DE Deathstars

Eldur wrote:

So maybe we should use different words for what we differently understand.... for me, a true deathstar (without quotation marks) is a unit that carries a heavy duty in your army because you have invested a lot of points in making it as powerfull as it can be (and choosed wisely its options) and in return you get...

1)A lot of offensive power (so your enemy must kill it or ran away from it before it does its work)

and/or

2) A lot of Defensive power (through saves and/or numbers)


I

This is true, there are deathstars like nob bikers, jetseers, and Straken's squad. I would agree that points expenditure defines it to an extent, hence why only fools use them in smaller games. But once again, Dark Eldar really don't have a unit outside Incubi that fill this role, since the army is so focused on combined torrenting fire to work. (Damage output from other individual units is just too low in comparison to Incubi, which actually shatter units when they charge)

incubi cant take punishment

Enfernux wrote:

incubi cant take punishment

I've found Incubi to be quite survivable, and I don't like to go on a raid without them. They are good at backing up my Archon, and when paired with a HQ the Incubi become even scarier, as you can allocate all of the wounds on a Shadowfield or Clonefield, which absorbs most of the saves(Which can sometimes backfire). Even after that they have a 3+ save.
They can quickly gain FNP, which makes them even more survivable.

how meny shots does it take to take down a 10 terminator squad? TH/SS
ho meny does it take to kill a 10 inqubi squad?
I'll compare ap2 shots, for termies have 2+ AS
10 shots from a disintegrator kill 1.48 termies, so for a 10 termi squad: 67.6 shots. Thats a lot.
10 shots from a disintegrator kill 5.6 incubi, so about 20 shots are enough. Difference? 1/3, points: 10 termies base are 400, 10 incubi are 220, so a bit over half the base cost of a marine death star. Ow, they are on foot, for a LR can only hold 5...except for the crusader, that can hold 10...huh? Incu survivable...they are as survivable as a 10 man simple marine squad...only marines dont all have pw.

First, I'll concede that as a unit by itself, with no HQ to form a deathstar, is not really impressive compared to a plain Terminator squad.

You compare them to Terminators, yet you miss the fact that the Incubi are one of our most survivable units, going off of their base save, and of course they are as survivable as a 10 man Marine squad, they essentially have power armour. They are resiliant for DE, and I believe it to be unfair to compare them to ten Terminators, as a ten man Terminator squad would cost way more than a ten man Incubus squad. Terminators are stronger and better at surviving, yet they lack speed and cost a lot of points.
I'm not sure how much they cost (so please correct me if I am wrong), but a five man Terminator squad is somewhere in the region of 200 points. You can have nine Incubi for 198 points, so what they lack in armour compared to a SM deathstar they can make up with numbers.
Each one has a power weapon, and two attacks. So, in an eight man squad with, I'll just say two Archons, for the sake of making some sort of deathstar, it would have 24 Power weapon hits. 16 of these are strength 4 and 8 of them wound on a 4+.
Points wise, if a Termie squad was fitted with a Chapter Master or a Chaplain to get them to be close on points, I think that the Incubi squad with their Archons with Clonefields would do better.
Even though they may not last as long as Terminators by themselves I do not think that it is right to say that they aren't survivable, especially when compared to some things in our army.

Other armies may have better, more survivable units, but for the DE, the Incubus squad is one of the most survivable we have, and make a great deathstar when paired with HQ's to support them.

Cavash wrote:

They are good at backing up my Archon, and when paired with a HQ the Incubi become even scarier, as you can allocate all of the wounds on a Shadowfield or Clonefield, which absorbs most of the saves(Which can sometimes backfire).

This is probably not playing the rules correctly. In close combat, your Archon and your Incubi count as two separate units, so your opponent is essentially being multi-assaulted. Models in base-to-base with the Archon and no Incubi must attack the Archon, and models within 2" of those in base-to-base of the Archon can direct their attacks against him. Ditto for the Incubi- if a model is only in base-to-base with an Incubus, or it's out of base-to-base and only within 2" of a model next to an Incubus, it attacks the Incubi squad.

There are clever ways around this- most of them involve Wyches or narrow assault facings.

Oh yeah, sorry, I play odd rules with the local people. Sometimes I forget that they aren't correct by the rulebook.

