Old vs. New - Battle of the Bikes

Greetings and welcome to Battle 6 of Old vs. New.

It is now time to discuss everyone's favorite topic - bikes. I don't know even exactly how to describe this love and I have it, but there is basically not one player of 40k who doesn't love the idea of an army on bikes of some sort riding into battle. It appeals to something in us...probably just because it would look so damn manly or something. And, like most armies in 40k, the Dark Eldar have bikes...and the bikes are a little substandard compared to other options. *Le sigh*

One day GW will puzzle that out.

In any case, let's consider our bikes and figure out which reigns supreme, shall we?

Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

As with most bikes, ours are found in the Fast Attack slot (and neither are able to be made Troops...damn you GW!)

The Old bikes cost 25 points each, +16 to amp up to a Succubus (aka Arena Champion)
The New Bikes cost 22 each, and only +10 for the Arena Champion upgrade.

Savings! (Codex Creep?)

Advantage? - New!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

The Old Bikes

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
4	4	4	4	1	6	1	8	4+

The New Bikes

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
4	4	3	4	1	6	1	8	5+

And for the sake of completion - the Sarge characters;

The Old Bike Succubus

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
4	4	4	4	1	6	2	8	4+

The New Arena Champion

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
4	4	3	4	1	6	2	9	5+

Looking these over we see some immediate points of separation.

The New Bikes get +1 Leadership with a sarge, while the old bikes don't (one of the reasons the Bike Succubus was not taken in anything but assault bike squads, actually...) This was not as big a deal as you might think as basically any DE HQ could take a bike and accompany the RJBs into battle (Haemon w. Liquifier on a bike? Yes please!)

Conversely, the old bikes have +1 Toughness - which is a very potent stat as well. The old bikes also had +1 Armor Save. So, at a glance we can see that the Old bikes were definitely harder to kill, but the new bikes area bit harder to make run away when you do kill them.

Since the leadership shift of 8 to 9 is pretty minor compared to a 4+ versus a 5+ save and a 4 toughness versus 3 toughness, I'm going to say, for me, the stat line on the old bikes looks unquestionably superior.

Advantage? - Old!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with?

New

Ah, the Reaver squad, I'm sure everyone has at least played with them in an army before. They come with pistols, CCW, and rifles (on the bike) and get combat drugs. They also have the Bladevanes that allow them to inflict wounds via turbo boosting over enemy infantry.

For upgrades they have two 'paths' if you will. One for shooting upgrades (the Blaster and Heat Lance) and one for Bladevanes (the Cluster Caltrops and Grav-talon) though the Bladevane upgrades tend to be a little pricey for what they accomplish.

The Arena Champion is there for leadership and extra h2h punch, and can take a V.Blade, a power weapon, or an Aggie.


Old

The old RJB squad came with drugs, pistol, and rifle (no CCW, so the new guys do have that as a nice advantage) and also lacked the whole Bladevane gimmick.

They had just shooting upgrades (though they were anti-mech or anti-infantry shooting upgrades) and could take up to two Blasters or Shredders. Now, that is an important bit of consideration - the new bikes have the 'for every three bikes' rule, the old ones had 'take up to two'. That means if you wanted a tank hunting unit you could opt to drop down 3 Bikes with 2 Blasters for almost nothing (95 points) for similar points worth of new bikes you're not scaring too many tanks the same way.

As far as assault goes, the old bikes lose an attack, but the succubus is in the good ol' armory - and is therefore a paragon of punishment for anyone who comes near. With Str. 4 base a power weapon was usually a better investment (and cheaper) than an agoniser, and the ol' t.helm and punisher combo could give you an affordable sarge who was Str 5 with a power weapon - deal with that beakies!

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This is an interesting one to consider. The new bikes have a whole new mechanic (Bladevanes) while the old bikes are clearly able to take a wider variety of upgrades (armory) as well as shockingly cheap and spammable ones. Stepping back, I'll admit I personally find Bladevaning to be a...okay RJB option, but I consider it conditional. I think I'll stand behind the unit able to spam MSU better and also able to take more exciting assault wargear.

Advantage? - Old!


Face to Face in Battle!

