing those out!

I have access to 13 DLs for my AT. With my remaining points, I can get additional AI in the form of scourges, or should I consider some of my elite options?

The issue with putting duchess in the unit of warriors in now they wont fit in the raider when it comes time to deploy. Ive found that the duchess in a unit of 4 trueborn w/ 2 shard carbines and 2 splinter cannons in a venom makes for an incredibly good AI unit.

Baron Tordeck wrote:

The issue with putting duchess in the unit of warriors in now they wont fit in the raider when it comes time to deploy. Ive found that the duchess in a unit of 4 trueborn w/ 2 shard carbines and 2 splinter cannons in a venom makes for an incredibly good AI unit.

I didn't think about the raider no longer being viable... Another excellent catch. I'm sorry for the new-player shining off so much, Thank you!

That's something worth trying, and I like the way I can write up fluff for that particular setup as well!

Would I be best to keep the current troop arrangement, and just add in a group of Trueborns to carry the Duchess around? I'm a little bit nervous about running around with 4 groups of wyches, because I could only hold a single point with that set up, but if I kept the Warriors, I think I'd have plenty of AI to handle most things I find, especially in tandem with the Trueborn.

How badly would I hurt myself if I dropped the Warriors for another group of wyches?

I would personally break up the warriors into 2 units of 5 w/ blaster in venoms w/ 2nd cannon, and add the TB unit I mentioned before. It rounds out the list a bit and gives you a bit of AT and AI punch in the shooting phase.

FLuff wise this works as Duke brings the TB Warriors and Ravagers to the party while the Succubus brings teh wychs

I went ahead and tried to implement the ideas brought up by Tordeck... and I think I may have an excellently balanced list.

I had missed the fact that my Succ HQ has absolutely no delivery mechanism, so I added in a group of Bloodbrides on a VERY lightly equipped Venom, whose solely purpose will be to Deepstrike her into the fray and possibly to land alpha strikes. I don't think I trust Flickers enough to save her for long enough to survive more than a single pass, though. There also aren't enough points left to offer three brides as anything more than wound absorbers.

Should I possibly consider using a group of Harlequins as a "transport" for my Succubus instead?

The list is as follows:

HQ: 240 pts
Dark Eldar Succubus: 90
Haywire Grenades:, Agonizer:

Duchess Sliscus
Total: 150

Troops: 990 pts.
Kabalite Warriors x 5
-Blaster, Venom, Venom Splinter Cannon, Nightshields
Total: 135

Kabalite Warriors x 5
-Blaster, Venom, Venom Splinter Cannon, Nightshields
Total: 135

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 240

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 240

Wyches x 10
-Hekatrix, Hekatrix Agonizer, Shardnet + Impaler, Haywires, Dedicated Raider, Flickerfield
Total: 240

Heavy Support: 375
Ravager x 3
Nightshields, Flickerfields:
Total: 375

Elite: 241
Trueborn x 4
2 Shardcarbines, 2 Splinter cannons, plasma grenades x 4, Venom, Night shields
Total: 147

Bloodbrides x 3
Venom
Total: 94

Total used points: 1846
Unused points: 4

How does every feel that this would fare for a beginner?

Goals/Play-style: Deepstrike in the majority on an opponent who goes first and is either reserving or out of reach.
TB tear into anything dangerous that isn't Mech.
The Ravagers focus down transports and Mech that can't be bothered by the wyches.
Warriors thin ranks on their Venoms and wyches clean up the mess.
Wyches focus down dangerous mechs (Or wrap up Dreads.) as well as tie up important shooters/ICs.

Duchess acts as an elite murder squad on her Venom.
Succubus and her Brides will Deep strike in, disembark and Alpha strike something that absolutely cannot live to see the next turn.

If you were to remove all the NS, the plasma grenades from the TB and the Succubus's HWG you could turn that bride unit into 3 grots in a raider w/ ff. Its a little tougher unit that could protect the Succubus better.

Other than that bride unit that i just dont see working out well, i think the list is a nice balance of AI and AT.

Remember you still cant assault the turn you DS with Duke's special rule because if the transport DS, the unit inside counts as DS as well. So while there is no alpha striking with BB and Succubus, it doesnt look too bad. Just be careful and dont trust DS everything. We dont have a way to manipulate reserves, so you will draw the bad straw sometimes and get nothing out when you need it.

You sure about that? if he was using retrofires that would be correct. Since he is not there is nothing stopping him from doing so. At least thats how its ruled in my neck of the woods.

Baron Tordeck wrote:

You sure about that? if he was using retrofires that would be correct. Since he is not there is nothing stopping him from doing so. At least thats how its ruled in my neck of the woods.

I could understand it applying to the model doing the deep striking (IE: Transport) but since I'm clearly the new player here, I'm not entirely sure one way or the next, if that deep-strike applies to the transport's contained units. Maybe I should ask the Rules sub-forum about this?

I know with Retrofire jets you can't even disembark, but the Duke makes it apply as a "normal" deepstrike, thus you can disembark.

NVM, he is right, i was thinking about disembark and shoot, a tactic used by Blasterborn often. But no you cant DS and assault.