Your Archon has been paid the treasure of a Shadow Field, yet, he is wounded! Why? BECAUSE HE IS A RIVER TO HIS PEOPLE!

Cavash, i didnt say that they werent our most survivable choice, i said, compared to other DS unites, they are not as survivable. For only a little over half the cost as a termie squad, they are less survivable by 1/3. S4 pw attacks? Termies with lightning claws - they reroll fail to wounds. S8 pw attacks 3++? Hammernators.

So let me compare Terminator and Grotesque resilience in the same way.

10 disintegrator at BS4 kill 1.48 SS terminators or 2.96 normal terminators
10 disintegrators at BS4 kill 1.11 Grotesques (3.33 wounds)

even further... let's compare them with Draigowing!!

10 dark light shots at BS4 Instakill 3.7 paladins (or 5++ terminators)
10 dark light shots at BS4 kill 1.85 SS terminators (better shoot them with splinter cannons LOL)
10 dark light shots at BS4 kill 1.85 Grotesques (5.55 wounds)
... the same for Lascannons

10 missiles (S8 AP3) kill 0.93 TEQs (also Instakilled paladins)
10 missiles kill 0.92 Grotesques (2,77 wounds)

...The only moment when grotesques become more vulnerable is with S10 weapons ( f*** you Imperial Guard... , oh and Ork nobs with Klaws on the charge...)

and... Small arms fire?

10 bolter shots at BS4 kill 0.55 TEQs (or 0.27 paladins)
10 bolter shots at BS4 kill 0.37 Grotesques (1.11 wounds)


SOOOOO, to me, Grotesques (with or without IC added) are better Deathstars than Incubi. They ARE our Deathstars. I know, no power weapons, but a lot of S5-7 (depending of Urien) attacks.. if you want PW, add some Haemonculi/Archon/succubi with Agonisers.. AND AVOID S10!!!

disint vs normal termies only 2.22 but noones going to bring normal termies, only th/ss if they are smart.

disintegrators cause 4.44 wounds on grotesques 10 shots 4s to hit 4s to wound and no armor or fnp.

10 missiles s8ap3bs4 1.11 wounds on grots.

but you forget: grots have ld6 with an abberation? Shoot, cause 1 causualty and they run - average roll 7. you need an IC in there to boost that.

So compareing grots to incu - 5 incu vs 5 grots no charge no extra, just 5 incu vs 5 grots.
incu ws5, grots ws4, incu 10 hits, gorts 15.
incu hit first for higher init. need 3s to hit, 5s to wound. 2.22 unsaveable.
grots hit back needing 4s to hit, 3s to wound. 5 saveable 3+ 1.66 unsaved.

grots lost 2 to one, ld 5-2 ld3 run, average init roll incu 3 grots 4, 8vs 8, equal so grots destroyed.

Edit: and for less points i might ad, for 5 incu cost 110, 5 grots 175. I'll go with incu.

4s to Hit?????

Of course, I will Always put 1-2 IC in that squad. Even more, I'd put Urien and make them Fearless with 3PT (and S6, 7 on the charge )...

I wont use 5 grots, only 4 with 2 IC on Raider, or 10 and ICs on foot (webway list, they work fine as a portal carrier squad). Go big or go home.

I won't compare them to Incubi that way... F*** i will,

4 grotees, Aberration, scissorhands, haemonculi, agoniser
10 Incubi, Klaivex, demiklaives

...more or less same cost...

Incubi charge
7.3 wounds from them included demiklaive klaivex with S5
remaining grotees and Haemonculi... 2.16 dead incubi
Incubi win


Grotees charge
same initiatives...
Incubi do 5 wounds
Groteesand haem do 3.8 unsaved wounds
Incubi win


So you're right, Incubi have more Offensive Power. BUT as I stated before, Grotees have far more resilience against shooting... That's the reason why I'd put 10 of them on foot and with ICs... Large investment, but that's a Deathstar!!

Because if you compare Deathstar units to other good combat units point-to point, probably it will be more equal fight.... for example let 18 incubi charge 10 SS termies....

