need help beating Death Company Chaos with my Dark Eldar

I'm playing a couple of guys, and one of my friends in particular is very experience and has a list that just smashes people.

We play at 1850 and I should note that I don't want to take allies. I'm not interested in any of that stuff.
I should also note that I've got a ton of units and I'm considering buying more so I'm looking for the best build to beat these armies (that can hopefully stand up in general against other builds.)

Here's his list (approximately)

Hellbrute with plasma cannon
Land Raider with Chaos Lord and 7 plague marines
3 squads of 7 plague marines (each has a couple plasma)
2 squads of 3 obliterators
aegis defense line (he changes the guns on it depending what hes up against)

that seems to be all I remember... there may be another squad of plague marines or something.
my other friend also plays chaos (albeit not quite as well) and he runs more beserkers/dreadnoughts etc.

My list today was basically this ---

archon with huskblade, soul trap, shadow field
haemonculus with liquifier, power weapon
8 wytches - one hekatrix, one wytch with gauntlets

that whole squad is on a raider

i ran three raiders each with 10 warriors.
1 warrior with splinter cannon in each squad, the rest were vanilla
raiders have dark lances, night fields and flickerfields

2 venoms each with 5 incubi
each with a klaivex, onslaught, demiklaive

1 ravager with dark lances and flicker/night
2 vanilla razorwings




we built the list together and he genuinely tries to help me get better. he said that even if we played each others lists, he would have expected the dark eldar to lose and that it wasnt my inexperience that got me crushed. im sure that has something to do with it, but what would you all suggest to help beat his list into the ground? I think id do much better against anything with armour of 5 and none of that feel no pain nonsense haha.

i bought the army used and its huge. ive got probably 100 warriors, 30 wytches, some scourges, tons of beasts (all of them) 10 reaver bikes.

i dont have wracks or grotesques or mandrakes. i dont particularly like any of them. same goes with hellions and scourges. if any of those units were key i could be persuaded... but i havent seen much good news on them...


HELP!

I'm not too much into tailoring lists (and, frankly, your friend changing his Aegis weapon based on what he's facing already curls my toes and makes me want to see him crushed for his list tailoring)

That all said, this list is not a scary list for DE.
Frankly, even your current list looks like it could do a decent whirl at tromping his list, but it could probably be tightened up.

What I'm going to do first off is go over his list and just sort of generally speak about DE options to dismantle it.
Then I'll go over your list and talk about general ways to make it better versus all lists.
Hopefully betwixt and between we'll educate you into stomping a bloody hole in those wimpy Chaos feebs.

Raoiley wrote:

Hellbrute with plasma cannon
Land Raider with Chaos Lord and 7 plague marines
3 squads of 7 plague marines (each has a couple plasma)
2 squads of 3 obliterators
aegis defense line (he changes the guns on it depending what hes up against)

Okay, let's just run this down by the numbers;

Hellbrute - a suboptimal choice for wrecking DE. The easy solution is to toss a couple of HWG (Haywire Grenade) packing Wyches at it and call it a day. A handfull of Dark Lances could do the job fairly well also. I would consider this sucker to be, overall, a rather minor threat in the list.

Lord in Land Raider w. Plaguers - The core of the list, and something I would *love* to see across the table from me. The plot would be to pop Dark Lance shots into the LR until it is a smoking ruin, and allow the Plaugers to try walking after you. Consider wrecking the Landraider to be a priority threat, killing the walking Plaugers afterwards is a tertiary threat.

Walking Plaguers w. Plasma These are an okay threat. Basically speaking your job would be to plink away at them with long range shooting or assault them down. They'll be so slow compared to you that they are a tertiary threat because they are unlikely to be able to do a lot of damage to you in a remotely efficient way.

Squads of Oblits - a primary threat for a meched up DE such as yourself. Now, there's a *major* question here - do they have a Mark of Nurgle? If they do not, they will be Toughness 4, if they do then they are toughness 5 w. FNP. As i said, *big* difference If they lack the MoN then the answer to them is usually massed dark lance fire, as each successful wound is a totally dead Obliterator. Also, assault by Incubi or a lord w. Huskblade will equate to very dead Oblits. If they have the MoN you may still need to assault them, just with more force than before, and also streams of poison firepower become more viable as you'll really just need to try to torrent them down.

