2k Wych Cult List

So awhile ago I came up with the idea of trying to bring back a pure cult list. Basically after the whole Harliestar thing, Im looking for a fresh challenge. This is what Ive mulled over for quite some time.

HQ:
Succubus w/ Power Lance, Blast Pistol, Haywire

Elites:
9 Bloodbrides w/ Haywire, 3 Guantlets; Syren w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher in Raider w/ Nightshields

Troops:
5 Wyches w/ Haywire in Venom w/ Extra Cannon, Nightshields
5 Wyches w/ Haywire in Venom w/ Extra Cannon, Nightshields
5 Wyches w/ Haywire in Venom w/ Extra Cannon, Nightshields
5 Wyches w/ Haywire in Venom w/ Extra Cannon, Nightshields
5 Wyches w/ Haywire in Venom w/ Extra Cannon, Nightshields

Fast Attack:
6 Reavers w/ 2 Heat Lance, Arena Champ w/ Power Lance
6 Reavers w/ 2 Heat Lance, Arena Champ w/ Power Lance

Heavy Support:
Ravager w/ Nightshields
Ravager w/ Nightshields
Ravager w/ Nightshields

Allies:
Farseer w/ Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Eldritch Storm, Singing Spear
3 Guardian Jetbikes

Its really basic. Succubus goes with Bloodbrides and makes my counterattack unit, and their target gets doomed by the Farseer. Ravagers and Wyches are for AT, and the venoms are for AI. Reavers are my jack of all trades unit, and are really there to bail out the bloodbrides should I need the extra combat push. Also the reason I picked Eldritch Storm is to give my Farseer some AT ability other than a spear (which I feel I lack) as well as some nice horde control ability.

I try this out tomorrow. Hopefully my wyches dont go down in a blaze of firey raider goodness

I like it! I am wondering at the nightshields on the venoms though. If you are close enough to assault with the wyches then you're close enough so that the nightshields wont really do anything.

Don't forget to throw a HWG if within 8" - I always forget, and it helps chip away at the HP's...

the reason for NS on the venoms is to be annoying for those 36" and less guns, as well as keeping me safe if I indeed have to move up and either throw haywires or assault a tank.

How has the Succubus w/ power lance worked out for u?

Beautiful, simple, straight forward.

I would love to see a battle report of a game with that list. I love it but I wonder if your troops can survive long enough to win an objectives game.

I understand the points aren't really there for them, but beyond that, what was your reasoning in running the venom-mounted wyches without their signature weapons or a hekatrix with any given load out? Strength in numbers?

I really think the Eldar allies are just points thrown away for not much accomplishment. The Bloodbrides aren't reliant on Doom and you're paying a whole lot of points just for that. If you want the Farseer for the Runes of Warding, I would keep it cheap.

Oh and I'm going to go ahead and say it: Eldritch Storm is terrible. It isn't going to do much damage to anything. I really hope they make it powerful in the next Eldar codex. Some of the most powerful psykers in the the galaxy, and all they're capable of is S3 AP-? Awful.

So I finally got a game in with this list. And I must say I wasnt impressed. That being said, my key elements that I wanted to try out (the reavers and bloodbrides) either never saw combat, or failed to do anything spetacular do to poor rolling (5 man reaver squad and the champ from the 2nd squad failed to kill 5 marines in combat... I mean come on!!!) And btw... I rolled 1 on the drug chart... which I always roll when I play wyches...

I played against a nicely balanced foot SW list with Termie WG leading the GH squads. We rolled relic, and thanks to my mobility I was able to win 3-2 with the GJB grabbing and holding the relic for the win.

As for comments about the list... the reavers failed me miserably... Also being the only thing not nightshielded means they drew alot of fire from bolters and plas, which I dont know is a good thing or a bad thing. Im thinking of actually dropping the lances for some better bladevane things, but I havent decided yet to give up on the list and will try it again before I make changes.

