How do we deal with flyers?

Hijallo wrote:

Gobsmakked wrote:

The game is fine. Please stick to the topic at hand.

No, it isn't. Because of what we are discussing in this thread.

Because of silly flyer spam w/ scoring units inside and "disembark-at-any-point" rule. Noone have _reliable_ way to win against such a list. May be it'll be fixed later, but on current state 6Ed looks like bad joke.

I played against a Mech Guard list with three Vendettas the other day. Anything beyond that is redundant with Squadron rules. The key was to break his army before the Vendettas even came in. I imagine that a blob guard player with Vendettas would also be annoying but more manageable in other respects.

I'm with Sleepypillow on this. Just say "No" or table him. Both should be fairly easy if he has that many fliers.

As I assume I am speaking to mostly DEldar players, I don't think we have too much worry about flyers (see my comments above). The only army that can get flyers on the board cheaper is Imperial Guard and (maybe) Necrons. The problem with the idea of "Flyer spam" are as follows:

1. Dedicated Transport flyers are the only way to get a lot of flyers on the board. Most are almost as dangerous to the unit inside as those outside. When it blows up, it's more collateral damage than normal transports. Not to mention disembarkation dangers when trying to grav drop (or whatever GW calls it).

2. Flyers have to come on Zooming and always from reserve, which means that most flyer-heavy lists won't be able to take any objectives with the units inside until at least turn 3. Minimum. As Deldar have a great Alpha strike capability (buffed by night-fighting rules). Blast whatever they have on turn one off the table. Without support to draw fire away from flyers (fragile by their very nature), they should get downed quickly if coming in piece-meal (depends on reserve rolls).

3. The Warlord traits that I view as best for Dark Eldar is the one that allows automatic night-fighting on a roll of 2. In that same tree (5 I believe, going from memory only) is that reserve rolls for the opponent are +1 more difficult. While this is randomized, it is another reason to choose this particular talent tree when picking Warlord traits.

4.The point cost for Flyers are high. Even for armies with cheaper flyers, the only way to truly spam Flyers is to take them as Dedicated Transports. This means that you not only having to buy the Flyers, but the unit that is supposed to be embarked in it. While you can take the minimum squad numbers to minimize point cost per unit, you then have a tiny foot force, should that transport get popped (example - IG using 5 models per Vendetta are essentially relying on the transport for success. If those five guys get out in the open, they'll be torn apart). For the Deldar, these flyers are just their own unit, so it's a lot easier to stick them into our list without worrying about wasting our troop choices and/or unnecessary point cost.

5. With hull points, vehicles are easier to kill for lower strength weapons. Combine that with the fact that all flyers (to my knowledge) have armor at or lower than 12 means that mid-strength weapons that dump multiple shots (such as disintegrators or, my favorite example, Ork lootas) could easily glance a flyer to death, BS1 or no. Dump enough dice at it. and it will fall.

O.S.P. wrote:

or, my favorite example, Ork lootas

to ork players, bs1 wont be so much a decrease

I see you are clever, but teach me how to kill, for example, 4 Wraiths+Necron Desto Lord hiding in the corner w/ maybe squad or two on foot, or 20 Necron Warriors w/ some Fearless IC or IG blob + some distraction squads in chimeras.

*remember, if even you managed to destroy necrons - Lords are Ever-Living so w/o orb on 4+ they get back.

O.S.P. wrote:

5. With hull points, vehicles are easier to kill for lower strength weapons. Combine that with the fact that all flyers (to my knowledge) have armor at or lower than 12 means that mid-strength weapons that dump multiple shots (such as disintegrators or, my favorite example, Ork lootas) could easily glance a flyer to death, BS1 or no. Dump enough dice at it. and it will fall.

Haywire Blasters?? Not multiple shots, true, but I am thinking that their profile would possibly help alleviate the BS1 effect a bit. They have decent range too, not spectacular, but ....

HWB against flyers? Are you kidding me?

There isn't hellish way to take 'em cheaper then 2 per 5 scourges. So, at 240 pts squad you can make 4 shots at BS1.

Chance of result like "all miss" is roughly equal to 50%. Half of times your expensive squad will do literally nothing.

