Wait, so why don't people use Lelith

I don't use SC's as a rule, not so much because I think they're a tactical crutch, but mainly because I like to come up with my own background. I also don't like the tactical inflexibility of not being able to change a weapon or equipment when I want to.

Seems poor Lileth is getting a pretty hard time................

First up, almost all named characters are expensive. Bar a few (like Vulcan), named characters do tend to be that little more expensive than a generic equiv...... but always bring something a little extra to the party you simply cannot get any other way, and Lelith is no exception...... (Compare to say Lysander...... he brings eternal warrior, and a really nice hammer, you can not get either of those in the Marine dex any other way, but you pay the equiv of a CC terminator squad for those unique buffs).

Second, no combat drugs is not a mistake, and will not be FAQ'd. Lelith is that good, she says no to drugs ;P......... but mostly for balance reasons, all those extra attacks she gets, at St4 (with the potential for FC as well!!!!), or rerolling wounds will make marine players cry, and GW don't like making marine players cry. It's just the way it is.

Third, a Sucubus with hyrda guantets is no where near Lelith. Not even close, even at half the points. No where near the attacks (consistently), no power weapon, worse dodge save, no base inv save. And worst of all, unless you get the right drugs roll..........being hit on 4s by marines........ I'll be coming back to this cos it is huge! not that succubus' are bad either, they can bring a lot for minimal points, but they aren't anywhere near Lelith levels.

Cons: Price is expensive. S3, T3, no drugs. Fragile in that can be 'easily' instant killed (Personally I disagree, but I conceed the point to a degree).

Pros: High WS and Ini. Bucket loads of attacks. Power weapon, good inv saves. Brings her own shardnet.

If you are fighting 'fair' fights (in 40K in general) you are doing yourself a disservice. If you are fighting fair fights with DE then you are making serious mistakes. So with that in mind, equal points versus equal points holds little meaning IMO. We have the speed, the mobility and superb transports (*) that you really should never be making those sorts of trades. So equal points vs TH/SS termies isn't all that viable an arguement (**), as those guys should be stranded immediately, while your whole army relocates to avoid them. Threat gone, and can be dealt with at your lesiure. In any other army, you'll use what ever is needed to kill them off (I've fired off my entire army at CC termies..... sometimes it is needed), so why would it be any different using DE?

I guess what I'm trying to say is you have a tool box, and you use the right tool for the right job. Lelith is GOOD at tackling infantry. So if you are trying to kill a warboss on a bike, CC termies or a MC, on her own, that is not her failure, it's yours.

But what she really likes............. is FC. I'm sorry but if you're having trouble getting to 2 pain tokens on a unit, then something is going wrong some where. Especially if you're paying out the price on Lelith. I admit I use a combined approach, and do not field a sole wyche cult army so you may be more restricted in what you choose to take, but if you want 2 pain tokens you can get it easily before the game even starts..... let alone finding an easy unit to tackle first before you go off to kill something bigger.

A haemie and a 3 man wrack squad is proably the cheapest (and opens up the option to bring another transport). I wouldn't advise doing it just for the pain tokens, but as a combined approach, getting FNP on Lelith and a basic wyche squad is very easy, and actaully makes them more durable than you might think, several opponents have heavy flamered my wyches, expected mass death and then been rather surprised when they don't all die and rinse a unit the next turn. 1 PT later and ur at FC.

'BUT all this takes some serious effort and point expenditure'........ Yes it does, good things usually do if you want them to work right.

I'm starting to waffle (or continuing to waffle) so lets round this up..... balancing the pros and cons.

If Lelith gets hit by an ID weapon and fails her inv save, yes she is toast, and expensive toast. But, most things she'll be targetting will be hitting her on a 5+. Even THSS termies........ oh and anyone who wants to hit her, they'll be down by 1 attack...... hitting on 5s. Put her in a wyche unit with a shardnet, and thats down by 2, most characters will have trouble taking her down and if they are wise, they'll target the unit instead and try to down her with combat resolution. But of course she is not un killable, yes she can die, but the odds of hitting her give her additional protection, not shown by simply her inv save. Coupled with her insane ini and she'll be hitting first against pretty much everything. She should have the charge, and with a unit, can likely avoid sargents with fists etc..... not always, but then if they do try to hit her........ on 5s...... 3++ save...... the odds are deffo in your favour.

I guess the million dollar question is have I actually used her to such amazing potential?

Erm.... no ;p I am still quite happy with my archon, or cheap haemies, but do take a djinn blade on my archon so 7-8 st3 attacks so similar principles at work, altho I do give mine a shadow field, blaster and combat drugs......... but she kills stuff pretty well. The combat drugs deffo do help I admit.

If I was going to run Lelith tho, it would be something like this.

Lelith.
Haemi, liquifier gun and venom blade.
7 Wyches, Hekatrix, agoniser (or power weapon), shardnet, in a raider with Night shield.

Mobile, with some anti tank, but that should be covered by other units until they make their charge. LG can thin units down too, and with a hekatrix, and Lelith, rinsing a unit in a turn or 2 shouldn't be a problem, granting them FC as well (hell if you're lucky, they might even start the game with it), ready to go eat something else.

I use this config quite a bit with my archon, so think it would work equally as well, but costing 35 points more than my archon build does..................

Personally, I do not tend to use named characters all that much as usually the things they bring, while fun, aren't as competitive as what else you could bring instead. BUT I wouldn't say that makes them useless, or pointless, or even over costed. With a bit of planning you can get her up to FC pretty easily, and run those marine numbers again at ST4 and she becomes a beast. That poor tac squad will still be hitting her on 5s, that won't change.

* A quick note on transports...... ours are some of the best in the game, being highly mobile and packing decent fire power. DE 'can' tackle anything via assualt, from T5+, MCs, you name it (with agonisers and posion attacks). But again I'd ask why you are choosing to tackle such touch targets rather than just splinter fire them out of existance. Our assualt is good, but our fire power is excellent. Goes back to the tool box analogy, and if you havent got a venom in your tool box yet, I would highly recommend one/some.

** CC termies have to deploy right to be effective, via:
1 Footslogging, in which case avoid them, while shooting them at range.
2 DS in which case, avoid them after they land, and shoot them.
3 Via a transport, which will cost stupid amounts of points. This is by far the most likely way you will face them, and these points are integral to that unit getting in to assualt, so while my suggested units seem expensive, if you really want to factor in CC termies, this can not be ignored. (oh, and disable the transport, then avoid them, while shooting). You can of course mix it up in CC too, but I'd deffo suggest getting FC before you do.

Mandor wrote:

Yup, with nets instead of hydra gauntlets, and on the charge (which is basically a given) is a much better setup. They remain a huge point sink and a big liability in the enemy shooting phase though.

Actually razorflails out preform guantlets everytime except when they get the re-roll drugs, and that is only against GEQ, as their MEQ numbers are almost identical.

@ Fatuous, excellent post. If I ever use Lelith again it'd probably be as you described.

That said, if it's straight chaff-mincing I want out of an HQ, I'll probably settle for Malys or Archon Joe with his Djin Blade, both of which come a lot cheaper.

[quote="Fatuous"]Seems poor Lileth is getting a pretty hard time................

I guess the million dollar question is have I actually used her to such amazing potential?

Erm.... no ;p I am still quite happy with my archon, or cheap haemies, but do take a djinn blade on my archon so 7-8 st3 attacks so similar principles at work, altho I do give mine a shadow field, blaster and combat drugs......... but she kills stuff pretty well. The combat drugs deffo do help I admit.

If I was going to run Lelith tho, it would be something like this.

Lelith.
Haemi, liquifier gun and venom blade.
7 Wyches, Hekatrix, agoniser (or power weapon), shardnet, in a raider with Night shield.