18 incu vs 10 hammernator? 6 termies vs 4.16 incu...incu win
but 18 incu aint that survivable as 10 nators, although points wise they are nearly the same.
i just compared them for you to see, a good DEldar tactician will dictate, where he wants to attack, so he WILL avoid your "DS" until its necessary to obliterate them.
A foot coven army, which is great - BRAAAAAAAAAINS! - will not have a chance to dictate, so will be out maneuvered, and will be hit hard by other DS. But its to hot here for me to do relevant thinking, so this is all the force i can muster to forum

Eldur wrote:

...The only moment when grotesques become more vulnerable is with S10 weapons ( f*** you Imperial Guard... , oh and Ork nobs with Klaws on the charge...)

Just would like to point out that Ork Nobz are S9 with a power klaw, as all strength bonuses (i.e FC) are added after the double from a powerfist (except for GKs... but as we all know, they break all the rules because they are Kewl... with a captial K)

secondly you guys are comparing apples to oranges at this point. No one runs 10 TH/SS termies on foot in this edition because of it being slow and not scoring. Heck, the only reason Dragiowing even works is all the KPs tied up in it and its scoring. Also they have different jobs. TH/SS termies are made to be a rock to which the entire army stands around. Incubi are a scalpel that go in, kill, and get out of dodge quickly. The closest thing we have to TH/SS termies are grots, which again serve a different purpose. The closet thing we have to TH/SS termies I would say are bloodbrides, because they can tie up almost anything in combat forever, and are almost as survivable. Now compare the point cost there... and we will see a huge difference.

shadows revenge wrote:

The closet thing we have to TH/SS termies I would say are bloodbrides

Except that's not even remotely true... BB's have a 4++ save in CC, regardless of what they are being hit with, while termies have a 2+/3++ save, depending on whether or not the attack they are defending bypasses armor or not. That in itself is a HUGE difference, but it goes beyond that. Every single termie has a power weapon, so no normal armor saves, no FNP... whereas ONLY a single BB can take a power weapon, and costs 20 points to do so. Also, the S8 hits vs S3 hits...

Being completely honest, we don't have anything that equals termies, really. The closest we WOULD have would be Incubi, and those are a load of fail (or not, I just don't like them)...

Point cost? (for TH/SS Termies)
Vanilla Termie - 40pts
Dark Angel Termie - 43pts
Black Templar Termie - 34 pts (with either FC or Tank Hunter upgrade, 31 otherwise)
Space Wolves - 63 (wolfguard) or 85 (lonewolf)
Blood Angels - 45 pts
Gray Knights - 40 pts (as a troop) or 55 (for pallies) - the one thing we have against GK is that they cant take Storm Shields.

Most of these have special rules that cost 2 or 3 points/model and can make them considerably better... At their best, they cost only 12 points more than our most heavily armored squad and come stock with (probably) furious charge. I'm not going to mathhammer it out, but im pretty sure that an equal point cost of BT termies against wyches, bloodbrides, incubi, or grots would nom them up without a second thought... Regardless, they should have no problem winning combat resolution and making you run away... worst case scenario is that they do enough damage to make you flee off the board...

And many of these armies can take them as troop choices as well... >.>

Ruke wrote:

Point cost? (for TH/SS Termies)
Vanilla Termie - 40pts
Dark Angel Termie - 43pts
Black Templar Termie - 34 pts (with either FC or Tank Hunter upgrade, 31 otherwise)
Space Wolves - 63 (wolfguard) or 85 (lonewolf)
Blood Angels - 45 pts
Gray Knights - 40 pts (as a troop) or 55 (for pallies) - the one thing we have against GK is that they cant take Storm Shields.

Loads of points though! I would say: just shoot the b*stards.

@ Tiresias: you cant, or will take all your firepower to do so, so his other nasties stay safe, and thats not what we want.

Since we are playing math hammer... Termies can be shot off the board with any splinter weapon available...

It takes 18 shots (12 hits, 6 wounds, 1 failed save) to kill a single, 1 wound model with a 2+ save. With this in mind, it's going to take between 7 and 8 venoms to kill 5 termies.

Shooting dark light? 27 dark light shots nets 18 hits, 15 wounds and 5 failed 3++ saves.

My 1850 achieves the splinter volley with ease and can almost manage the DL one in a single turn. You want targets for your splinter weapons so it's hardly a waste to shoot them...

Yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply that Termies just cant die, but you have to focus a TON of fire in order to take down a 5 man TH/SS squad, and a lot of the armies dont have standard TH/SS... for example, space wolves can take almost any space marine equipment in any combination... so you can have a 5 termie squad... give each of them a cyclone missile launcher, storm shield, frost blade and melta bombs for a nifty 93 points apiece... sure they cost a ton and a half, but thats so much hurt that you can put on your opponent from any range... they're likely to take down almost any vehicle in a single turn, especially ours, and a 5 man squad has the ability to put out 10 small blast templates. In close combat they're considered to be str 5 with power weapons and all in all have a 2+/3++ save. Sick.

What I was trying to put across was that point for point, termies are a better platform across most space marine armies than are any of our CC models.

Except to get 1 cyclone you need 5 wolf guard... And the max unit size will not allow you 5 heavy weapons...

Plus the wound allocation rules mean nothing as they are 1 wound anyway and while they can affect the table at any range, it's so many points which can only target 1 thing... Overkill

so you concentrate all your firepower to take down the termies, next round the long fangs, land raider, predators and wolfriders are going to criple your army, for you didnt do anything against them. 3 longfangs=3 destroyed vehicles, 2 landraiders - as transport - =2 destoyed vehicles, so you focus all your firepower to take down 1 squad of termies, then lose all that is ment for DE to be in the next turn...ow...he still has termies, for you only shot down 1 squad? Pardon me.

Lets count then shall we: you have 8 venoms, take down 1 termi squad and lets say a nother 1-2 models from a nother. You lose 5 venoms. Next turn, you take down the rest of the squad already taken down a notch, then lose all your venoms and start to lose the rest of your army to those hurricane bolters, get assaulted, boltered down.
Lets converge to a nother possibility: wolfriders. 3+3++, tündérhammer - tündér means fairy/pixie in hungarian - 2 wounds, cavalry.
For 1k, you can bring a wolfrider HQ that hits tons in melee, 2*5 wolfriders, one 3 man bike squad and 2 minimal troops of marines. Going to 1500, 3 longfangs in transport and increasing the number of the troops, giving the transports.

For1.5k you can have a ton of venoms, but are going to lose them for the increased range of rockets, the shots from the transports, and the wolfriders pushing them to one side. You have to sacrifice one round of shooting to stay far from the wolfriders, get CS, but the fangs will have time to shoot. Next round, you shoot either the LF's, or the WR's. If you shoot the LF's, they will have cover, but since their armor is better, he wont lose thet much and the wolfs will get closer, transports staying behind to give you no free space to run to.
If you shoot the WR's, you wont do much for the 2 wounds on the models is a mean amount to take down. And the LF's are letffree to kill. Next turn, you dont have many a space to flee to, for you will be between the riders and the transports full of troops, crossfired by the fangs, or in front of the riders, will be assaulted and only two fangs will reach you.

Get my drift? Its bad to focuse termies, and we dont have that type of DStar. our army composition is what makes the DEldar Dstar, not a single unite. And a venom spam list wint take care of multiple Dstar armies, like marines, esp Space Wolfs.

OK, not having played DE I may be a beginner, but what about shooting down all the rest, with priority to the termie transport?

Enfernux wrote:

And a venom spam list wint take care of multiple Dstar armies, like marines, esp Space Wolfs.

Sorry - but thats far from the truth... my venom list packs 7 venoms (enough for the 5 termies from earlier, 23 lance shots (sorry, what tanks did you want to shoot with next turn?) as well as incubi and vect all at 1850... dropping vect only gets me more lance shots... Dstar armies are easy picking for a good DE player - play keep away and destroy the rest.

If you sick all those points into a logan and 7 termies in a LRC DStar unit, thats 700+ points in 1 unit... that my list will destroy very easily with guns and combat abilty left over for your LF packs...

To keep it on topic i won't expand this though much more...

Forgive me if I would say something stupid (not having had the DE on either my or the enemy side of the table...), but what about the shunned Disintegrator cannon against terminators? Suppose you make a pure fire support ravager with 3 disintegrators, that would equal 9 AP2 shots, no? Isn't that an effective side weapon to deal with heavy infantry, for a decent 115 points with flickerfield? What if you had 2, wouldn't that still be cheaper than the terminator squad in question?

Yes, but the problem with that is that it's so situational as to be impractical. It's going to be 1 out of 10 or 12 games, and with a termie, they still get a 3++ save when they have SS, so they still have the advantage in that respect...