For taking flyer away, you need to score 3 hits, let's assume you can make three rolls on 2+ w/o failing.
So, (1/6)^3 is chance of three subsequent hits. 1/216. Is it what you are looking for?

Gobsmakked wrote:

The game is fine. Please stick to the topic at hand.

QFT, brother. QFT....

Seriously, the game is fine. Did you really think GW would release a totally broken ruleset that completely ruins most armies? They do this little thing called "playtesting" to prevent that outcome. Sure GW isn't as good as Privateer Press (public beta testing), but they aren't going to alienate legions of players by releasing awful rule-sets either.

Have you even played a "flyer spam" army? Have you played one more than once? You cannot glance at rules on paper and declare something "broken". You gotta play SEVERAL games.

I remember back in early 5th ed when Doom of Ma'alantai came out and all of us local players thought he was broken. Well, we were still using mixed armies and foot infantry from 4th edition, so of course Doom inflicted massive damage on us via sporepod deepstrikes. Guess what, as 5th edition wore on, and we fully mechanized our infantry, Doom became nothing more than a waste of points. So don't scream the sky is falling yet, it's just too early to jump to conclusions. Quit whining.

Dealing with AV units is strait enough, bring in some fliers and mass dark matter but how do we deal with Flying Daemons MC's like Fateweaver + Lord of Change combo? Mass darklight is pointless with an invuln save and a T value unit and we lack good torrent fire units with AA capabilities.

Those are flying flamer (that glance on 4+) templates with a 3+ reroll invuln save and 3/4 wounds. I tried mass splinter fire and after over 140 shots they were still kicking my ass.

P.S

Today i've seen two more players of Necron Schythewing. I didn't see them in club before...

We were competitive at 5e, but with such stupid silly broken lists we are going into "fun" section perhaps, leaving "POWER LEAGUE" to Matt Ward Martin Sues and Guard.

What a crap.

Hijallo wrote:

I see you are clever, but teach me how to kill, for example, 4 Wraiths+Necron Desto Lord hiding in the corner w/ maybe squad or two on foot, or 20 Necron Warriors w/ some Fearless IC or IG blob + some distraction squads in chimeras.

*remember, if even you managed to destroy necrons - Lords are Ever-Living so w/o orb on 4+ they get back.

Dark Eldar have this little thing called the "Shattershard". Try reading the codex, you might find cheap pieces of wargear designed to sidestep resurrection orbs and invulnerable saves.

Flying MC don't have Skyfire rule, and w/ S5 Tzeench greaters wouldn't hurt flyers much. It's flyer edtition, so take flyers.

re-rollable 3++ is good as always was, but remember - their test of failing happen after hits, not wounds. 1 test per one firing unit, on 1-2 flying monster is crippled and suffer S9 hit.

nalfen wrote:

Dealing with AV units is strait enough, bring in some fliers and mass dark matter but how do we deal with Flying Daemons MC's like Fateweaver + Lord of Change combo? Mass darklight is pointless with an invuln save and a T value unit and we lack good torrent fire units with AA capabilities.

Those are flying flamer (that glance on 4+) templates with a 3+ reroll invuln save and 3/4 wounds. I tried mass splinter fire and after over 140 shots they were still kicking my ass.

Shoot them down, then hit them with the dark lance. Might better read the new rulebook a little more closely to see what happens if a flying monstrous creature gets hit.

Arrex, how you suppose to attack wraithes in the corner on the first turn w/ flamer templates? And remember, SS kills Lord only on "6".

Hijallo wrote:

Arrex, how you suppose to attack wraithes in the corner on the first turn w/ flamer templates? And remember, SS kills Lord only on "6".

Oh, you're trying to table them on the 1st turn instead of outplaying their army though the rest of the game? Haven't we already discussed how limited fliers are past their 2nd turn alpha strike?

Most assumptions in this thread was about tabling flyer-spam on 1st turn. I just pointed that if opponent isn't an idiot, it's impossible.

Flyer spam after alpha strike is fine. Coz alpha strike would be always performed against AA units, then they are in relative safety. On Turn5 troops will be disembarked on all objectives, and pray Dark Muses there will be turn6 and lucky shots - may be, may be, you can score a draw or minor loss...