Quote :

In that units assault phase however, it may not launch an assault (even if they have the fleet special rule), unless clearly stated in their special rules - they are too disrupted by their deepstrike move.

So, they can disembark, and fire, but not assault. I think another example of rules not being well thought out, this is also what kills 'nids...

One game while playing as 'nids, I spored 3 'fex, 2 zoas, and a doom into a tank marine force at the start of turn 2... by the end of turn 2, i had killed nothing, and had a grand total of one doom left...

Baron Tordeck wrote:

If you were to remove all the NS, the plasma grenades from the TB and the Succubus's HWG you could turn that bride unit into 3 grots in a raider w/ ff. Its a little tougher unit that could protect the Succubus better.

Other than that bride unit that i just dont see working out well, i think the list is a nice balance of AI and AT.

On this note:

In your experiences (Everyone present), Do Night shields really add much to the lifespan of Venoms? I know they get their Flickers, but I was under the impression that the extra loss of range could really help them survive some extra fire.

I think the NSes may be worth it on the Ravagers, since the only things plucking them off would be the 36" range stuff, and any DSers. (We have a few people who run drop pod armies, but not many. And we have at least one Daemon player.)

However, I'm not really "into" the grots, as unit/model, and I would still rather find a different model to escort the Succ. That's partially why I mentioned the Harles, so I can walk up to people, but it doesn't let me DS if I really need it. (I plan to use DS as an option, more than as a primary deployment mechanism.)

Would the be another unit that would be a good buddy for my Succ that I could bring in over any of the Coven units? (I realize I'm being excessively picky here. And if there really isn't a good alternative, I can accept that as well.) We don't really have much in the way of 2 wound models, which would be perfect. Grots running around with 3 would definitely keep her alive much longer.

Lascannon, Autocannon, Missle Launcher = 48"
48" - 6" = 42"

Dark Lance = 36"

42">36"

If we are in range so are they.

NS are only good against denying Melta, and Rapid Fire

Putting an IC into a harlie unit negates all of what makes harlies kewl (cept for veil of course)

With the points you have remaining and not totally reworking your list. I still feel that Grots are the best option for her. (it also nets you an extra DL)

Quote :

Putting an IC into a harlie unit negates all of what makes harlies kewl (cept for veil of course)

Please elaborate... I think running Baron with harlies would be pretty nasty, actually... They still get their hit and run, and in cover they get a 3+ cover save... idk...

They would still lose their ignore terrain effect though.

Do the Harlequins also lose their Hit and Run with an IC?

I would love the opportunity to field Harlequins, but they simply might not be viable unless I roll at 2000. (Even then, I wonder if I could even really squeeze them in.)

I'll be play in a campaign that has a growing point count across at least five games, from 500 to 2000 (I believe it progress as follows: 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000)

My 500 core will be staying with me regardless.
That said, I'll be implementing in the Wych cult first, then adding in pieces of the Kabals as I need it. (Probably the TB first. Then the other Kabalites along the way. Ravagers will likely be second.)

I'm going to play with removing the night shields from everything, Which should free me up to 167 points removing everything that Baron Tordeck had mentioned. Are Grots my best option here for the time? Or could I consider sticking something on a Venom?

If the IC doesnt have Hit and Run then yes they would lose it (pretty sure they keep FC though. might be wrong on that one. Ive never run harlies), along with flip belt moves.

That's unfortunate, but I may still be able to use Veil as a moving device.

Hopefully, I would be able to run the Harles around cover, to the melee, detach my IC from the Harles during the move phase before the main assault, and attach the Succ to a Wych unit, and roam from there.

However, I think the ideal situation may still be either using Grots in a Raider, or something else with a Venom.

if you attach a jump IC to the harlies (looking mainly at regular eldar on this one), they should still be able to use their ignore terrain effect, just the IC would have to have to roll dangerous terrain when he moved...

the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model. sure they would ignore the terrain but the IC would still have to roll and potentially cripple the speed of the unit.

But a Jump Inf IC ignores terrain as well, with the exception that it has to take a dangerous terrain test when he takes off and lands...

But DE dont have jump ICs so your point is mute. (and even if we did then you would be going a max of 6" a turn thereby negating the whole point of having a JP)

anyway weve derailed this thread far enough. back on topic.

Is there a lot of Space Wolves players in your area? Cause i think this list will have some serious problems with Mechanised wolves.
You may trim some points by disposing of succubi and remove some upgrades to get 3 Haemy to the Wyches.

FnP wyches are much more all-round and usefull unit, vanilla wyches bounce from grey hunters and FnP ones dont die all when raider is blown.

Quote :

But DE dont have jump ICs so your point is mute. (and even if we did then you would be going a max of 6" a turn thereby negating the whole point of having a JP)

What what? )) We do have Jump IC, with Hit'n'Run even )
Damn thats even funny, i dont even know what unit Baron cant upgrade )) Helions, Beasts, Scourges, Harlies, Grots, Reavers to some extent, large wych squads. And thats all for 105 points. Crazy IC.

He is our magical way of bringing 3+ FnP and grenades to our squishy squads.