Old vs. New - Battle of the Space Pimp

Greetings and welcome to Battle 13 of Old vs. New.

Asdrubael Vect since the early days of the codex (even before we were allowed vehicle upgrades) there has always been one dude, the original space pimp (check yo'self Calgar) who rode into battle atop his mystical pimp ship and pimp slapped all the other races while snickering 'just as planned' under his breath.

Asdrubael went through some...drastic changes in the new codex, and that really makes me wonder. Who is the better Space pimp? Is it the hyper Raider with fully kitted bodyguard? Or is it the odd skimmer/fast/walker/wtf-are-the-rules-for-this-thing? mo'fo original?

Let's find out!


Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

Both Old and New are HQ options, as well Vect should be.
Now, Old came in at 277 points.
Not to be outdone, New costs 240...on foot, he comes out to 440 with his ride, and that's not even counting the obligatory crew who has to join him.

The 440 versus 277 is really a no brainer. I guess we could talk about just the 240 versus 277...but if we did that, I *really* wouldn't like Vect's chances when they started fighting.

Advantage? - Old!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

Now, this will be an odd one to look at because...well, Old Vect was...not a NORMAL sort of model. You see, he was a fast open topped skimmer that could assault like a Walker and was treated like a Walker in h2h combat. (yeah, I know, awesome and wtf in equal amounts, right there)

OG Vect

WS	BS	S	Front	Side	Rear	I	A	Sv
6	6	4	14/11	14/11	14/10	7	5	-

New Vect

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
8	8	3	3	4	8	5	10	4+

Okay, so let me clarify that in shooting the Old Vect was AV 14, but in assault it was AV 11.

So how do we compare these two things?

Well, obviously new has the advantage of better WS and Init (though not much matters between a 7 and an 8 in init).
Old has the advantage of no fear of insta-death and also being a vehicle so no morale or leadership shenanigans ever (and, indeed, would be immune to a lot of that stuff straight up...like, y'know, force weapons insta-killing the eternal lord of the Dark City like a chump.)

They both have equal attacks, and the Str advantage on Old really doesn't matter due to Vect's wargear (though I suppose theoretically it is an advantage in certain odd situations). Um...yeah, the BS of 6 on Old, though less than new, mattered more because it was a BS 6 *Ravager* (who wouldn't kill for that?)

Yeah, I don't even really know how to compare them other than that.

Advantage? - Tie!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with?

New

New Vect almost comes with so much wargear and tools that it's easy to forget some of them. Let's try to sort this all out.

Dais - for 200 points he gets the Dais, and that's an okay little upgrade as it's an AV 13 (because 14 was OP, natch) Raider...though overall less customized than any other Raider out there. Meh. Still, a 3 lance Raider is nothing to sneeze at.

Orbs - he has janky little blast templates that wound on leadership in a way assured to annoy your opponent as you muddle out what the rolls need to be

Scepter - he has a power weapon that wounds on 3+

Shadowfield - 2++ saves? Yes, please!

Also, Haywire grenades, a splinter pistol, Ghostplate armor (because he'll still be alive after the first failed Shadowfield roll...) has preferred enemy on everything and can seize initiative on a 4+ (also has all the usual DE powers of Fleet, Power from Pain, Nightfighting, ect. ect. ect.)

Not too damn shabby.


Old

Old keeps it simple because its basic rules are complicated enough.

AV14 all around from shooting.
A Dark Lance and 2 Dissies (the good plasma cannon Dissies) all at BS 6 so your opponent will weep.
And all its attacks are power weapons and it will be AV 11 in h2h combat making it pretty much assured death for any unit not packing a power fist or grenades and some luck.

Also, all the advantages (moving flat out) and disadvantages (1 lascannon hit can equal death!) of a fast, skimmer, vehicle.


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This is not an easy one because, again, this is kind of an apples and oranges sort of deal. Still, at the core, I think New Vect brings more to the table.



Advantage? - New!


Face to Face in Battle!

This is not an easy matchup to do. Shooting at each other from their Dais the Old Vect is harder to hurt, the new Vect is better able to cause hurt. Both are stuck to moving 6" and shooting since New Vect lacks Aerial Assault and Old Vect will want to use full power Dissies (Str 7 versus AV 13? yes, yes we shall).

I'd probably say the advantage there goes to New Vect as his ride is the one equipped to kill vehicles and the Dark Lance treats AV 14 and 13 the same.