Hijallo wrote:

Flying MC don't have Skyfire rule, and w/ S5 Tzeench greaters wouldn't hurt flyers much. It's flyer edtition, so take flyers.

re-rollable 3++ is good as always was, but remember - their test of failing happen after hits, not wounds. 1 test per one firing unit, on 1-2 flying monster is crippled and suffer S9 hit.

Ohhh, thank you so much, i missed that little gem of a rule, guess my opponent missed it as well XD

*ahem*

1. Most real tables have this thing called "terrain". Fliers cannot be placed on top of ruined churches or large rock formation. You can use this thing called "terrain" to shelter your own units, or, being Dark Eldar, you can get cover saves, jink saves, turbo boosting saves, etc. Use these techniques to prevent yourself from being obliterated by their fliers on turn 2.

2. Fliers must move 18 inches. Fliers must be pointed at their targets to engage them. Fliers can only turn 90 degrees BEFORE moving. Are you starting to see the limitation here? Basically, if you've got any brains, fliers aren't gonna get but one turn of solid shooting. Survive Turn 2, and plunge under them.

3. Now start killing Necron ground forces in their deployment zone. (Here's a hint, Necrons suck in hand to hand, and you'll easily sweeping advance them) Kill all their troop units.

4. Use your brain, measure carefully, and place your models so fliers have to zoom over them. Think about it this way, if you can get enough of your force onto their side of the board, you could potentially crowd their deployment zone in such a way that the fliers simply cannot move onto the table obliquely, and must instead go over them.

Hijallo wrote:

I see you are clever, but teach me how to kill, for example, 4 Wraiths+Necron Desto Lord hiding in the corner w/ maybe squad or two on foot, or 20 Necron Warriors w/ some Fearless IC or IG blob + some distraction squads in chimeras.

*remember, if even you managed to destroy necrons - Lords are Ever-Living so w/o orb on 4+ they get back.

The key for any Alpha strike is focus fire and to take out what's important. You just described IG having "distraction" chimeras. If they're meant to be a distraction, don't shoot at them. Chimeras are slow and the most dangerous they can be is with Melta Vets. However, with Night Shields on our transports, they have to get within 3" to get the full advantage of meltas.

Once you've decided what's not important to shoot at, dump buckets of dice at what remains. Another goal of the Alpha strike should be to rack up pain tokens and demoralize your opponent, so when you're taking on foot-slogging lists, small, elite units make juicy targets. Get the pain token quickly and take the wind right out of your opponent's sails. Also, if the Warlord is with it's 2 miscellaneous objectives down.

Don't stop until key targets are eliminated. We don't get pain tokens for mostly killing something.

As far as range goes, it shouldn't be a problem for us. Not only are we fast enough to close any gap quickly, but we have several guns at the 36" range (Splinter Cannon, Disintegrator, Dark Lance). A lot of these are on vehicles that can get the full use out of them while still moving 12".

Worried about high Toughness units? Take Venoms as transports (dual Splinter Cannons). Toughness means absolutely nothing to poison weapons.

Worried about large blobs? See above....also, swap Dark Lances out for Disintegrators (it's free).

Hijallo wrote:

P.S

Today i've seen two more players of Necron Schythewing. I didn't see them in club before...

We were competitive at 5e, but with such stupid silly broken lists we are going into "fun" section perhaps, leaving "POWER LEAGUE" to Matt Ward Martin Sues and Guard.

What a crap.

Speaking as a Guard player, I can't say that I appreciate being lumped in with the WAAC players you describe. Not all good Guard lists run Vendettas (pure Airborne is all but dead thanks to the fact that you auto-lose if you have no models on the table at the end of a given game turn); in fact, a lot of people were whining about Guard mechanized being overpowered due to cheap infantry, AV 12+ spam and a truly insane number of blast and ordnance weapons available.

However, there is a counter for everything, if you have the wit to see it, the imagination to create it and the skill to use it. Currently, there are four factions with flyer vehicles (Imperial Guard [Valkyrie, Vendetta], Dark Eldar [Razorwing, Voidraven], Blood Angels [Storm Raven] and Grey Knights [Storm Raven], and two with flying MCs [Tyranids and Chaos Daemons]. While I'm a little fuzzy on how many the last two can field, I know for a fact that the cheapest flyer vehicle available to any codex (I'm deliberately ignoring the new flyers and stuff from Forgeworld here because right now, I'm on break) is the Imperial Guard Valkyrie, and the most effective for its points is probably the Imperial Guard Vendetta.