The bloodbrides did nothing, and by that I really mean did nothing. I rolled the outflank WL trait and decided that it would be better to use it than get 12 missles down the throat until it died (as it has a ton of points tied up into it) But they decided not to come in till T3, and on a side where nothing was set up. The most they did was overwatch a WG termie and 1 Grey Hunter after a failed charged 5" away into them the turn before. I want to actually see the unit in combat, so I guess another game is in order...

@callofdoobie: well the power lance on the reavers did poorly, but that was just bad rolling on my part. I think on the succubus it would be better as she hits on 3s, but again I didnt get to use it.

@Daemon: I was actually supprised at how many troops of mine still lived by the end of the match. While I didnt face many long range shots, the split fire could of easily put me at a disavantage early. What saved me the most was Nightshields though, as it kept his bolters from me for 2 turns more as I could dance out of the range of rapid fire with ease.

@Bearded Dan: The reason for the 5 man wych squads is for the haywires and the venom. You cant deny that wyches against MEQ is a tough battle, and explosions being S4 now mean that putting a ton of points in wyches is sucicide. 5 man wyches are a nice balance to the points cost to output ratio. They still pack a wallop against tanks for their points value, but arent too costly that when they go down, you feel the pain of "why did I bring them!!!!"

@Anggul it was actually the eldar allies that won me the game GJB are cheap and fast scorers, and the farseer popped a rune priest with RoW. Infact RoW is so good I would almost never leave home without it. As for doom it proved very useful when combined with the venoms and the bladevanes, but I didnt try it with the bloodbrides yet (although being S3 base, I think they still need it). As for eldritch storm, playing harliestar made me apreciate it as a viable light AT subsitute. Being able to hit 2+ tanks and spin them around makes it easier for rear armor shots, which help the "lance curse" drasticly. It doesnt do much by itself, but combined with doom and other toys, I find it serves it purpose well (oh, and I cant wait to drop it into a 30+ squad of cultists ) I will admit though it is abit underwhelming.

its always the way mate, first game with new stuff always seems to be depressing! nothing works, dice fail, or it gets blown up on 1st turn. keep at it, you'll get them well blooded in the next few :-)

What do you mean by Power Lance? Are you referring to the standard 10 / 15pts power weapon that they can get? Sorry. Rather new to the army haha.

@Yahmes yes. As per 6th ed if you pick just a "power weapon" you may choose one of 4 options. A sword (Strength User, AP3) a Maul (Strength +2, AP4) an Axe (Strength +1, AP2 Init I) or a Lance (Strength +1 AP3 on the charge, Strength User AP4 afterwards) I picked the lance because of it making her S4 on the charge (which I should get) and being able to work with the strength drug and furious charge.

Overall I think Im pretty much done with this army. I have played 5 games with them, and overall found them pretty much lacking. It just feels like I should get more for my points cost with the bloodbrides than I currently am, and my problem with the reavers is they arent a vehicle. Everything with nightshields means that I can stay out of the range of rapid fire weapons, yet the reavers dont have this protection. Ive found that they suck down a ton of fire. I might still play with them from time to time, as they are a fun unit, but I have no desire for them in a competitive list, yet that is.

Well, the list was certainly thought provoking for me. I seriously want to try running multiple small units of wyches with haywires in venoms. I knew it could be done, I just wasn't ever sure that it should be done. Do you think that style of unit is something you will continue to do?

I really think 9 strong bloodbride unit is a bad choice. Same points thrown into big beastmasters unit is a much better investment. Baron as HQ.

Bloodbrides should bring more venoms and special weapons atacks on the table. All those Wych weapons are just garbage for premium cost.

Also kinda surprising you want 6 Reavers to beat 5 marines. Do you expect 6 Wyches to beat 5 marines? Even with a power lance its a gamble.

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Overall I think Im pretty much done with this army

I think that army needs adjustment and thought over. As it is - no wonder you only pleased with Troops Choice and Ravagers, thats the only decent things here.

Im also in no Eldar allies camp, we never needed Psychis defense and Doom - why pay for it now? Isnt more investment in killing stuff more worthwile? Best psyker defense is a dead psyker if you ask me.

I would throw away them, make Reavers larger and exchange Bloodbrides and Succubi for Baron with Beastmasters, really large unit to draw alot of fire. Thats a nice staple and control unit for venoms.

