Sweeping Advances

So the change is we get to use the highest Initiative in the unit, not the majority - this is good to hear.

Of course, marines get it too and now ATSKNF has been changed to so they don't take wounds when caught but I digress.

This makes Lelith, Vect and the succubus a nice buff to any squad. Even the Archon, Drazhar and the Lady a decent buff to whatever they join.

Heck, even Urien or an Ancient helps them stay in combat a little longer if they win a round.

I suppose it also means Lelith will most likely break off if she somehow loses a round but I am not sure if that is a good thing.

Yeah I noticed this - its the same for pursuit too isn't it? Indirectly those Raider grenade launcher upgrades could be useful: -1 Ld to cause the opponents to flee, then we chase and kill them with our solid initiatives...

I'm looking forward to trying out Lelith for the first time ever actually...

Yeah, it's extremely hilarious when Necrons fail a leadership test. I've seen wannabe Necron HQ deathstars cut down that way.

The whole ATSKNF is a bit overpowered and contradicting to rules previously mentioned in the book.

getting penalties for denying challenges as it is against you honor.

But losing combat, trying to flee from it but fail horribly at it, and remain locked in combat without penalties? How is that working for honor and will to fight. at least is doesn't expose us to fire the turn afterwards. So it's either kill or continue fighting, which is kind of good.

I never bother with Lelith actually, it always felt like giving someone a poisoned blade but soak it poison that only works when you swallow it.... it's all very good, except for 1 think that spoils everything.
IMO a str 3, effectively, powerweapon feels a bit weird. especially with WS 9 and I 9. you hit them with cunning speed and effecientcy, if only they would have sharpened the blade in advance >.<

with rending or poison she would have been perfect I think. a minor change, but still a change to hit with something better than str 3.

I prefer baron, helions, beast. anything with str4, poison, or rending. I feel str 3 is a bit of usefull tool.

Another reason I always take a Succy

Arrex wrote:

Yeah, it's extremely hilarious when Necrons fail a leadership test. I've seen wannabe Necron HQ deathstars cut down that way.

Vect and 1 Bloodbride took out Imotekh and about 8 Immortals this way. A delicious revenge for the gratuitous lightning that had crippled 50% of my vehicles beforehand...he described Necrons as the "Yahtzee army".

Quote :

I never bother with Lelith actually, it always felt like giving someone a poisoned blade but soak it poison that only works when you swallow it.... it's all very good, except for 1 think that spoils everything.
IMO a str 3, effectively, powerweapon feels a bit weird. especially with WS 9 and I 9. you hit them with cunning speed and effecientcy, if only they would have sharpened the blade in advance >.<

Aye! But you forget that she gets bonus attacks against things with lower weapons skill... so yeah, don't run her up against any khornates, or hive tyrants, but against most other things you're going to get an additional 4 - 5 attacks on average (so 9-10, and then +1 on the charge). The reason she doesnt have drugs or a rending or poisoned weapon is because that would make her waaaaaaaaay OP. She's 175 points for 9-10 (on average) str3 attacks that ignore armor and she has a 4++/3++ save on top of that. Lellith is really not at all bad for her points, you just have to be discriminatory in what you attack with her, just like all our other units.

(just as a note, I've taken out demon princes of tzeentch with Lellith, and she's great for tanking things...)

I didn't forget about the 9-10 attacks. it's still only strength 3 and that is my major problem with her. (I looked up here rules before posting as I have never bothered with her and I couldn't remember why)

It's like throwing marsmallows in a gunfight. You can claim you throw like a ten marsmallows in the time the other guy fired once... but yeah, it's still marsmallows versus bullets....

agreed, see might be good at tanking, but the squad she joint not that much. BAM, gone are all the points

I think see it only fit for challanges.

But the reply something on topic:
IN general taking the highest initiative isn't that much of a deal for us. often our cc units have like 6+I. seems more than enough to capture the fleeing squad.

ON the otherhand it is now much more likely to find other armies with a IC to boost the lot.
I like it when people are searching for the good things the book brings for us. sadly I do not think we are gainig here. The increased nightfight rate is the biggest buff for our army I think.

Dooming things before you charge them makes all of the difference with her my friends... It turns her from being rather good to being a murder factory.

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Dooming things before you charge them makes all of the difference with her my friends... It turns her from being rather good to being a murder factory.

And how does that make her different than any other str4/rending/poison unit that charges a doomed unit?
All units gain a buff, so you can't use it to claim it maxe Lelith stronger. And yes, she might have more attacks so in she gains a little more buff because she has more attacks. (with doom something around 8 hits but 4.5 kills against meq) (doom is reroll hit and wound right?)

what else do we get with 174+ points and doom=
17 wracks poisened blades @169+ pts (2 units charge)= minimum 10+ kills (prety deadly)

Baron + 3 helions @171 pts (weird combo, but since lelith is not going to run alone either, asume that more helions will join in a real game)
= 4.5-5 (funny I thought these to be stronger) this includes shooting, but NOT hammer of wrath.

8 incubi @175+ pts (powerswords)= 13.5 kills
I don't care to calculate incubi with sucubi or archon or anything, makes the wargear to broad.

EDIT:
since I'm bored I'm adding rending units:

6 harlequins (1 of them shadowseer) 6 kisses @162 points. = 5 kills with rending normal CC and shooting.

8 razorwings, 4 masters @ 168 pts = 10 kills with 1 shooting, 3 rending and 6 normal (beast+master)


calculated accordng to
((shooting number *BS factor + misses * BS factor) * strength/poison(4+)factor+remaining hits * strength/poison factor) * (1/3) marine saving
((attack number *WS factor + misses * WS factor) * strength/poison(4+)factor+remaining hits * strength/poison factor) * (1/3) marine saving if allowed

NOTE: I'm only stating killyness of units. survivabilty of lelith it unquestionable.

Lelith is nowhere near cost effective as a Succubus for almost half her costs. She is a poor choice through and through. If she had a 2+ Invul, then I might consider her (keep word being consider), but right now she's just not viable for a 175 point model.