Having played pure Airborne back in 5th edition, I can tell you that the flyers the Guard have available to them are not cheap, since in order to get them in the numbers needed to make them effective they add up really quickly. Additionally, the Guard flyers' role is to support the infantry, which as we all know need numbers to be effective.

The problem with this is that Guard do not play that way, and only a fool would think otherwise. Space Marine vehicles exist to support their infantry, but with Guard, it's the other way around; the infantry support the vehicles, whether they're tanks, walkers, flyers or artillery, it doesn't matter. The only reason why Guard Airborne even works is because the build can apply the overwhelming firepower the Guard bring to the table wherever the player wants. The Airborne build cannot handle attrition very well, unlike just about every other Guard build out there.

Space Marine Airborne lists are even less able to survive dropping their troops off in order to capture objectives, or even shoot. The Blood Angels build isn't at all viable below 1,500 points, and I'm not sure that Grey Knights Airborne is viable at all (the only one that would remotely work would be a Coteaz build, but you'd still have to haul the Dreads around in order to make up for the lack of fire support the Storm Raven can effectively bring to bear, especially since the Grey Knights model has worse missiles than the Blood Angels' do).

Your complaints about Necron Airborne being unbeatable are simply not worth hearing. Firstly, Ever-Living only works if the model can be placed within 3" of the token. So, a simple solution would be to destroy the unit he is with (preferably with shooting), assault him and beat his face in with Wyches. Then, when you consolidate later, make sure that you space your models such that he can't deploy his Ever-Living model within 3" of the marker and at least 1" away from any of your models. With a squad of ten Wyches, that shouldn't be all that difficult.

Secondly, characters do not count as part of the unit for Reanimation Protocols. So, even if your Ever-Living model came back, he wouldn't be able to bring back the rest of his unit with him, especially since all models that come back through Reanimation Protocols must be placed in coherency with a model from the same unit that did not come back from Reanimation Protocols that turn.

Thirdly, Necron flyers aren't all that great, anyway. The most worrisome one, in my opinion, is the Night Scythe due to its ridiculous transport capacity; while the Doom Scythe looks scary, its Death Ray is short-ranged and doesn't ignore cover saves.

So, the solution to the flyer spam "problem" is something that I would think is very simple: Alpha strike what they have on the table. If you get the enemy reserve debuff trait, it'll make your job easier. When their flyers arrive, they won't likely be coming all at once, so you can afford to focus your AT fire on them; statistically, you'll do some damage if you pour fire from a list with a decent number of darklights, and they can't afford to take damage because their build is based around the insane mobility that flyers provide. Finally, your opponent is most likely going to have to disembark in order to capture objectives, usually around turn 4 or 5. That's when you drop the hammer on his disembarking infantry; if he doesn't have scoring units, he can't capture objectives, and his vehicles can't deny them, either.

Or, you could always continue to complain about how broken the factions with flyers are, if that's your thing. While you're busy working on that, though, I'll be working on beating them. We'll see who gets better results.

I see many words, but i also see no numbers.
It's too late here, but i'm sure someone will make calculations. How many flyers can you destroy if you managed to park in enemy deployment at Turn2? (Let's assume we're going first). How far should you move? (in some cases, Flyers will be able to pivot on extreme angle before arriving and shoot at you).

Could you hide your troops and survive aerial assault until Turn5, when they will start disembarking?

And say "Necro sucks in CC" to Wraithes w/ Destro Lord, let them laugh.

===

Also, there is cheap ADL w/ Comm-Link. Reserves on 2+, yes. But we are going to assault their deployment, we will probably take control over it.

theblackjackal wrote:

Hijallo wrote:

P.S

Today i've seen two more players of Necron Schythewing. I didn't see them in club before...

We were competitive at 5e, but with such stupid silly broken lists we are going into "fun" section perhaps, leaving "POWER LEAGUE" to Matt Ward Martin Sues and Guard.

What a crap.