In assault it's kind of the other way around - New Vect is *not* built to handle a Walker, even an AV 11 Walker, in combat. He would sit there wuss slapping with his Haywire grenade and hoping, while Old Vect swung away with 5 power weapon attacks a turn, hoping to pop the Shadowfield and skrag the young punk.

I'd say Old will win that one more often than not.


Advantage? - Tie!

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So that's my breakdown.

What do we have from this though? Face to face this was NOT an easy comparison. New Vect is probably an overall better army multiplier...but has a distinct disadvantage of sucking up 500+ points to field in all his glory. Old was actually a rather incredible (if expensive still) Ravager that also had assault capability in a pinch.

Now, Old Vect saw play a lot in higher point games, and was usually dropped in as an extra Ravager and played as such (and it worked great like that, again - BS 6, AV 14 Ravager, it was amazing)

New clearly sees more play, but almost totally as a foot unit joined to something where he serves as a beatstick.

So, i think my real call would be;

Better Dais? - Old.
Better Vect? - New.

Also, you do see Vect fielded more often now, and that has to count for something.

That's my call - what's yours?

The old Dais is definetly better, but I prefer the new Vect (without the Dais tho). Seize the intiative on 4+ is nice, and he's a actually suprisingly cost effective when ti comes ot killing things. The old one was just...Weird. Basically it was an av14 Ravager with bs6, which is pretty good, who fight like a Dread in close combat, except with less armour and only s4, which meant he should stay the hell away from powerfists and other walkers. A very unique interesting unit, but I don't think it was really worth the nearly 280 point price tag.

both Vect's brought something else to the table. The original Vect was another Ravager for those higher point games (and AV14 was awesome to have) that could beat something down in close combat if he had too

The new Vect not only is probably the best duelist in any current codex (short of Failbadon) and his sieze makes him worth his points in gold.

So basically its better synergy or a 4th ravager??? both are great in their own rights.

Hence I go with the tie vote for this one

@Shadow - that's what I ended up wimping out and doing too

Whether old Vect or new, they both possess dangerously massive amounts of swag capable of making any Imperial jealous. I vote tie, but I do slightly prefer the new Vect, as his 3+ wounding power pimpcane is amazing against anything, making him a beast in close combat.

First in for the 4th option! Not to call anyone a twit, but in short he's been too expensive for me in either incarnation.

Quote :

Whether old Vect or new, they both possess dangerously massive amounts of swag capable of making any Imperial jealous. I vote tie, but I do slightly prefer the new Vect, as his 3+ wounding power pimpcane is amazing against anything, making him a beast in close combat.

Hits most things on a 3+, and rerolls misses against everything... then wounds on 3+... is tre nice...

I think the new would tie in CC though... the old isn't gonna insta-gank him... And he does have haywire grenades, and a 4+ armor save (since i don't think the old one had a power weapon at all...), when his SF fails... But he is swinging first, and on that 6 he has a decent chance to cause some damage (5 or 6)... if he can somehow get out of CC long enough to take a shot with his obsidian orbs he can gain a couple of wounds back too... idk, and i dont really want to do the math, but i wouldnt say new is a total wash in CC against the old... (if you factor in the other unit he's running with (normally 9 BBs for me) you can get some real nice hurt out of him.

since i play assault based armies, both would be good. But Lets compare on my thoughts: 10 haywire grenades are gona make short work of almost any vehicle. And what do all marines have? Thats right: frag AND krak grenades - krak work like haywire - so you wont be assaulting any meq soon enough.
Even Fire Warriors of the Tau Empire have a good chance to pop that vehicle, thanks to EMP grenades 3 pts per model.
Where do marines and fw stand a chance against the new Vect with blood brides on the assault? Sure, they cost a lot of points and are going to be the "Bullsyonmybackshoot" configuration of your army. But Vect has chance to "regenerate" health, vhere as Pimp gets shot and..well, lets hope you are lucky...
Sure, old Vect is cheeper, but i would say much less effective.

If i would take named HQs, i WOULD go with new Vect. But since i dont, i just vote for the new one, for he fits my battle tacs better.