Oh wow, this battle has drugs in it, doesn't it? Ugh! Also, this battle is going to pit what is really a harassment and tank hunting unit versus another of the same in assault...ugh! Well, let's point out a couple obvious comparisons first;


Tank-Hunting

Old can field 3 bikes and 2 Blasters for 95 points.
New can field 3 Bikes and 1 Blaster/Heat Lance for around 80 points.

Clear MSU tank hunting win for the Old.

Infantry Harassment

Old can field 3 Bikes with 2 Shredders for 105 points
New can field 3 Bikes with a Cluster Caltrop for 86

2 small blast Str 6 AP- shots (and rifle)
2d6 Str 6 AP- hits (and d3 Str 4 AP- hits)

I'd say that's a win for the new.

So, at their core goals the new bikes are better at poking at infantry and the old bikes are better at popping mech - you can decide for yourself which is more important to you as a player (I take tank hunting, because I assault or splinter dakka infantry to death)

But now, for yuks, let's take two maxed out assault units of RJBs and smack them together to see what happens.

New Reavers - 10 bikes, 2x Blasters, one Arena Champion w. Agoniser - 280
Old Reaver Jetbikes - 9 bikes, 2x Blasters, one Succubus w. T.Helm/Punisher combo - 286

New Reavers Assault

Everyone has the same initiative unless Old have the 'go first' drug.

New Reavers 27 attacks (36 w. +1 attack drug) - 13.5 hit (18 with +1 A or +1 WS...unless Old have +1 WS in which case...BLARGH! So many combos!) - 4.5 wound (6 wounds with +1 A or WS. 6.75 wounds with +1 Str, 7.5 with re-roll wounds)

After saves - 2.25 to 3.75 dead Old Bikers.

Arena Champ has 4 attacks (5), 2 hit (2.5 and 2.6 with +1A or +1 WS) and thus 1 to 1.5 wounds (1.5 via the re-roll to wound)

Arena Champ kills 1 - 1.5 Old Bikes.

Old bikes swing as well - 8 attacks (16 with +1 A) - 4 hit (8 with +1 Attack, 5.33 with +1 WS) - 2.6 wound (5.33, 3.55, 3.33 with various drugs)

After saves 1.73 to 3.55 dead New Bikes

Succubus will have 3 attacks (4) - 1.5 hit (2) - 1.25 to 1.66 dead.

Succubus kills 1.25 - 1.66

TOTALS
3.25 - 5.25 dead old bikes
2.98 - 5.21 dead new bikes.

I also realize i forgot the old drug of re-rolling misses...derp, I refuse to go back, I suspect it would fall between the outliers anyway (though not with the Succubus who'll probably do slightly better with it...whatevs, probably not enough to change the situation). Also, if the Old Bikes have the 'hit first' thing then they kill about 3-5 New Bikes and will probably end up winning the fight at that stage since the New bike damage output would drop by about 1-2 kills - swinging first is always pretty huge.

So, on the assault, as long as Old bikes don't get the 'strike first' drug, new bikes probably win though there are a couple of matchups that could get pretty grindy.
Old Bikes win if they have the strike first drug - so a 1/6 chance to definitely win and there are some grinds they might win.

Old Bikes get the charge

Old bikes swing 16 attacks (24) 8 hit (10.66 with +1 WS, 12 with re-roll misses, 12 with +1 A) 5.33 wound (7.10, 8, or 6.66 with +1 Str)

After saves - 3.55 - 5.33 dead New bikes

Succubus will have 4 attacks (5) - 2 hit (2.5 with +1 A, 3 with re-roll misses) - 1.66 to 2.5 dead

Succubus kills 1.66 to 2.5

New bikes swing 18 (27 with +1 attacks) - 9 hit (12 with +1 WS, 13.5 with +1 A) - 3 wound (4, 4.5, 5 with re-rolling wounds) - after saves 1.5, 2, 2.25, 2.5.

New Bikes kill 1.5 - 2.5 Old Bikes after saves

Arena Champ has 3 attacks (4), 1.5 hit (2 with +1A or +1 WS) and thus .75 to 1 wounds (1.125 via the re-roll to wound)

Arena Champ kills .75 - 1.25 Old Bikes.

TOTALS
5.21 - 7.83 dead New Bikes
2.25 - 3.75 dead Old Bikes

There is no grind here - if the Old bikes get strike first they'll own, and even in the closest matchups they're wiping out a significantly larger portion of the New Bikes than they are losing in kind.

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Looks like my original idea at the start of OVN holds true, those Old units are just nastier in h2h combat. With the charge, they own, and without the charge they still have a chance to win or at least horribly maul the enemy in going down by making it a grind fest. New bikes just can't compete versus the power of the old armory. This doesn't even account for the ability to add HQs to them - they were a functional (if expensive) assault force option.

In hunting mech it's still the old bikes win too. Yeah, the heat lance is nice, but the affordability of the old 2 Blaster hunting pack cannot be denied, and you could always add more bikes to make the unit "tougher" if you wanted to protect those blasters...or, heck, even add an HQ or something.

In harassing infantry without assaulting them, the old bikes still aren't bad (two small blast templates is still pretty boss) but I can't deny that the Bladevane shenanigans are pretty nice,a nd also leave your bikes better protected via not being up close to the enemy, but rather sitting around with a 3+ cover save in relative safety.

With two wins out of three, I can't deny the results.

Advantage? - Old!

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So that's my breakdown.

The Reaver Jetbike went through some major changes in the codex shift, and there can be some real debate about what was gained and lost. It's pretty clear they lost assault power, and also (though not a direct fault of the unit) lost HQ support which is pretty huge as it limits what a unit can do, as an added HQ makes huge changes to a units power level.

They remained excellent harassing units, though probably became weaker at hunting tanks and better at hunting infantry (a shift I'll admit I'm not sure I agree with, I know which I'd rather have them able to do thanks to the advent of the Venom and better splinter weaponry...) though adding in a melta weapon option definitely prevents them from being total jokes in the field.

Statwise they suffered, though they did become a bit cheaper as an apology of sorts. But the old 4+ save and 4 toughness RJBs were surprisingly durable and made excellent units to distract and annoy the enemy with as they were assault threats, and could hurt tanks, all while being somewhat hard to kill and costing next to nothing.

To my mind that's what makes them better, as that's what I feel bikes should be able to do...until we get a viable all bike army

Winner in my mind - Old Reaver Jetbikes.

That's my call - what's yours?

In the face to face, you should take into consideration that the new bikes would bladevane the crap out of the old bikes before they even assaulted... when you take that into consideration, i think that if the new bikes got to go first they would pretty much even out with the old bikes having the go first combat drug...

Also, while I won't argue the benefits of "take 2 per squad", it completely precludes you from ever wanting to take larger units... there's no point, whereas if i want to spend the unholy number of points for it, I can get 3 blasters, a grav talon, and 2 cluster caltrops in a squad, as well as the arena champ and 'nizer. While the old ones sergeants do have a larger armory, I think that over-all new is much more versatile.

What I don't understand is why archons and succubi cant take bikes/wings~jumpacks like their normal eldar brethren...

Sounds like someone to me is having trouble coping and has to blame how the "days of yore" were compared to what we have to work with now.

"In mah day, we had to walk to school, uphill! BOTH WAYS!..."

I kid, I kid. The Succubus HQ choices definitely should've had the choice to take a Jetbike/Skyboard in this new Codex if ANY HQ was going to be given the choice.

Ruke wrote:

In the face to face, you should take into consideration that the new bikes would bladevane the crap out of the old bikes before they even assaulted...

Maybe they would, though with an 19" - 24" assault threat range it's not actually as certain as that, and quite frankly they'd be better served by making sure they got the assault rather than trying to use the Bladevanes and giving up the assault to the Old bikes.

Ruke wrote:

Also, while I won't argue the benefits of "take 2 per squad", it completely precludes you from ever wanting to take larger units... there's no point, whereas if i want to spend the unholy number of points for it, I can get 3 blasters, a grav talon, and 2 cluster caltrops in a squad, as well as the arena champ and 'nizer. While the old ones sergeants do have a larger armory, I think that over-all new is much more versatile.

More versatile? I would argue that, the armory really gave more options to the old.

I'll happily agree the new could, at total maximum expenditure of points, get bigger and better shots...but if I was to give equivalent points to the old and hand them an attached HQ there would still be no contest in either shooting or assault. Bladevanes and their upgrades really aren't that impressive, and the Old Bikes have pinning tech available to them as well (better pinning tech, quite frankly). There is something to be said about the extra lance/blaster the new bikes could take, but the Old Bikes had better tools to assault mech with - and it's kind of an odd discussion anyway since no one fields 3 blaster/lance bike squads now that they have the option - so clearly it's not a functional desire when considering the points it costs or else more players would be doing it, so it's not really a bad thing that the old version couldn't do it, whereas there are things the Old could do that the new can't, and those are desirable things.