Aegis line - aka 'I'm a wussy gunline player and am not afraid to admit it' The Aegis line is, for th emost part, meaningless to you. The, likely, quad-gun he will take with it is a big issue though. However, here's a magical clue - your splinter weaponry will kill a quad gun just as fast as it can kill two regular Marines. ...splinter weaponry is good at killing two regular marines. I would shoot ou tthe gun, and then you can ignore the wimps hiding behind the shield unless they're on an objective or are Oblits or something. If Oblits are hiding back here - I recommend assault to deal with them.

Shoot the hell out of that gun though, it can kill your ships really quickly.

Raoiley wrote:

archon with huskblade, soul trap, shadow field
haemonculus with liquifier, power weapon
8 wytches - one hekatrix, one wytch with gauntlets

that whole squad is on a raider

I am neutral towards this squad in a general sense, but mostly because of the other things your army has. Basically that Archon is an elite assault piece...and Wyches are no longer elite assault pieces. Also, the Archon who has a shadowfield really doesn't get much from having FNP - he is usually worried about instant death, and FNP is useless for that. Also, there is basically no point to that Hekatrix...why are you even paying for that unit with the Archon here? The only reason to take a Hekatrix is as a leadership boost (Archon covers that here) or to take a special weapon on her (and you haven't) :: You're just wasting points - either get her a venom blade or something, or just drop her from the squad.

Frankly, if it were me, the Archon would get a PGL and would be riding around with Incubi, not Wyches. Incubi+PGL+Archon = bad news for pretty much any other unit in the game.

Wyches are, nowadays, probably sadly better served as HWG delivery units and minor tarpit annoyances.

Raoiley wrote:

i ran three raiders each with 10 warriors.
1 warrior with splinter cannon in each squad, the rest were vanilla
raiders have dark lances, night fields and flickerfields

I really dislike this build right now. I used to love Gunboats in the old Dex, and even with the new Dex they had their place...but now that we're hit in assault on 3+? Not so much - because the entire point of Gunboats is they need to get in close, and when they're in close they are susceptible to assault, and then they will die.

I personally think the Venom is still the best way to get a lot of poison shooting on the board.

If you were to insist on this as a build I would probably drop the FFs (just move for the cover save, and the FFs can't help you in assault worth a fig now anyway) and would also be looking to get Blasters on the Warriors - Blasters aggressively will increase the ability of your unit to inflict pain on tough and well armored enemies, and also to blast apart vehicles.

Raoiley wrote:

2 venoms each with 5 incubi
each with a klaivex, onslaught, demiklaive

Onslaught on a unit of 5?
Meh and double meh. I think you could spend those points better elsewhere.
As mentioned - I would probably make one large Incubi squad to help your Archon, adn would pack Wyches or Warriors into these - I would choose Warriors, honestly, as your Venoms should be hanging back and pumping out poison shots from range.

Raoiley wrote:

1 ravager with dark lances and flicker/night
2 vanilla razorwings

I like this.
I'm actually amazed that you aren't able to saw a large hole in his infantry with the two Razorwings - I would routinely eat apart squads of Blood Angel assault Marines with FNP with mine. Another important question is if you're taking lances or dissies on the Razorwings - I would advocate dissies in the current play environment. Also, make sure you're dumping missiles aggressively with the Razorwings - you don't get bonus awards for dying with backup missiles on those babies, so burn them asap. That's another good reason to take Dissies, it should help keep you sane and not shooting at vehicles, but instead raining horrible missile death on top of infantry blobs.

Of the stuff you're not fielding, the only one that really leaps out to me is the lack of running Beastmasters (probably with Baron Sathypants) Let me just run down what a very moderately priced unit can do;

Baron Sathypants
3 Beastmasters
5 Khymarae
4 Razorwing Flocks

Total Cost: 261 (compare that to your current Wych/Raider/Haem unit)
30 wounds.
55(!) attacks on the charge
Initiative of 5...or better...on the entire unit.
Also they have Rend, Hit and Run, and a half a dozen other special abilities. They move fast, hit hard, and are difficult to kill off in either assault or shooting, and they can walk away from assaults that they don't want to stay in so you can still shoot units they were fighting.

That's about the best argument I have for building some Hellions, so they 'count as' Beastmasters. Though I'll admit I've seen some very good Hellion based armies, but I don't think you need to go that route to win with DE if you don't want to.

