Holy crap! Grey Knights!

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he never did quake.

though if he did, i would have used the aethersails to mitigate scatter. because if i'm out of position or exposed, I can try and get to cover at least.

I think you cant use aethersails when you arrive via DS. In order to use them you should go normal reserves, and you dont know if your opponent is using quake or not when you chose between DS or normal reserves at the start of the game.

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first off: i hardly expected this thread to turn into what it is now....

I'm sorry, my own thread was locked, so i start posting here

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http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/04/40k-meta-what-weve-become.html

Some basics:
Grey Knights at 22% equaled the total of the bottom 9 codices!
Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and IG equaled 50% of the field.
Not one Tyranid player was on the floor - not one.

Its obvius that if you want to run DE competitively you NEED to handle GK, and handle them quite well. That's why i want to discuss tactics against them.

Sirio_Julio wrote:

I think you cant use aethersails when you arrive via DS. In order to use them you should go normal reserves, and you dont know if your opponent is using quake or not when you chose between DS or normal reserves at the start of the game.

well all my ravagers were in reserve, and he never used any unts that had warpquake. plus, deepstriking still counts as moving, so I don't see why you can't roll for the sails after rolling for scatter and placing the model.

Captain Mayhem wrote:

second: Ever since I tried out the razorwing flocks, i've loved how they work. so many little models to throw at them and it doesn't matter if you lose a few on the way. the ridiculous amount of attacks (300 on the charge if conditions are ideal) that you can pop off should make even paladins/purifiers worry. If I end up facing GK again and I see those, I'm going to make sure my birds and 'masters get to them, to see how many I can take down before they can hit back.

I wonder if the birds can benefit from FNP if I give them a paintoken...

While they can have a pain token all the want, they can not get FNP from it, as they do not have the PfP special rule.

Secondly I fail to see what Razorwings will do to a dreadnaught. First off you are fighting front armor, so you need a 6 to rend, and then another 5 or 6 to glance. Very hard to get a result, and almost impossible to kill a dread like that. Secondly they are S6, so those flocks are going to be ID, which gets rid of their one strength, high number of wounds. And if you say "well thats what the kymerae are for) well they are just going to tag along and take wounds for you, because at S4 they cant do anything to AV12 other than scratch at it.

Beasts are good, but not a good choice to charge into a dreadnaught.

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Sirio_Julio wrote:
I think you cant use aethersails when you arrive via DS. In order to use them you should go normal reserves, and you dont know if your opponent is using quake or not when you chose between DS or normal reserves at the start of the game.


well all my ravagers were in reserve, and he never used any unts that had warpquake. plus, deepstriking still counts as moving, so I don't see why you can't roll for the sails after rolling for scatter and placing the model.

The problem is DS is only "considered as moving at cruising speed" not actually moving at cruising speed. Also aethersails need you to be going flat out, which you are not doing when DS. So I am sorry, but no extra movement for you

Shadows Revenge wrote:

While they can have a pain token all the want, they can not get FNP from it, as they do not have the PfP special rule.

aw that's too bad. it would be beastly if they did.

Secondly I fail to see what Razorwings will do to a dreadnaught.[/quote]

hurk... /heart attack..

now why would I use birds against a dreadnought? come on, that's just dumb. I threw them against his assasin (yeah he died real fast) and threw them against his bog standard grey knights. yeah they died horribly too.

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Sirio_Julio wrote:
I think you cant use aethersails when you arrive via DS. In order to use them you should go normal reserves, and you dont know if your opponent is using quake or not when you chose between DS or normal reserves at the start of the game.


The problem is DS is only "considered as moving at cruising speed" not actually moving at cruising speed. Also aethersails need you to be going flat out, which you are not doing when DS. So I am sorry, but no extra movement for you

says nothing about having to go flat out. you can use them any time, even if you move one inch. I doublechecked the wording.

Yep, you can use them after deep striking to gain some movement. You won't be able to shoot anything obviously, but if it's to get into cover after a dodgy landing then they can be useful.

Sami, I'd be hesitant to spread that information without any sort of qualifier. The topic has come up on these forums before, and it was anything but conclusive.

It's fine to state your interpretation of the rules. People do that all the time. It's just that when these interpretations are likely to result in a rules debate later, people usually warn anyone taking their advice that it could be disputed.

Actually, I take back the certainty. Having just re-checked the DS rules, I had thought the "may move no further" rule applied to infantry only and not any model arriving via DS.

I would instead revert back to codex > brb, or specific > generic. The extremely permissive rules of Enhanced Aethersails plus it being a rule that runs counter to one in the BRB would lead me to believe that EA can be used after arriving via deep strike.

The interesting part is whether you can use EA to move while immobilized

Huh. I'm genuinely and pleasantly surprised to see someone change their mind after taking such a hard stance. It's rare for me to see that on the 'net these days.

I think I agree with you -- we're at the codex<>brb and specific<>general issue. I'm inclined to think the intent was strictly for full-out movement, but we all know how much that's worth.

It just says "an additional 2d6"", units cant disembark or shoot... so they have to be able to move to move an "additional 2d6"", and deepstriking says the unit can not move except to disembark from a deepstriking transport vehicle...

is there a faq that disputes this?

Not as far as I can tell. Sami's the first person I've ever seen bring this up. "Additional 2d6" does seem to imply that you have to at least be able to move, though. Being immobile by deep striking or an immobilized result would likely disallow it.

corollax wrote:

Huh. I'm genuinely and pleasantly surprised to see someone change their mind after taking such a hard stance. It's rare for me to see that on the 'net these days.

What can I say - I'm a rules lawyer, not a priest.


As for being immobile after DS, the rules say the vehicle counts as having moved at cruising speed, and cruising speed is defined as moving between 6" and 12". So it depends if "counts as" moving would also trigger any effects which occur from movement.

For the immobilized damage result one, 0 + 2D6" = 2D6"

"counts as moving" and "moved" aren't really the same thing at all... you need to be able to move the vehicle AT LEAST 1" on the board, to be able to move "an additional 2d6"

"counts as moving at cruising speed" refers to whether the vehicle can fire weapons, as specifically mentioned in the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

Q: When a vehicle Deep Strikes, it counts as having
moved at cruising speed for the purposes of
determining what weapons it can fire. How does this
work with walkers as they can only move at combat
speed? (p95)
A: A walker can still fire all of its weapons as if it was a
stationery vehicle.

BRB PG 95 wrote:

In that turns shooting phase, these units can shoot (or run) as normal and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed.