Defensive grenades (from PGL) and overwatch

<to moderators: I'll write this here because it's 6th ed , but you can move it to rules tread if it's more convenient>

I've read that defensive grenades give you cover against shooting... does it apply to overwatch fire???? Then our wyches would be safer when charging units. (And PGL would make more sense to them)

They get the Stealth rule, so long as the shooting unit is within 8" and your unit hasn't gone to ground. So yeah, defensive grenades make Overwatch not quite as painful. I can only assume it works against Overwatch, as it states "all shooting", and mentions nothing about excluding Overwatch.

Aroshamash wrote:

They get the Stealth rule, so long as the shooting unit is within 8" and your unit hasn't gone to ground. So yeah, defensive grenades make Overwatch not quite as painful. I can only assume it works against Overwatch, as it states "all shooting", and mentions nothing about excluding Overwatch.

Yup. There's a part of me that fully expects this to be FAQ'd just as using defensive grenades against a Counter-Attack was in 6th, where they reasoned "you should not be able to throw several types of grenades when charging" just before releasing GK who could do exactly that.

Note that because saves are determined per individual model, only those models within 8" of the target unit will get stealth, so a very heavy Overwwatch salvo (say Orks or IG) will likely still inflict severe casualties on wyches.

that is sweet!!!!


so we can ideally get the stealth cover save (if we assault trough cover is quite better) + the FnP (unless S6 weapons are shot) against overwatch.

Allandrel wrote:

Note that because saves are determined per individual model, only those models within 8" of the target unit will get stealth, so a very heavy Overwwatch salvo (say Orks or IG) will likely still inflict severe casualties on wyches.

..that is quite bitter

Allandrel wrote:

Note that because saves are determined per individual model, only those models within 8" of the target unit will get stealth, so a very heavy Overwwatch salvo (say Orks or IG) will likely still inflict severe casualties on wyches.

Actually - and I may be wrong here but in any case - the Stealth rule states that 'A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save...' etc therefore technically as long as one model is within 8" and therefore gaining Stealth the entire unit will get it and thus gain the Overwatch cover save.

Now the potential really complicated thing is how often - or when - you recheck to see if a unit still has a special rule, because technically whilst there are models within 8" the entire unit has the rule, but seeing as models are killed off closest to furthest you then have the situation where the models within 8" have now been killed off and there are still shots coming. Now technically seeing as when the shooting occurs all the models in the unit have the same save - due to all having Stealth - if you were using the 'fast rolling' system they mention then you - the player being shot at - end up with the advantage as you've already rolled all the saves with the advantage of your cover save before models are removed and you & your opponent realises that your models are no longer within 8". Whereas if you do it the 'slow' way then technically you'll notice as soon as you drop out of 8" and at that point you have the interesting query of if you can lose and gain special rules within such a small 'game time' period.

It feels a bit underhanded, but at the same time it's entirely reasonable to have rolled all of the same saves at the same time. I might be talking around myself at this point - in any case it's one of those things that seems reasonable both ways and likely will cause an argument somewhere.

PartridgeKing wrote:

Allandrel wrote:

Note that because saves are determined per individual model, only those models within 8" of the target unit will get stealth, so a very heavy Overwwatch salvo (say Orks or IG) will likely still inflict severe casualties on wyches.

Actually - and I may be wrong here but in any case - the Stealth rule states that 'A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover save...' etc therefore technically as long as one model is within 8" and therefore gaining Stealth the entire unit will get it and thus gain the Overwatch cover save.

Now the potential really complicated thing is how often - or when - you recheck to see if a unit still has a special rule, because technically whilst there are models within 8" the entire unit has the rule, but seeing as models are killed off closest to furthest you then have the situation where the models within 8" have now been killed off and there are still shots coming. Now technically seeing as when the shooting occurs all the models in the unit have the same save - due to all having Stealth - if you were using the 'fast rolling' system they mention then you - the player being shot at - end up with the advantage as you've already rolled all the saves with the advantage of your cover save before models are removed and you & your opponent realises that your models are no longer within 8". Whereas if you do it the 'slow' way then technically you'll notice as soon as you drop out of 8" and at that point you have the interesting query of if you can lose and gain special rules within such a small 'game time' period.

It feels a bit underhanded, but at the same time it's entirely reasonable to have rolled all of the same saves at the same time. I might be talking around myself at this point - in any case it's one of those things that seems reasonable both ways and likely will cause an argument somewhere.

You are correct, looking at the rules again I see that so long as a unit with defensive grenades is within 8" of the firer, the whole unit benefits from Stealth.

My take on the "does the unit stop being in stealth during the middle of wound allocation" question is that you determine a model's cover saves when the firing unit rolls to hit - see the "Focus Fire" rules for this being applied (BRB, pp. 18-19).

The same timing applies to determining if a model is in range of the firing unit. Even if all the models within 12" of the guy with the pistol have been removed as casualties when his wound is allocated, if he had a target in range when he rolled to hit his wound is still applied to the target unit.

I also cannot find any situations in the BRB where wound removal will result in a model becoming an invalid target or having its cover status changed, so I think defensive grenade stealth will apply throughout each wound allocation step.

Allandrel wrote:

I also cannot find any situations in the BRB where wound removal will result in a model becoming an invalid target

There is one - when after allocating a bunch of wounds from one type of weapons it turns out that all remaining models in the target unit are invisible to the shooter (eg. behind a wall or similar).
p.16, "out of sight"

however the same page says that a model is considered within range for the whole shooting if it was in range when to hit rolls were made, so the cover reamins unchanged (paragraph "out of range")