Best 500pt list to Expand on Battleforce

So I am just looking to get back into the game after a long hiatus, and Dark Eldar (with their fantastic new models) is the army I have now chosen. I was planning on buying the Battleforce in order to create a 500pt list from, but I am having trouble with decent ways on expanding on it. From what the photos show, at its base, the Battleforce would provide me with the following (updated! 7/21/12):

HQ
1x Archon, Shadow Field

2x Troops:

10x Warriors in a Raider with Night Shields
9x Wyches in a Raider with Night Shields

1x Fast Attack:

3x Reavers, Cluster Caltrops

Total: 496pts


Since it is obvious that this is not 500pts (can I post points values?), I ask you all what I should purchase or upgrade to use up the rest of the points? Obviously I will need an HQ, so that would be a good start. The Talos/Cronos Engines are really cool looking but seem rather ineffective, so I am not sure if I should even go near those.

As far as what I plan on using this for, I am planning on just keeping it in the 500pts level (so no escalation league or anything) in order to play with friends in smaller games or as a teammate in larger games.

Any and all suggestions would be most appreciated!

I would get a second raider, and an Archon/Succubus(insert HQ you want to use) and you are good to go.

I would look at expanding it to 750pts... Much easier to do, since you're gonna want to spend around 80-150 points on your hq at this level.

Ruke wrote:

I would look at expanding it to 750pts... Much easier to do, since you're gonna want to spend around 80-150 points on your hq at this level.

I will consider it, but I need to start somewhere first. What would be the best HQ for such an expansion then?

I would get an Archon - lots of options, fits into shooty or assault, and you can use him to represent some of other HQ's that have not yet been released at higher point values (such as Duke or Vect).

Then I would look into buying a Ravager. You'll need a couple by the time you break 1k and they can be doubled as raiders.

As mentioned above I really have no intention of breaking 1k, just due to budget, time restraints and availability of other players to play with. I remember doing so in the past and was quite unhappy with the result.

So a few more questions before I make an updated list:

I have been hearing that Archons are now only so so in 6th edition. Should I still go for it or should I go for a Succubus or a Haemonculus (because according to reports, they are still pretty good in 6th)? Additionally, which unit should I stick the HQ in? My assumption is to put it with the wyches, but I am not sure.

I hear Haywire Grenades are great with the Wyches. Should I spend the points on them or are they kinda expensive based on how many points I am trying to work with?

With the addition of an HQ, I am usually left with around 100pts left to spend on things. Should I look to getting the Warriors in a transport (and then spend the remaining points on upgrades) or should I take a different unit entirely?

Again, thanks for all of the advice so far. And sorry for being a bit wishy washy-I just really want to make sure to have a fully hammered out list so that I don't spend money on anything I don't need.

I am not sure how the succubus would be better than the archon simply due to 6th edition. She is cheaper, but you also get what you pay for. If you're trying to fill out points with less money, I would go with the archon. Warriors in a transport are always a good idea. You can always proxy a raider as a Ravager if at a later point you feel you want to try the Ravager. The haemmy is always a good buy. He is useful in almost every list.

At such a low point game, I have a feeling you won't find much mech. The haywire grenades may be a waste of points depending on what you play against.

I am a fan of Haemy - he allows me to take units of wracks who can dig in next to an objective in cover and be very difficult to get out. Besides bringing some pain along...he also has a variety of options depending on what type of list you want to play.

Haywire grenades..I don't leave home without them. They easily wreck vehicles for us...if your opponent isn't using vehicles (orks/nids perhaps) then the points would be wasted.

When I first started, I made the mistake of going for more units without the transport - we simply need transports to get to where we're going being simply too fragile to be footslogging all the way. If I had my army to build all over again, I'd definitely grab transports with the building of each unit.

An Archon and a raider are the best purchase from the box imo. Of you kit him out for close combat you can easily hit 750 with those purchases

Ok cool, progress. I have updated the opening list to reflect the addition of a second Raider and an Archon. Now this leaves me with around 70 points to spend on gear. Which unit should I stick the archon in and how should I deck him out? Additionally, should I add any upgrades to the raiders or units or should I add a few more Reavers to the mix to make the unit fatter?

if i had those models and was playing a 500 pt game. This is what I would field.


btw. 500 is really hard to do.

HQ (95 Pts)
Archon - Shadowfield, Venom Blade, Splinter Pistol

Troops(315 pts)

Kabalite Warriors - 10 Warriors in a Raider, no upgrades.

Wyches - 9 Wyches with 1x Razorflails in a Raider with Chain-Snares.

Fast Attack ( 86pts)
3 Reaver Jetbikes - Cluster Caltops




Alternatively, Id drop the cluster caltrops and swap it for a Heat Lance. Using the saved points to get either a Splinter Cannon on the warriors, Splinter racks for their raider, or a better weapon for the archon (Power Weapon or upgrade to a Blast Pistol)

Damnosus wrote:

Additionally, should I add any upgrades to the raiders or units or should I add a few more Reavers to the mix to make the unit fatter?

You can run them a lot of ways. Three with a heat lance is nice "harassment" unit, however if they take a casualty they will have to test leadership, If get your positioning right it's not far off to think of it as a mobile heat lance with three wounds. They can also be handy for last minute contesting objectives if you went second.

If you want to bump them up to six, they are a bit more versatile as blade-vanes become more effective, and they can take an extra heat lance which makes them more reliable at popping tanks. The biggest downside is three reaver is similar in cost money wise to either a raider/RazorwingRavager.

Ok opening list updated with a final list. Let me know what you guys think!