Hope some of this rambling helps.
Regards,
Thor..

that helps a ton.
im thinking of ditching the incubi and the assault path...

id like to add some trueborn and really spam splinter fire.
i think ill replace the archon with a duke for some of that.

i also wouldnt mind some reaver caltrop attacks

im really glad you mentioned that beast unit. I'm going to run that exactly. i've ordered the bits for the razorwings and I think they'll be nasty once I get them running.

i like the idea of running disintegrators on the flyers...
do you think the void ravens are worth it for the extra toughness?
my problem was survivability.. they were shooting at the aegis turret, 6 oblits and like 10 plague marines.

they killed very little... maybe dropped a few wounds before they got taken out. it hurt

had to register to say thanks for the great write up!

I will definitely be rereading this in the future as i plan my up and coming DE army!

OK, I'm gonna give my typical 1850 list: This is just my normal game list; and strangely, tourney list. It hits hard in shooting and has a decent close combat presence too.

Archon with Venom Blade, Shadow Field, Combat Drugs, Ghostplate Armor

Haemonculus with venom blade, liquifier gun.
Haemonculus with venom blade, liquifier gun.

10 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters, 6 Shard Carbines
-- Raider with flickerfield and nightshield.

10 Warriors with Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Sybarite with venom blade
-- Raider with flickerfield and splinter racks

5 Warriors with Blaster
-- Venom with Splintercannon

5 Warriors with Blaster
-- Venom with Splintercannon

9 Wyches with Hydragauntlets, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix with venomblade,
-- Raider with FLickerfield

8 Wyches with Hydragauntlets, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix with venomblade,
-- Raider with FLickerfield

3 Reavers with cluster caltrops

Ravager with 3 Dark Lances and Night shields, flickerfields

Ravager with 3 Disintegrators and Night shields, flickerfields

Razorwing (stock) with flickerfields

Comes in right under 1850 or so, so you have some playing around points for things if you want.

LOTS of shooting, and remember that artillery (quadguns or icarus lascannons) are T7... poison 4+ can remove then rather easily.

Seems like you should just take out the oblits and stay away while shooting at him since you have mobilty and range on him

Keep it wiggly
-Wiggly

Thor665 wrote:

Squads of Oblits - a primary threat for a meched up DE such as yourself. Now, there's a *major* question here - do they have a Mark of Nurgle? If they do not, they will be Toughness 4, if they do then they are toughness 5 w. FNP. As i said, *big* difference If they lack the MoN then the answer to them is usually massed dark lance fire, as each successful wound is a totally dead Obliterator. Also, assault by Incubi or a lord w. Huskblade will equate to very dead Oblits. If they have the MoN you may still need to assault them, just with more force than before, and also streams of poison firepower become more viable as you'll really just need to try to torrent them down.

First off let me say that MoN only gives +1 toughness (FNP is either a icon of slaanesh (which they cant get) or plague marines) So if they have MoN, I would take them down with splinter fire. If they dont, a dark lance IDs them.

@Shadow - yes, for some reason I keep juxtaposing their invulnerable with a FNP. The 5+ FNP is still messing with my mind.

lol its alright Thor. Lets be thankful they got the daemon USR and not the daemon rule from the daemon codex, or you would see Oblitz way more than havocs now (btw the daemon rule in the daemon codexs gives EW... where as the USR doesnt)

If you ask me I think you got your troops covered. At least the warriors =)
I would leave the Archon at home and use the Haemonculi as the mandatory HQ.
The wyches is a nice tool to throw against his Landraider but the question is if you need all 8 of them. Maybe ditch two of them and the hekatrix to save points? Tool em up with hay wire grenades and one of the haemonculi and aim for the big metal box =P
I personally love the Incubi, rules- fluff and modelwise but going up against toughness 5 is just not down their alley. They cost to much and are way to fragile up against either Plague marines or Nurgle Termies. These points are better spent else where. =)
All over tactics: Charge only the vehicles and drown the rest with poison bullets.

Looks like your pretty covered with responses here.