Ruke wrote:

I think the new would tie in CC though... the old isn't gonna insta-gank him... And he does have haywire grenades, and a 4+ armor save (since i don't think the old one had a power weapon at all...), when his SF fails... But he is swinging first, and on that 6 he has a decent chance to cause some damage (5 or 6)... if he can somehow get out of CC long enough to take a shot with his obsidian orbs he can gain a couple of wounds back too... idk, and i dont really want to do the math, but i wouldnt say new is a total wash in CC against the old... (if you factor in the other unit he's running with (normally 9 BBs for me) you can get some real nice hurt out of him.

btw... the old had a power weapon (he didnt actually attack, it was the incubi bodyguards that did the poking)

[quote="Enfernux]since i play assault based armies, both would be good. But Lets compare on my thoughts: 10 haywire grenades are gona make short work of almost any vehicle. And what do all marines have? Thats right: frag AND krak grenades - krak work like haywire - so you wont be assaulting any meq soon enough.
Even Fire Warriors of the Tau Empire have a good chance to pop that vehicle, thanks to EMP grenades 3 pts per model.
Where do marines and fw stand a chance against the new Vect with blood brides on the assault? Sure, they cost a lot of points and are going to be the "Bullsyonmybackshoot" configuration of your army. But Vect has chance to "regenerate" health, vhere as Pimp gets shot and..well, lets hope you are lucky...
Sure, old Vect is cheeper, but i would say much less effective.

If i would take named HQs, i WOULD go with new Vect. But since i dont, i just vote for the new one, for he fits my battle tacs better.[/quote]

btw with krak grenades you would need a six first off, then a 5 to glance (6 to pen) and then roll on the chart to kill vect. During that time old Vect is killing about 2 marines a turn. So if a squad of 10 runs in (we will say with a powerfist, because ofc all marines have one...) 6% chance of killing him with grenades, and the powerfist has a 22% chance of killing it. Pretty good odds if I say so myself...

and about effectiveness, sure in assault only new vect would win, but what about surivivability? There is something to be said about AV14 (well, we take it for granted because of lances, but trust me out there as I play other armies... AV14 is tough...) That provides durability like no other. And ofc Old Vect outclasses New Vect in shooting by far...

Raneth wrote:

First in for the 4th option! Not to call anyone a twit, but in short he's been too expensive for me in either incarnation.

+1(except I was second )

Ruke wrote:

I think the new would tie in CC though... the old isn't gonna insta-gank him... And he does have haywire grenades, and a 4+ armor save (since i don't think the old one had a power weapon at all...), when his SF fails... But he is swinging first, and on that 6 he has a decent chance to cause some damage (5 or 6)... if he can somehow get out of CC long enough to take a shot with his obsidian orbs he can gain a couple of wounds back too... idk, and i dont really want to do the math, but i wouldnt say new is a total wash in CC against the old... (if you factor in the other unit he's running with (normally 9 BBs for me) you can get some real nice hurt out of him.

Well, just remember, with the Haywire or plasma grenade it's 1 swing, only hits on a 6 and even then there's only limited assurance of doing anything to actually stop the Dais.
The Old will have 5-6 swings, hitting on 4s wounding on 3s and they're power weapons.
I just don't like the New Vects chances that much there.

I will certainly agree that if you take the full kit of new Vect that the 500+ point unit will be able to beat the 240 point unit but...shouldn't it?

Old Vect was awesome, and it's a shame the new Dais is... well... worthless. Still, no-one takes that anyway, and there is something heartening about a sigle infantry model carving through over 300 point's of stuff, so it's new for me.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

and about effectiveness, sure in assault only new vect would win, but what about surivivability? There is something to be said about AV14 (well, we take it for granted because of lances, but trust me out there as I play other armies... AV14 is tough...) That provides durability like no other. And ofc Old Vect outclasses New Vect in shooting by far...

as i said i run assault based armies, so if the new one is better in assault, then as i said i'd prefer using him in my assault based army. Survivability? Thats where the strategic genius comes in to factor. Since i converted my army to cc-base, i only lost one wound on an archon, and in the past months i only lost 4 incubi...out of 20+ games, aprox 85% win...i'd say i do fairly well with the tacs - i revise all mí battles on average throws, compare the actual throws, and it usually is fairly average for rolls.
Survivability? 24" movement 4+ cs, 6" minus range and 5++ isnt enough? Our vehicles are slick, very easy to hide. If i have to sacc a raider occupied by a liquiculus, so be it. In the end, i only lost 130 pts instead of 500...fair trade i would say.

Voted 3 but really should have been 4. These two are poles apart that I think it's almost impossible to compare them.

It did become increasingly more awkward as I went on with it. The point differential, the question of whether to give New the Dais (and if so - the 9 extra bodies), and, of course, dealing with one of the more unique units in the game with the Old one. Bleh.

So can you not use the old Vect anymore?