Mobile, with some anti tank, but that should be covered by other units until they make their charge. LG can thin units down too, and with a hekatrix, and Lelith, rinsing a unit in a turn or 2 shouldn't be a problem, granting them FC as well (hell if you're lucky, they might even start the game with it), ready to go eat something else.

quote]

That was a great post Fatuous but the above answers the whole question of why Lelith gets a hard time.
The unit you have listed runs to something like 420 points, it's relying on a paper plane to get where it needs to be and it's got a giant SHOOT ME sign painted on it.
There arw much better uses of those 420 points if you want to kill infantry and I think thats where Leliths real problem lies. There are simply easier, safer ways of killing infantry in the codex, I'm thinking venoms, trueborn and SC's here. Hell even 2 stock razorwings are probably more effective infantry killers, and still leave you points left over.

While there are more point effiecient ways, in the contaxt of the whole army she can be very effeicient. Your HS are used for AT duties and more and more so are the elite choices.

You have to have a HQ and troops so this fills an assault niche well and kills all manner of infantry with no less in effectiveness for the most part regardless of target

Thanks for the postive feedback guys, not posted on here much and for the dark kin...... you all seem pretty nice

Now to the meat of it........

Lelith is deffo expensive, I certainly wouldn't denigh it, and as always you certainly can find more cost effective ways to spend your points (but not with a 3++ dodge save, her very impressive stats level, shard net, power weapon, or anyway for marines to be hitting you on 5+ with out very lucky drug rolls on a succubus). If you want cost effective stuff, then that is an option, if you want what Lelith brings, nothing else can bring it.

My main point is really that arguements like:

She can't tackle T5+ or MCs.
She sucks at dealing with CC termies.
She's too easy to instant death.

needed addressing as they avoid the real issues. You wouldn't send your archon against those targets most likely either, most things struggle to handle CC termies, who also have their own cost limiting land raider factor, and in fact, while her inv save is no shadow field, the actual number of hits coming her way should be fewer when you factor in the shardnet and tbh, massive Ini and WS........

Oddly enough I was having a similar discussion on assualt units on another thread (http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2802-archon-tactics-and-equipment) unfortunatley, this also turned in to a bit of an essay but the basics were...... don't send 1 transport of assualt dudes in, they'll get shot down, they have to be supported.

Now, on to my 420 point unit containing Lelith. This might sound a bit sneaky, and I don't expect to sway any ones own thoughts on this..... BUT.

That unit, including Lelith cost me:

35 points.
1 blaster.
A drop in LD by 1.

Yes, in isolation, that unit is hidiously expensive, very fragile and all eggs in 1 basket-tastic.

But that is looking at that one unit, not at a list as a whole.

I have to have troops, so those wyches 'could' be considered as free, I'm not paying for them in Leliths cost, that is just using my actual army to support her and get her where she is going (just like I would with any HQ character). I have to take a HQ of some description, and my archon I'd be swopping out is 140 points (comes with a blaster and has better Ld than Lelith) hence the 35 points actual cost of Lelith. TBH, my wyche units have Haemies with them anyway, so again I do not really count them in the costing here, and if you see the other thread, with how my assualts are initiated, no one goes in alone, there are several units all barreling in, and the main one is put in position to get that T2 assualt if their transport dies or not.

For the record, I wouldn't put Lelith in that 1k sample list on the other thread, as the archon makes up part of my anti tank requirements..... but in 1.5k+ she'd slip in quite nicely to a list I already run and cos me 35 points.

I hold my hands up and say I'm twisting the meaning of the costs there (hey, as DE there are always wheels within wheels), but that squad is not 'on top' of any other things in my army......... that is a core unit with in my already functioning army. Lelith replaces my archon, but the rest was already there to start with.

Yes in isolation it looks very expensive, but that is my list's fault, and again very little to do with Lelith herself............ for ME, in how I run my game, she costs me 35 points, a blaster and a pip in LD.

I deffo admit to twisting some meanings there, and you may well disagree completely.

I'm just happy some one read my post to the bottom

EDIT:

1 final thought on why not use:

Venoms
Trueborn
Razor wings
etc......

instead of what you are taking, surely that is a cheaper option?

Yes I agree, there are different ways of dealing damage, and some are deffinitely better....... I do agree with you on those points, but a few to consider as well.......

1 You have to have troops anyway, they score, and they have better chances with FNP. You only get that from Haemies or......... killing stuff. As DE players, we do rely less on our troops to hold objectives, but they are still important for late game objective grabs.
2 All transports that kill stuff cost you pain tokens. Killing stuff is great, but I like to weaken units with my vehicles, and then wipe them out with infantry. So 'only killing 3 marines' is ok for me, as the units tend to not have many left in anyway.
3 Assualt over shooting is one of the most cost effective ways to actaully kill a unit...... you do not even need to wipe them out, or even kill 25% in a phase to wipe them out completely, and Lelith's ini means very few things will ever escape alive. You can atcually win and assualt and wipe out a unit by killing 1 guys in assualt. Marines....... yeah fine, we're on to no retreat wounds instead, but assualt phases can rinse an army with fewer failed armour saves than shooting can.
4 And poss the most important....... how do you use those vehicles to handle enemies that are killing your troops in CC, or 'hiding' in CC so you can not shoot them with venoms, trueborn or razorwings (works just as well for tri-dissie ravengers)? Well the answer is unfortunately you don't. You wait for them to kill your guys so you can then bring your guns to bare.

Even a half decent assualt unit ploughing in to the side of that assualt protects your troops, your kill points and gains you pain tokens meaning your troops are even tougher.......... Some one like Lelith, joining an assualt will almost certainly win that combat for you......

That is just how I play, and there are many, many more ways that work just as well and even better than what I use.......... just my thoughts on it.

Hey man I here you, we all play different ways, thats what makes it interesting, just throwing out some thoughts to stimulate discussion. I'm currently veering away from lance and blaster spam as I just find it so unreliable. Thats why I've dropped blasterborn and 3 lance ravagers in favor of alternative ways of wrecking vehicles.

I can't say anything about expensive units, I run the baron, 20 hellions, with a Heami and 3 wracks to support them with PT's. That little lot comes to 530 points and it's the focal point of my 1750 list. Same kind of thinking as your lelith unit but this one does it's own weakening before assaulting in.

i don't agree with the thinking that taking The Baron in any way compensates for my lack of skill, I'd say running this particular unit requires a fair bit of skill.

Quote :

how do you use those vehicles to handle enemies that are killing your troops in CC, or 'hiding' in CC so you can not shoot them with venoms, trueborn or razorwings (works just as well for tri-dissie ravengers)?

Well , if you go MSU way our units are either more effective and chose assault either they are dead or running first round of combat, so there is no hiding. Also when using Helions you obviously deny enemy of hiding too.

For those that really want to get Lelith work consider this also - she performs very well on her own.
As was mentioned in good posts above combat resolution works her way - she is very hard to damage with atacks, furthermore if she fight alone pile-in rules obligates enemy to move most of their model on btb range with her, means 6 models will suffer from her shardnet.

I thought it was a single model in base contact that lost an attack not every single one of them.

@Fatuous

A well thought out post, with good incite on the meat and potatoes of the original post. I plan on at least trying Lelith to play test this all. I need to see the new Lelith in action in an assortment of opponents in order to get a great idea of how she is doing.

I'm personally going to field her with bloodbrides in order to make the most of her potential.

Fielding Lelith with bloodbrides, expect to get shot at. A lot!

Quote :

I thought it was a single model in base contact that lost an attack not every single one of them.

Each model in BtB.

Quote :

Fielding Lelith with bloodbrides, expect to get shot at. A lot!