What exact point total are you at with this new version?

I still really feel like those Reavers are going to be near useless without either a Heat Lance OR Cluster Caltrops. Bladevanes alone aren't going to do much, the Cluster Cals really give them the brutality they deserve. And they can't do any damage to a tank without a Heat Lance.


On the Archon:
Agoniser is good, but at this points limit it is very costly.

If you happen to be at 498 for example:
Downgrading it to a Venom Blade losing the ability to penetrate 3+ armor saves, but you are gauranteed to wound on 5 of 6 attacks, and you can re-roll those 1's if your strength is equal to or greater than the enemy toughness. So with his 6 attacks on a charge you can hit an average of 4, and wound with 3.33 of those attacks. Against a 3+ save unit that is 1.1 wounds through. Agoniser would wound on a 4+ usually, it wont be often you get any better than that at S3. So he would get 2 wounds on average. Enemy will have a 6+ invuln at least and you deal 1.66 wounds. You lose .54 wounds but pick up 10 points.

Against a 2+ Model the Venom Blade Shines, The Agoniser gets 0.33 wounds on the assault round, the Venom Blade comes out at near double that with 0.55

Notably, the Power Sword operates very closely to the Agoniser against anyone below Tough 5 and also saves 5 points. Or a Power Axe which gives you AP2 and is godly (but strikes on init 1). I use a huskblade in higher point games where i have the points to spare, because i love instant deathing HQs.

Archon without either a Shadow Field or a Clone field is not worth his space in the raider. Another Wych would actually be more survivable than your HQ with his 5+. A haemonculus would give them all a pain token and grant Feel No Pain. A Succubus would be much cheaper and be stronger in the assault. Pick one and take it, I prefer the Shadow Field, even with its steep point cost.

23 points you spent on haywires:
You already have 2 Dark Lances, And if you choose to pick it up, a Heat Lance. At 500 points it is very difficult to find points for one transport, let alone two. We have very cheap transports and cheap units, which is what allows us the ones we do get. For a lot of space marine armies, a 500 point game would literally be an HQ and two troops and nothing else. IG and Orks might be the only thing you'll see more than 1 vehicle on at this many points.

@Mnemonic: I am at 499pts with the current list. That being said, you have made some very good points, so I am gonna play with some of the points in order to make the Reavers more effective and make my HQ more efficient.

Oh and what the heck is a Power Axe? I don't see it in the codex.

Codex upgrade option is "Power Weapon"

We can take any basic power weapon with that option from the 40k Main Rulebook. Which means we can take the AP2 Power Axe with Unweildy( initiative 1).

Theres a lot of talk about it on other threads from discussing the 6th edition rules changes. You'll see a lot of Archon lists around here featuring power axes because they get 1.66 wounds even on terminators on the charge.

@Mnemonic: ah, see I haven't gotten a chance to take a good look at the full rule book .

I updated the list again. Thanks for the feedback thus far, more is always helpful though!

Mnemonic wrote:

Theres a lot of talk about it on other threads from discussing the 6th edition rules changes. You'll see a lot of Archon lists around here featuring power axes because they get 1.66 wounds even on terminators on the charge.

1.33 wounds on the charge due to the termies 5++ (assuming hitting on 3+).
1 wounds on the charge against a 4++.
0.66 wounds on the charge against a 3++.

But you strike last so you have to survive a round of combat so when comparing it to the venom blade (striking first) then you need to take into account two rounds of combat (a venom blade character surviving a round of combat fights in two rounds, a power axe character has to survive two rounds to fight two rounds, if that makes sense).

1.01 wounds (11 attacks) on a 2+ character with a 5++.
1.01 wounds (11 attacks) on a 2+ character with a 4++.
1.01 wounds (11 attacks) on a 2+ character with a 3++.

So in my opinion power axes are not a great choice. Though it does perform better the longer the fight goes on.

Mushkilla idk where you got your math here, but its not right.

All attacks are against 2+ save, 4++ Iron Halo

Archon w/ Venom blade = .46 wounds, .553 on the charge.
Archon w/ Agoniser= .276 wounds, .332 on the charge.
Archon w/ Huskblade= .184 wounds, .221 on the charge.
Archon w/ Power Axe= .833 wounds, 1 on the charge.

The Power Axe is our best solution to go through termie armor, and is the best all comers weapon we have. Also only being 10 points more than a venomblade, I see no downfall at all (other than the I1 ofc)

I just pasted this from another topic where I explained my reasoning.

Mushkilla wrote:

Lord Clazaryn wrote:

I'm not really sure how you get that result with the venom blade. When I do it I get 0.56 wounds with the blade with a 2+ save. So the power axe may still be a bit awful but it's not infitely worse than the venom blade.

Btw, my calculations with the VB for a charging archon.
6*2/3=4 4*5/6=3.33 3.33*1/6=0.556.

I probably wasn't clear enough. I'll try explaining it again. In order to use your axe you have to survive a round of your enemies attacks. With the venom blade you strike first so you don't have to survive a round of attacks to use it.

Attack = A , Defence = D

Venom blade: ADA
Power axe: DA

With the venom blade you only need to survive one round of attacks in order to attack twice, on the other hand with the axe you need to survive two rounds of attacks in order to attack twice. Therefore for the same amount of risk the venom blade is more effective, as you get two rounds (and therefore 11 attacks, hence the difference between our calculations). Of course this pans out the longer the combat, in a 4 round combat it would be:

ADADADA
DADADA

So 4 rounds of attacks compared to 3 rounds of attack (the axe gaining the advantage as the fight draws on).

Does that make more sense?