Or, you could always continue to complain about how broken the factions with flyers are, if that's your thing. While you're busy working on that, though, I'll be working on beating them. We'll see who gets better results.

*snap*

Doom and gloom only helps your enemy. Dark Eldar have never been for the timid. They're not an army you can put on auto-pilot like the Grey Knights (I'm not hating, as I started off with GK...until I realized that they're tactically uninteresting). The strategies you choose will have very real consequences. Wise choices have to be made. Mistakes must ultimately be made.

Hold your head high. Dark Eldar are few and far between (at least in my meta). We may not always win, but at least we aren't filthy Space Marines.

O.S.P. wrote:

Hijallo wrote:

I see you are clever, but teach me how to kill, for example, 4 Wraiths+Necron Desto Lord hiding in the corner w/ maybe squad or two on foot, or 20 Necron Warriors w/ some Fearless IC or IG blob + some distraction squads in chimeras.

*remember, if even you managed to destroy necrons - Lords are Ever-Living so w/o orb on 4+ they get back.

The key for any Alpha strike is focus fire and to take out what's important. You just described IG having "distraction" chimeras. If they're meant to be a distraction, don't shoot at them. Chimeras are slow and the most dangerous they can be is with Melta Vets. However, with Night Shields on our transports, they have to get within 3" to get the full advantage of meltas.

Once you've decided what's not important to shoot at, dump buckets of dice at what remains. Another goal of the Alpha strike should be to rack up pain tokens and demoralize your opponent, so when you're taking on foot-slogging lists, small, elite units make juicy targets. Get the pain token quickly and take the wind right out of your opponent's sails. Also, if the Warlord is with it's 2 miscellaneous objectives down.

Don't stop until key targets are eliminated. We don't get pain tokens for mostly killing something.

As far as range goes, it shouldn't be a problem for us. Not only are we fast enough to close any gap quickly, but we have several guns at the 36" range (Splinter Cannon, Disintegrator, Dark Lance). A lot of these are on vehicles that can get the full use out of them while still moving 12".

Worried about high Toughness units? Take Venoms as transports (dual Splinter Cannons). Toughness means absolutely nothing to poison weapons.

Worried about large blobs? See above....also, swap Dark Lances out for Disintegrators (it's free).

Thx for telling me basis of Dark Eldar, but perhaps i've missed context...

Teach me how to kill it on Turn1. Before any flyers will arrive. Purpose of ground force on flyer-spam list is hold the ground during 1st turn and kill some enemies who pose treat to aircraft. Or simply Hold frak Ground.
All anti-infantry guns of any army will be pointed at them, so ground force is dead anyway. Unless it's mechanized, but perhaps you'll choose to make reliable shots on ground vehicles rather then trying desperately to strip away one hull-point from one of ten flyers, so they are dead anyway.

O.S.P. wrote:

Or, you could always continue to complain about how broken the factions with flyers are, if that's your thing. While you're busy working on that, though, I'll be working on beating them. We'll see who gets better results.

*snap*

Doom and gloom only helps your enemy. Dark Eldar have never been for the timid. They're not an army you can put on auto-pilot like the Grey Knights (I'm not hating, as I started off with GK...until I realized that they're tactically uninteresting). The strategies you choose will have very real consequences. Wise choices have to be made. Mistakes must ultimately be made.

Hold your head high. Dark Eldar are few and far between (at least in my meta). We may not always win, but at least we aren't filthy Space Marines.

Nonsence. We are discussing how to defeat flyer-heavy armies, not the flavour of DE. Holding your head hight wouldn't help you destroy mass flying nastyness.

Double post merged. Please use the 'Edit' function in future, thanks - Cavash.

Hijallo wrote:

And say "Necro sucks in CC" to Wraithes w/ Destro Lord, let them laugh.

mmm...dont incubi with an archon make short work of that? Ahh, as i recal wraiths have invuls...mmm...shoot'em to death. Thats one unite down.
assault unites? Incubi, BB, Mandrakes, Wyches, BMs, Helions? Good from this? Duno 'bout helions, dont think mandrakes are worth it, but the other options are quite good.
ow, and wracks, qrots to. I almost forgot about my ZOMBIE! army

what are wraiths again? FA? And arent they expensive? What, wyches can tarpit them? ow goody goody.
or i can plant'em with a planet-sized splinter hailo from gunboats and venoms, and intoxicate the bejeezus out of'em? Pretty much so.