Next option would be to upgrade each wych unit with HEkatrix with venom blade and take one more troops venom. Reason is simple, Hekatrix with venom blade is still a threat after venom explosion, while simple girls are clearly not.

Azdrubael wrote:

I really think 9 strong bloodbride unit is a bad choice. Same points thrown into big beastmasters unit is a much better investment. Baron as HQ.

Agreed, but the point was to try and run a full wych cult list. Even though beastmasters fit into the theme, baron does not. Also bloodbrides are a must thematic style, but I did find them lacking

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Also kinda surprising you want 6 Reavers to beat 5 marines. Do you expect 6 Wyches to beat 5 marines? Even with a power lance its a gamble.

Why do you say that??? consider 6 HoW hits is .665 wounds, add in 2 power lances coming out with 2 wounds, then 4 reavers coming out with another .665 wounds = 3.33 marines dead. The 5 marines with counterattack going off only hit back 1.668 wounds, and that is with no one dying at all because the reavers hit first. The Reavers statistically should of shredded them, yet my poor rolling and his average rolling worked against them

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Im also in no Eldar allies camp, we never needed Psychis defense and Doom - why pay for it now? Isnt more investment in killing stuff more worthwile? Best psyker defense is a dead psyker if you ask me.

And the RoW farseer almost completely turns that psyker into an afterthought. Everytime he rolls to do a power, he has a high chance of perils and dying from it. I have gotten so many warlord kills from opponents chancing it one too many times. for almost no points at all you add in the ability to completely shut down enemy psykers, powerful buffs for your own army in the form of doom and divination, and scoring jetbikes. Im sorry, but I see nothing but bonuses for the points value.

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Next option would be to upgrade each wych unit with HEkatrix with venom blade and take one more troops venom. Reason is simple, Hekatrix with venom blade is still a threat after venom explosion, while simple girls are clearly not.

I dont see the bonus of doing that at all. at 5 man they dont have enough combat res to do anything in combat. Lets replicate the reaver battle against the 5 GH that you said they had no chance of winning, and lets see if the wyches fair better. Ok, so we have 2 hekatrix's w/ venom blade doing 1.109 wounds, and then the 5 wyches (without drugs, but I did the reavers without drugs as well) equal out to ..665 wounds = 1.774 wounds. For completionist sake attacks back on the wyches equals 1.66 wounds back (FNP taken into account on both instances because my reavers had it, and its only fair to give it to the wyches)

So in conclusion they both fair about the same in combat statistcally against 5 GH, but the reavers clearly are the better damage output due to HoW and the ability for the power lance ot go through the GH armor. Sure... they are more expensive, but I dont see the point of giving my 5 man wych squads a close combat upgrade if they arent intended to get them into combat.

Bearded Dan wrote:

Well, the list was certainly thought provoking for me. I seriously want to try running multiple small units of wyches with haywires in venoms. I knew it could be done, I just wasn't ever sure that it should be done. Do you think that style of unit is something you will continue to do?

I actually liked the 5 man wych squads w/ haywires in venom. Their AT is amazing, and is a nice breakup from the standard 5 man warrior w/ blaster (same points too) Personally from now on I will be including atleast 1~3 squad of them in my competitive lists, as I was really pleased overall with them. I would say give them a try, and see what you think. I find their effectiveness against wrecking AV12 is far supperior than dark lances, and adding in their option to throw 1 haywire to finish off tanks that have HPs taken off by dark lances and allowing your lances to focus on surviving full HP tanks is worth the loss of 1 or 2 blasters

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Why do you say that??? consider 6 HoW hits is .665 wounds, add in 2 power lances coming out with 2 wounds, then 4 reavers coming out with another .665 wounds = 3.33 marines dead.

Because mathematical expected value is not be all of mathhammer. That is a thing that many players simply dont want to understand, you dont roll average most of the time, and you have to account to it when building rosters and when choosing targets.

If you fail doing enough damage at assault you instantly have chance to drop below fighting strenght. 1-2 losses and its done. Same about shooting. So you actually rely on charge, confident that it will inflict mathematical average. It doesnt of coarse, this is dice after all.

Power Lance enhance this even further. That is something to think about.
Space Marines can afford that thinking. They have 3+. Guess who write all the theory in the web, hey?

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Im sorry, but I see nothing but bonuses for the points value.

Yeah, and thats 200+ points of something that can acutally kill stuff, instead of being a bonus.

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baron does not

Well, whats the problem, slap Succubi on skyboard, convert a fancy model. Problem solved.

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Also bloodbrides are a must thematic style,

They are not bad actually, if only to remember that their worth is Syren and Venom they bring. 135 points for all the pleasure. Agoniser + Second Canon. Thats bloodbrides. Second wave going to where battle is stalled.

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I dont see the bonus of doing that at all. at 5 man they dont have enough combat res to do anything in combat

Oh, but you miss all the point. Venoms with Wyches assault in one group, alive Hekatrix means you have alive grenade carrier. If a venom got shot down (which will be), Hekatrix can roll ensuing LD checks ok enough cause she is character, while wyches will lose 3 and run away or be pinned.

They dont have to be able to do something at 5 strenght but when they are moving in group of 15 - 20 - 25 it is better to have supporting Hekatrix then a running away or pinned 2 wyches. Venoms will be shot down and we have to account for it.

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They are not bad actually, if only to remember that their worth is Syren and Venom they bring. 135 points for all the pleasure. Agoniser + Second Canon. Thats bloodbrides. Second wave going to where battle is stalled.

Sooo use them as a crowbar to get the tarpits "un-stuck"?

Azdrubael wrote:

Because mathematical expected value is not be all of mathhammer. That is a thing that many players simply dont want to understand, you dont roll average most of the time, and you have to account to it when building rosters and when choosing targets.

If you fail doing enough damage at assault you instantly have chance to drop below fighting strenght. 1-2 losses and its done. Same about shooting. So you actually rely on charge, confident that it will inflict mathematical average. It doesnt of coarse, this is dice after all.

Power Lance enhance this even further. That is something to think about.
Space Marines can afford that thinking. They have 3+. Guess who write all the theory in the web, hey?

and venomblades dont enhance the spread of possible damage output??? infact its range is far greater due to allowing a 3rd variable to be added to the equation called armor saves. This game is all about mathmatical averages, even if it doesnt look like it. Everytime you roll a dice, you have around a 16% chance of getting a single number. Over a number of dice rolls, those numbers slowly average out. Its basic math, and for all those that believer there is something else to this game (i.e luck, faith, vodoo magic) then that is to them, but everything is statstical. I dont expect anything from them, but its a gamble I take. I had the math on my side, sadly the dice disagreed with me. 1 incedent isnt a viable reason to dismiss a unit.

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Yeah, and thats 200+ points of something that can acutally kill stuff, instead of being a bonus.

Oh, and that 200+ point unit also has AT, and great AI in the form of bladevanes. Oh, and its shooting is quite decent as well... The sum of the parts of the unit makes it good. The point of the reavers was to bladevane unit they got either A: a juicy tank to heat lance, or B: a juicy weak target ot charge. Math shows those Reavers had the upper hand by a fair margin. Yet sometimes dice dont roll as you expect, and they failed. The same could happen to the wyches. I could charge 20 wyches into those 5 GH, and not do a single wound. It happens, and the idea is to be prepared for that to happen.

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Oh, but you miss all the point. Venoms with Wyches assault in one group, alive Hekatrix means you have alive grenade carrier. If a venom got shot down (which will be), Hekatrix can roll ensuing LD checks ok enough cause she is character, while wyches will lose 3 and run away or be pinned.

They dont have to be able to do something at 5 strenght but when they are moving in group of 15 - 20 - 25 it is better to have supporting Hekatrix then a running away or pinned 2 wyches. Venoms will be shot down and we have to account for it.

The point of the wyches in my list isnt to be in assault though. Their job is for AT, while the venom handles the AI. Haywires are so amazing now, why would I want to waste them by throwing them into something my venoms could easily chew through? Also if you lose combat you must pass a leadership test for each squad, not just one test. Hence even if there is just 1 hekatrix alive, it wont help the other 5 squads as they run away due to the lower leadership. Oh... and lets not add that if you throw all 6 of your troop choices into one assault... then you deserve to lose the game as your ONLY SCORERS are stuck in a combat. Oh, and if they win, then they consalidate just waiting to be shot up

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Oh, and that 200+ point unit also has AT

I was speaking of Farseer and his Jetbikes. Reavers are great.

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Over a number of dice rolls, those numbers slowly average out.

It averages up over more then one game. Which means that in one game you shoot with Ravager and for first 2 turns you miss all shots and next game you hit with all your shots, it averages in certain average percent of hit. But when one player call it crap dice the other prepare accordingly for both outcomes of shot. First wins 1 of 2 games, the other 2 of 2. All shots was shot at average rate during those 2 games. That is no magic or vodoo, thats plain rationality.

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Oh... and lets not add that if you throw all 6 of your troop choices into one assault... then you deserve to lose the game as your ONLY SCORERS are stuck in a combat

So what? First Blood, Linebreaker, Warlord, contest and hold in CC everything else. You're living to much in your venom spam way, you change army but play the same venom spam. You want challenge, you need to change approach.

You got fancy new Haywires in venoms and Bloodbrides with Doom and expect it to win? Thats the same venom spam, only without Blasterborns and with gimped Bloodbrides unit.

You want Wych Cult, i fear you have to start it from scratch or stick with the old way.
Thats the challenge and thats interesting. Thats is what you wanted?

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The point of the wyches in my list isnt to be in assault though. Their job is for AT, while the venom handles the AI. Haywires are so amazing now, why would I want to waste them by throwing them into something my venoms could easily chew through?

Mate, are you trying to illuminate me? I know the basics well enough, im in this boat from the day the codex was released. You dont always have that many AV targets now. To use Haywire. And 5 venoms wont cut it with normal players. Drop-pods and flyers and stuff. Good list, however can be flexible. And use different tactics with different opponents.

Naturally you want to use Venoms as shooting power, but its stupid not to assault with Wyches. You only meet lists with lot of vehicles?

And besides, you defend the list you yourself say is hopeless? You need to make adjustments. You know that.
I just didnt wanted you surrender on a good idea ).
Hope i will help you somehow to let of your enemies cry in pain, eventually ))

Azdrubael wrote:

I was speaking of Farseer and his Jetbikes. Reavers are great.

Im sorry you feel that esencially a 6 wound T4 3+w/ 4++ coversave/Invul super fast scoring unit that shuts down or outright kills enemy psykers without doing anything and boosts either your wounding potential or hitting potential with re-rolls to either hit or to wound for around 200pts isnt worth it. That is your own oppinion. I find it works wonderfully with the synergy that our army needs to compete

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So what? First Blood, Linebreaker, Warlord, contest and hold in CC everything else. You're living to much in your venom spam way, you change army but play the same venom spam. You want challenge, you need to change approach.

Ok, I MIGHT get 3 points... but guess what, most objectives are worth multiple points anyway... So 3 points versus say... 5 for just holding two objectives??? is that a fair trade??? Plus who can assault T1??? and considering your proposed 5 man wych squads are just as weak in combat as mine (although alittle better) and cost 15 more points a piece per squad.

[/quote]You got fancy new Haywires in venoms and Bloodbrides with Doom and expect it to win? Thats the same venom spam, only without Blasterborns and with gimped Bloodbrides unit.

You want Wych Cult, i fear you have to start it from scratch or stick with the old way.
Thats the challenge and thats interesting. Thats is what you wanted? [/quote]

Actually I didnt lose with this list once, my problem with it it is too random. It requires you to get a good drug roll, and then it requires you to get that expensive bloodbride unit into combat to make its points back. Its just too reliant to be very competitive. A competitive list has redunancy... And that is what this list lacks.

Also yes, I ran wyches for AT and venoms for AI, its duality. And why would I run wyches for assault when they are clearly inferior to a venom? Im sorry but you cant even count it as a close contest like a venom and dissie raider. Wyches in combat are made to tarpit, not to deal damage. Yet you want me to run them in close combat??? yah... I rather go with what works well, not something that again requires a good drug roll and some hot dice to actually work.

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And besides, you defend the list you yourself say is hopeless? You need to make adjustments. You know that.
I just didnt wanted you surrender on a good idea ).
Hope i will help you somehow to let of your enemies cry in pain, eventually ))

Im not defending the list one bit, Im defending the playstyle. The point is every unit has its own dedicated purpose in the list. Wyches are either A: AT through Haywires, or B: Tarpit. Whats the purpose of 10 man wych squads if I want them just for AT? Extra points for something that isnt needed? Sure running 10 man wych squads is a different playstyle, but its also not as competitive. Its a waste of points and when counter-assault can be done better by beasts or incubi, which you already pointed out.

The point of the list was to try out bloodbrides and was to only use wyches and reavers, to which I succeeded. Sadly I dont feel that it is competitive, and that is why I am ditching it, not because it itself isnt effective.

Some thoughts come to mind looking at this list. First, some larger wych squads are needed. I'm not saying take all 10 man squads, but a 50/50 mix might help. Second, I hate failing morale checks. I always put Hekatrix in a squad over 5 man. Third, I know you had a theme going, but the Duke would benefit this list greatly. Forth, I am intrigued by the Power Lances. Mathhammer seems to favor Venom Blades. I can see the Alpha Strike draw though. Please expound on the Power Lance use.

how does mathhammer favor venom blades??? take a look at the two against your basic targets, MEQ and GEQ.

MEQ- Hekatrix w/ lance= 1 wound (4*.5*.5)
MEQ- Hekatrix w/ venom blade= .554 wounds (4*.5*.833*.333)
GEQ- Hekatrix w/ lance= 1.779 wounds (4*.667*.667)
GEQ- Hekatrix w/ venom blade= 1.729 wounds [4*.667*.833+ (.446*.833) *.667]

MEQ- Succubus w/ lance= 2.001 wounds (6*.667*.5)
MEQ- Succubus w/ venom blade= 1.110 wounds (6*.667*.833*.333)
GEQ- Succubus w/ lance= 2.669 wounds (6*.667*.667)
GEQ Succubus w/ venom balde= 2.594 wounds [6*.667*.833+(.669*.833) *.667]

Lance out-preforms the venom blade every time (even though they come marginally close against GEQ) and the lance has a greater bonus from the re-roll drug (as its not something the weapon can already do) +1 strength drug, or Furious Charge. Its one weakness is its ineffective after the charge, but if you are going for raw damage output, its the lance all the way

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Its one weakness is its ineffective after the charge, but if you are going for raw damage output, its the lance all the way

And here we back on the same argument, you roll badly at the turn of assault, what then? Say goodbye to combat?Venom blade provide more reliability and this is like close combat redundancy. I think better way to provide good assault is simply to support it with shooting, thats it. There are no more Fearless wounds, its killiness thats matter now, not initial damage.

I think Power Lance is a weapon for say, Succubi as an offhand for Venom Blade.

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Im sorry you feel that esencially a 6 wound T4 3+w/ 4++ coversave/Invul super fast scoring unit that shuts down or outright kills enemy psykers without doing anything and boosts either your wounding potential or hitting potential with re-rolls to either hit or to wound for around 200pts isnt worth it.

If its taking away from Lances, Splinter Shots and Wounds of the main units, then yes, they dont worth it. Im downright scared of anything that takes me away from maximum killiness, and we wont be durable army anyway. My opinion - our fragility and lack of psychic defense should be embraced, not try to gap holes.

6 T4 3+ is also not something that is terribly durable.

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Ok, I MIGHT get 3 points... but guess what, most objectives are worth multiple points anyway... So 3 points versus say... 5 for just holding two objectives??? is that a fair trade??? Plus who can assault T1???

If enemy has no units left to hold points, it doesnt matter. If you assault and kill enemy unit that was holding point you will also have it.

And why do we need T1 assault? To kill all your venoms? Or in a vane hope that Wyches will kill everything? Its quite clear that they will not.
Beastmasters must get into the fray early, Wyches can wait and shoot, assaulting early only if there are multiple AV targets.

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And why would I run wyches for assault when they are clearly inferior to a venom?

Wyches themself are a dual threat. With a solid infantry list you need both Venoms and Wyches for AI. Why compare when they support each other.

Wych cult army is both shooting and assault army, not just assault army. But the option for assault is there, and one can make it cheap enough and effective enough, with enough shooting support. Thats what im essentially trying to say.

Azdrubael wrote:

And here we back on the same argument, you roll badly at the turn of assault, what then? Say goodbye to combat?Venom blade provide more reliability and this is like close combat redundancy. I think better way to provide good assault is simply to support it with shooting, thats it. There are no more Fearless wounds, its killiness thats matter now, not initial damage.

I think Power Lance is a weapon for say, Succubi as an offhand for Venom Blade.

But what happens if you roll terrible to hit? or roll a yatzee of ones to wound? or what if you do all 6 wounds with the succubi, but the opponent makes all his armor saves? when you think what ifs in this game, then you get into a whole crazy set of possibilities. You cant worry about the what ifs, and just use what is best point per point damage percentage. Overall the Lance is superior. Although I would admit the venomblade makes a decent offhand weapon for a succubi if you have the points around.

Also another boon of having a doomseer flying around, his job is to make sure I dont roll bad to wound (or to hit if I get re-roll to wound drug)

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If its taking away from Lances, Splinter Shots and Wounds of the main units, then yes, they dont worth it. Im downright scared of anything that takes me away from maximum killiness, and we wont be durable army anyway. My opinion - our fragility and lack of psychic defense should be embraced, not try to gap holes.

This just has to be a difference in opinions. I dont see our lack of psychic defense as a weakness, but for a cheap scoring durable fast unit that is a force multiplier by causing re-rolls to hit or wound for cheap... Im sorry you dont like it. You should try it out for yourself and then make a decision.

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6 T4 3+ is also not something that is terribly durable.

Marines seem to do just fine with combat squads sitting on objectives...

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If enemy has no units left to hold points, it doesnt matter. If you assault and kill enemy unit that was holding point you will also have it.

But we all know wyches dont kill in combat. Their job is to tarpit. Take Wyches on the charge (without a drug) against MEQ, a 10 man squad w/ venom blade (what everyone seems to run today) only kills 2.051 Marines. After those 2 deaths, he 8 marines hit back with 1.667 wyches. So lets see... 10 man marines NOT charging almost beat 10 wyches CHARGING. So if the dice go even alittle bit the marines way, he would win combat.

Oh, but you said you would charge with two units??? well then you run a high risk of blowing out the unit, which then leaves your two T3 6+ wyches sitting out in the open... waiting to get boltered to death...

And if your running beasts into a unit anyway, what is the purpose of the wyches??? Even an average unit of beasts CLEARlY topple the same marine squad by itself (3 BM w/ 5 Kymerea and 4 Razorwings do 4.66 wounds alone, meaning that next turn they will chew their way out of combat and allow them to charge something else)

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Wyches themself are a dual threat. With a solid infantry list you need both Venoms and Wyches for AI. Why compare when they support each other.

Wych cult army is both shooting and assault army, not just assault army. But the option for assault is there, and one can make it cheap enough and effective enough, with enough shooting support. Thats what im essentially trying to say.

I understand wyches can be assault, and I did charge them into things late game, when I knew they could win and had to pull people off of objectives. The problem is there is no reason to waste points by making wyches semi-decent in assault. They dont kill, their job was never to kill. 90pts is something that easily could be used elsewhere. Thats 9 Nightshields!!! Its the same arugement as "I give my warriors a sybarite and power weapon because they "might" get into assault"

Also the point of this experiment wasnt to make a "fuffy/fun" wych cult, but was to make a competitive list that only stipulation was it had to be all wyches. I actually think I made a fine list, and think it would do well in most enviroments. Sure having wyches kitted out of assualt would make it fluffier, but it would hurt the competitive edge of the list.