Ruke wrote:

What I don't understand is why archons and succubi cant take bikes/wings~jumpacks like their normal eldar brethren...

Or, even more to the point - like they used to be able to do
Yeah, a thousand agreements to this.

Smurfy wrote:

Sounds like someone to me is having trouble coping and has to blame how the "days of yore" were compared to what we have to work with now.

I have chosen new over old a couple of times already, I just didn't see it this time.

Quote :

I have chosen new over old a couple of times already, I just didn't see it this time.

I feel as though this one is really a tie...

Quote :

More versatile? I would argue that, the armory really gave more options to the old.

But only to a single model. If the old succubus was like the new one and couldn't take jetbikes, the old squad would be hindered leaps and bounds more than the new one, whereas if the new archon/succubus could take jetbikes it would be leaps and bounds better than the old squads.

When you look at bike on bike, or bike squad on bike squad, it comes out pretty even, I think.

How would this battle turn out if the old units got "go first"... but the new units got "starts with pain token"? (i'm bad at math, but I think it would come out at about 4 and 4)

Quote :

Sounds like someone to me is having trouble coping and has to blame how the "days of yore" were compared to what we have to work with now.

XD I actually didn't start playing until 5th edition, and not much when they moved the 'nids from 4th to 5th (I despised what they did to them... made them into mini chaos marines). I picked up DE when this codex came out, so I don't have any experience with the old codex...

I look forward to Tuesdays so that I can read this. That says a lot Thor

I think in your comparison you haven't really discussed how the weapons have changed with it, the blaster is a lot better now and of course the old Reavers never had the option for the heat lance. I don't think the worse save matters too much as they are either turbo boosting or in cover. Also I think you got the S and T mixed up when discussing the new bikes. And don't forget the drugs are so different too. My two cents.

Yes Thor, you wrote toughness instead of strength when comparing stats.

But OMG I was so mad when I couldnt bring my old list over. I was "that guy" that ran 2x 9 man Reavers w/ 2 Blasters, Succubi w/ Punsher/Thelm or Agoniser/ Combat Drugs. Ofc I had the abilgatory Archon on jetbike and Haemie on Jetbike (who didnt?) But man I miss those days... I also miss those days when I could push bikes into combat and really not have to worry about them (that S4 and 4+ Sv did alot for them). Thats not to say my bikes dont still see play, but its just not the same imho...

Ruke wrote:

How would this battle turn out if the old units got "go first"... but the new units got "starts with pain token"? (i'm bad at math, but I think it would come out at about 4 and 4)

Ask and ye shalt receive;

If the new bikes assaulted - old bikes would kill 2.11 new bikes after saves and FNP (FNP being no help versus Punisher as a power weapon).

New would respond with 3.5 kills.

Round 2 Old would then kill 1.75 or 2.25 depending on which way you want to round the 3.5 kills.
New would respond with 1.5 kills (assuming 2 kills from above)

At this point the numbers continue in this pace and Old gets the win with about 2 survivors and wipes New.
It is possible for New to win, but they need a couple of things to go their way over a couple of turns, and it will still be quite close.

If Old gets the assault the same thing will happen, only quicker and with less losses to the Old unit and barring really odd luck with no chance for New to do much of anything about it.

The big win for Old Bikes vs. FNP is that the Punisher is doing 1.73 wounds a turn even without a charge, so that's basically 2 dead Reavers a turn regardless of FNP or even without the other bikes doing anything but absorbing damage for the Succubus. On the assault they get a boost because, by himself, the Succubus will wipe out about 3 enemy Jetbikes before they can swing, and his men will claim about 2-3 in addition.

The old armory made the old sarge upgrades beasts of war capable of a lot - they brought versatility and power to their unit because you could always amp them up the ying yang.

@Shadow and Sky - derp on me! Bad habit of always thinking of Reaver Jetbikes as +1 Str. I'll probably get over it after about another 3-4 years with this codex, 10 year habits are tough to break

Even without considering Bike HQs I rate the old RJB unit higher. And yes, that's because of the 1-per-3 line.

Vote: OLD

I will say that, after, like, three total blowouts in a row, this poll looks like it will actually be a tight race - Old, New, and the 'tie/overall bike love' options are all going strong.

I think in this unit vs unit comparison, the old bikes win through (and no, I'm not seeing with rose tinted specs cos i've only just started collecting DE).

What I would say though is that I can reconcile the new bikes role much more clearly than the old, anti infantry with a minor tank hunting role whereas previously they seemed more of a jack of all trades depending on what you equipped them with? Given that we're talking eldar here not space marines I prefer the specialist role. With the exception of orks, I'm always a little sceptical about bikes in an assault, I think they should be about the mobile application of firepower (or in the RJB case, the mobile application of a sharpened bladevane, then firepower). That being said, I still think the succubus should be able to take a bike (though not a skyboard given the new fluff for hellions)

Old, old, old. I love the new models, but the old unit was better, sadly. The 4+ armor save difference is HUGE.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

What I would say though is that I can reconcile the new bikes role much more clearly than the old, anti infantry with a minor tank hunting role whereas previously they seemed more of a jack of all trades depending on what you equipped them with?

I actually don't think the New Jetbikes are any less 'jack of all trades' as they are capable of being tank hunters and assaulters It's just Old are better at both roles - making them better able to do them, which I suppose one could take as them being more applicable than New Bikes, but New Bikes are theoretically supposed to be able to be used as tank hunters and assaulters - that's obviously what that wargear is there for.

MurderingBastard wrote:

The 4+ armor save difference is HUGE.

Especially in the days prior to 5th Edition when cover saves weren't handed out like candy. I still have no idea why they shifted it to a 5+ save - was 4+ really that crazy and dangerous? Heck, leave them the same cost and just give us the better Str and Armor save, I'd call that legit.

Thor665 wrote:

I still have no idea why they shifted it to a 5+ save - was 4+ really that crazy and dangerous? Heck, leave them the same cost and just give us the better Str and Armor save, I'd call that legit.

Considering that Eldar Guardians roll with a 3+ save... I was a little shocked that this was dropped to a 5+. Gotta admit, I really like the new bladevane attacks and heat lances, but the reduced durability has made them appear FAR less in my armies since the rule change. I own 15 of them too! (trades gone bad)

I'll have to remember sometime to get an accurate count of how many Scourges I own, it is more than is healthy to admit (though in my defense, there was a period during 4th where they were actually decent as vehicle killers with S.Cannons)

The old ones are probably better for MSU spam as you you cna have 2 blasters in a 3 man squad, but I rather like the heat lance on the new ones as its our only ap1 weapon and Reavers are the only unit that can properly utilise it (outside of a WWP Talos).

Nomic wrote:

Reavers are the only unit that can properly utilise it (outside of a WWP Talos).

You don't think Scourges can, especially out of a WWP?

In other news, looks like this one will end up being a win for New by a narrow margin - I may end up doing a close on it (or at least the start of a new poll) on Sunday as opposed to Tuesday partly for my own schedule and partly because I'm suspicious most of the votes we're going to see are in already.

We're the old bikes considered Eldar Jetbikes (getting the free 6" move in the assault phase)?

Yes,

I suspect the drop in save is more to do with balance bs scourges than anything else.

I actually prefer new. The unit can get more special weapons overall, has a much longer area of effect and does not require an IC to baby sit them to stop them fleeing

Massaen wrote:

II actually prefer new. The unit can get more special weapons overall, has a much longer area of effect and does not require an IC to baby sit them to stop them fleeing

The babysitting IC part seems an unfair call - unless you go with an Arena Champion the Ld is the same, and not many people field Arena Champions unless the unit is assault oriented. I fielded the old ones all the time, and I never felt obligated to put an IC on a bike with them when running them as tank hunters.

I always found they needed the IC - might just be me!

I've always thought of my old Reavers as (semi-)sacrificial; only rarely using them as an assault unit. I have made several Jetbike IC models but really, they're more about coolness than battlefield efficiency.

Massaen wrote:

I always found they needed the IC - might just be me!

Do you always upgrade to the Arena Champ? Because barring the leadership boost then the Old ones would be tougher to kill or just as tough to kill - so the only difference would be the 9 LD versus the 8.