Fliers come in turn2+, if its a flyer spam, the opponent wont have much on the field...whats the board? 40"? whats our speed with flat out? 36"? How long is a vehicle? Yep, in the dep zone in turn 1, the only thing that can do anything is the few models in the ops dep zone, and outflanking flyers, for a flyerspam army.
What do we do now? Massacre the necrons back to their toombs...ow wait...that energy core does look kind of shiny...i'll keep it.

Hijallo wrote:

O.S.P. wrote:

Or, you could always continue to complain about how broken the factions with flyers are, if that's your thing. While you're busy working on that, though, I'll be working on beating them. We'll see who gets better results.

*snap*

Doom and gloom only helps your enemy. Dark Eldar have never been for the timid. They're not an army you can put on auto-pilot like the Grey Knights (I'm not hating, as I started off with GK...until I realized that they're tactically uninteresting). The strategies you choose will have very real consequences. Wise choices have to be made. Mistakes must ultimately be made.

Hold your head high. Dark Eldar are few and far between (at least in my meta). We may not always win, but at least we aren't filthy Space Marines.

Nonsence. We are discussing how to defeat flyer-heavy armies, not the flavour of DE. Holding your head hight wouldn't help you destroy mass flying nastyness.

It will certainly help. Warhammer 40k is not just a numbers game. Strategy will always have a human element. Humans make mistakes and mistakes can be exploited. It's a very real strategy that could be lumped into what Fritz 40k describes as "Tricknology". If you are entirely convinced that you are going to lose each and every time you see flyers in 6th edition, then you've already lost. By "keeping your head up" you're going to be better able to spot mistakes on your opponent's part and use those to bury them. Also, your going to be more alert to your own activity on the board, helping keep your mistakes to a minimum.

I use psychological warfare to my advantage all the time in my local gaming communities. I'm one of the only steady Dark Eldar players. I intentionally switch up army lists and tactics often to ensure that at least some things are unknown. Men fear the unknown. Fear leads to mistakes. Mistakes are what I can use to beat a better list than mine.

It's just like a game of poker. It doesn't matter if you're bluffing. If your opponent folds of his own volition, you win. It's not that your army will ALWAYS win, but your vibe should be telling your opponent that you are about to make him cry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about being a dick at the table (name-calling and being unsportsmanlike). It's the little things. A confident swagger. A sly smirk when he's announcing a unit on his list. Announcing some rarely used item from our Arcane Wargear section that sounds terrifying (even if it's not particularly effective). It creates doubt in your opponent. You need him to think that you have a hundred ways to ruin his day and that you've planned for everything.

You can cultivate that doubt and fear into mistakes by reinforcing it with your army list. You have Vect? Let your opponent take first turn and then snatch it away from them. Lady Malys? Feint to one side, re-deploy against a weak side. The Duke? Casually mention your ability to deepstrike all transports and strongly consider reserves. Reaver Jetbikes? Get in their face with as much dice as possible (really easy with 48" movement and a potential for 10d3 hits just for running over a unit) and use them as a paper tiger. There's almost endless possibilities in our Codex for doing these sorts of things. I've tried all of these strategies above and they've all been effective. Not because my list was inherently better, but because I kept my opponent on the ropes.

"There is nothing more dreadful than the habit of doubt... It is a thorn that irritates and hurts; it is a sword that kills.”

You can either wield that sword or be struck down by it. Your choice.

Well said, O.S.P. The doom and gloom in these threads leads nowhere. Doubting yourself, thinking yourself inferior - that's going to lose you every single game. An opponent with broken morale is already defeated, he doesn't think ahead, he abandons his plans, makes mistakes and generally keeps losing. Never be intimidated by your foe, no matter what it is. If your opponent already has you cowering just by announcing his list, you've lost then and there, because this is a game of not only solid list building, but adaptive tactics. For our army, ability to adapt and think on the fly is more crucial than in most codices.

Dark Eldar don't forgive mistakes and abhor weakness. They won't follow a leader that doubts himself.