I think she must be fielded with 3 wracks in venom. If she ever wishes to go with other Wyches that must be other squad in another transport.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Fielding Lelith with bloodbrides, expect to get shot at. A lot!

Will do! I am expect my tactic of trying to shield valuable raider works in the case…

I would love to use Lelth one day; but Drazhr and Vect must come first(I already use the crap out of duke), I don't know why people dislike her, but I sure love her =)

Has anyone had any luck with Lelith in a battle report? There's a lot of theatrical/ mathematical theories here but as to table synergy there seems be lacking experience.

My best result is a one on one with a 6 wound tervigon... killed it over 2 rounds of combat!

MasterofPuppets wrote:

Has anyone had any luck with Lelith in a battle report? There's a lot of theatrical/ mathematical theories here but as to table synergy there seems be lacking experience.

I've run her for 6 games and while fun she just lacks bite in a MEQ heavy environment. Its the str 3 that really drags her down, although getting furious charge early definitely helps. I've run her with two Haemonculi and she will rip through a couple of squads, but its expensive.

Azdrubael wrote:

Quote :

I thought it was a single model in base contact that lost an attack not every single one of them.

Each model in BtB.

Quote :

Fielding Lelith with bloodbrides, expect to get shot at. A lot!

I think she must be fielded with 3 wracks in venom. If she ever wishes to go with other Wyches that must be other squad in another transport.

Love this idea!!!!! If you want to try her out, yet still keep her cheap(ish).... I really can not see a better option than this. Cheap, pain token and bringing a venom. Great plan!!!!

Deffo agree, alone she should still do really well, just try to avoid st6+ power weapons, etc... she'll still be hard to kill, but ups the odds if she is alone.

Also, reg blood brides.... I've been considering blood brides as an archon retinue for a while, just 6 to gain 2 shardnets... but with Lelith, that could well be 3 shardnets...... maybe a bit over kill unless ur hunting serious characters but coudl work.

I did notice yesterday, when trying to decide over wyches or blood brides, that they aren't quite as expensive as I thought....... I pretty much always stump out the points for haywires on my wyches. So taking BBs instead, not taking the haywires makes them 1 point more....... plus the extra upgrades I guess...... does leave them a bit open to armour and I have found the hay wires excellent on the wyches, but with more attacks, prob better to be using em and avoid haywires on the BBs anyway.

Yeah they will be targeted, but that arguement really does apply to every really good unit you might take.... or any unit you might take........ so yes it;s valid, but it applies to pretty much everything...

I think BBs would be good, but suspect the output compared to a basic wych squad won't change all that much.

I think that, if any of the 6th Edition rumors that have circulated, come to pass, Lelith might be more valuable in the next edition. She may still be overpriced, but she may be better. Her WS 9 should let her hit most targets on a 2+ and be hit back only on a 5+ or 6+, making her quite durable (after Shardnet, 3+ Dodge, and possibly FNP) and dealing more damage. Additionally, as a character, she will be able to direct attacks (i.e., killing sergeants, special weapons, etc.) at Initiative 9. Lastly, Instant Death was rumored to require T+4, so S6 wouldn't kill her outright anymore (and now you could FNP it as well). She probably still won't be worth 175 pts, but the gap would shrink.

I just bought a finecast succubus, box of wyches and a venom. I'm pretty exctied to field her as Lelith in order to get a feel for her. I'm not going to get excited about 6th edition unless it's in print.

I only thing I don't like about Lelith is her point range and her rules.

If she had a built-in Razorflail as rules and a 2+ save, I would take her for 175. At where she is right now, you can get a lot more damage form a 2x 85pt Succubus w/ Agonizer.

I used to use her a lot and she was devastating. That in mind it was mainly against Imperial Blob Guard, tau, tyrannids etc (basically all toughness 3 opponants) In those situations she happily munches through squads at a time and I think justifies her point cost (especially if combined with a haemocules to get the pain token).

Against MEQ I still think she is alright, possibly one of the best cc units you can get in 40K but to charge her to that level you need a Chronos and Hamocules near her. This makes her even more expensive and the other possibilities are better. If only she had combat drugs....

Even without the army-wide buffs (or "crutches", depending on your point of view ), a lot of other HQ options are simply either more efficient for their points or provide more utility. As an example, here's a comparison with Vect who is our most expensive HQ:

Vect - even without the ability to seize on a 4+ (which is useless if you deploy first) - can re-roll to hit against everything, always wounds on a 3+ (which makes it good against MEQ and actually provides some use against GEQ too) and ignores armour saves, has a shadowfield, haywire grenades (so you can throw him at walkers with Wych bodyguards and take them out, something Lelith can't do), and has an AP3 blast weapon which heals himself. Oh, and if facing Eldar or Dark Eldar models he re-rolls to wound too.

Some mathhammer. Figures are on the charge without Furious Charge, as getting Lelith to start with that requires an points sink which makes her just as expensive as Vect, if not more so.

vs MEQ (WS4, T4)

Vect: 7 attacks, 6 hit (re-rolls), 4 wound. 60 points per wound caused.
Lelith: 11 attacks, 7 hit, 2.4 wound. 73 points per wound caused.

vs GEW (WS3, T3)

Vect: 7 attacks, 6 hit (re-rolls), 4 wound. 60 points per wound caused.
Lelith: 12 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound. 44 points per wound caused.

So against, GEQ Lelith works out as more points efficient, but against MEQ Vect is the winner. Considering how a) marine armies are the most popular and b) footguard is quite rare, and Venoms rip them to shreds, if I wanted a CC monster I would take Vect over Lelith anyday. He has better synergy with Wyches (the irony!), kills more marines and provides a nice crutch to help with getting first turn.

And out of interest, here's a comparison against a regular Succubus with Agoniser (85 points).

vs MEQ

Succubus (normal): 6 attacks, 4 hit, 2 wound. 42.5 points per wound caused
Succubus (+1A drug): 7 attacks, 4.6 hit, 2.3 wound. 36 points per wound caused
Succubus (reroll drug): 7 attacks, 6 hit (rerolls), 4.5 wound (rerolls). 19 points per wound caused (!!!)
Lelith: 11 attacks, 7 hit, 2.4 wound. 73 points per wound caused.

Against MEQ, The agoniser succubus inflicts roughly the same number of wounds with a drug that won't benefit her or the +1A, and inflicts 2 more wounds with the reroll drug. And costs half the price of Lelith.

vs GEQ

Succubus (normal): 6 attacks, 4 hit, 2 wound. 42.5 points per wound caused
Succubus (+1A drug): 7 attacks, 4.6 hit, 2.3 wound. 36 points per wound caused
Succubus (reroll drug): 7 attacks, 6 hit (rerolls), 4.5 wound (rerolls). 19 points per wound caused (!!!)
Lelith: 12 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound. 44 points per wound caused.

Against GEQ, Lelith puts more wounds out there unless the Succubus gets the re-roll drug, but they still have the same points per wound efficiency. Seeing as Lelith does nothing but kill stuff, I can only compare her on that. Yes, she's a bit harder to kill than a regular Succubus, but does +1 invul and -1 incoming attack really justify paying twice the price of the regular Succubus?

The arguement isn't about other HQs providing useful buffs. The argument is that Lelith is just bad when compared to other options available, even when when those HQs fill the same role (i.e. killing stuff).

Since I personally like Lelith, I use her when I can or see shed benefit at least in some way. Her finer moment a while back was when she was charged by a Scout sentinel and my friend though she couldn't kill it whatso ever, I remembered she has plasma grenades and I was able to actually glance the thing in three turns ^_^' and her bs 9 when throwing grenades is also great! But against marines....shes sadly just a tarpit im afraid...