For your list:

I really think that assault units are getting a hard time of late. I'd say keep the Archon, stick him with some generic incubi and send him in for some heavy hitting

Definitely give the Razorwings disintegrators, so they are dedicated anti-infantry. I'd roll with just the 1 as well, and use your other Heavy slot for another Ravager with Dark Lances

Lastly, give some Reaver Jetbikes a go. 6 of them with an Arena Champ (for extra leadership) and 2 Heat Lances or Blasters. You've got a highly versatile, extremely mobile & surprisingly durable unit right there. You can turbo boost them to Bladevane, or shoot off the special weapons for anti-armour OR anti-infantry (let's not forget that 2 weapons with great AP values will do valuable damage to expensive Marines!). Then you can Jetbike jump them back into cover once they've fired. Just use them wisely as they will draw fire!

Little bit more:

your more manoeuvrable, so always dictate where things are going to happen. Don't react to him else you will already be behind

Use cover and be a right sneaky git with it. Paper planes and evil space spoofs just ain't as durable as rock 'ard plague marines, so use cover to keep yourself out of sight, lining up your target without drawing fire from everything else

Good Hunting!

Anyone who starts playing dark eldar should be forced at gunpoint to read thor's reply and memorize it word for word!

I'm thinking of building a khorne/nurgle force as my second army after DE of couse. Can anyone suggest an intelligent csm blog and or forum for me to learn from and post my lists for feedback? It would help me out no end. Thanx guys.

Directed to the original post:
I am not all that experienced either, but I used to play chaos. To beat teh Khorne army (I'm good at that generally, I played last night against 1500 pts of Khorne, Big Guns Never Tire, and won 5-3, he had 2 heavy support (land raider and Defiler) and I didn't have any heavy support.) don't even bother with wyches. Take 2 squads of 4 Kabalites in Venoms, the venoms will get popped pretty quick most likely, but they will let you get closer at least. With his 3+ save doind nothing against S8 AP2 he will hate life, especially if he has 8 of those shots coming at him. I would also suggest scourges with Haywire blasters if he takes vehicles, because the Heavy support vehicles that Chaos has have high armor, and even with lance, its a 4 to glance. You'll do much better with haywire. Take at least 20 Kabalites, I took 1 squad of 10 with a blaster and splinter cannon in a raider with splinter racks, nightshields and flickerfields and Disintegrator cannon, then 2x5 Kabalites with a blaster in each squad in venoms, then 2x4 Blasterborn in venoms, 9 Incubi with a Archon, and 5 scourges with two haywire blasters. It went pretty well, it was a close game.

To beat the Nurgle army, take splinter weapons, and as much low AP as you can. Dark lances aren't quite a good choice, because it is hard to fire them on the move. Take splinter cannons in your Kabalites, and take Incubi. He won't like the S4 ap3 weapons from the Incubi. The reason I'd take splinter weapons is because his Plague Marines have T5. Wyches will need 6's to wound in CC, so I wouldn't bother. Take blasterborn for him as well, and some haywire for his Land Raider. I'm guessing he takes power fists as well? It's pretty common for Nurgle players to take them, because they figure, "hey, I have low initiative anyway, why not?" If this drive around in as many vehicles as you can and shoot him to pieces. Take Ravagers if you can, with disintegrator cannons, it'll be a 4+ to wound, just like splinter weapons, and he won't get his saves (though he will get feel no pain, but it's a 5+)

Thor665 wrote:

I am neutral towards this squad in a general sense, but mostly because of the other things your army has. Basically that Archon is an elite assault piece...and Wyches are no longer elite assault pieces. Also, the Archon who has a shadowfield really doesn't get much from having FNP - he is usually worried about instant death, and FNP is useless for that. Also, there is basically no point to that Hekatrix...why are you even paying for that unit with the Archon here? The only reason to take a Hekatrix is as a leadership boost (Archon covers that here) or to take a special weapon on her (and you haven't) ::shrug:: You're just wasting points - either get her a venom blade or something, or just drop her from the squad.

Frankly, if it were me, the Archon would get a PGL and would be riding around with Incubi, not Wyches. Incubi+PGL+Archon = bad news for pretty much any other unit in the game.

Wyches are, nowadays, probably sadly better served as HWG delivery units and minor tarpit annoyances.

I don't agree with this at all. IMO a wych retinue is fine for what it is, ie a cheap way to protect the archon and allowing him to kill stuff safer. Sure it won't kill as well as an Incubi unit but that's not the point, the Archon does that, the wyches are just there to protect him. Wyches provide "cheap" wounds, a decent tarpit (they'll likely survive longer then Incubi vs MCs for example) and potentially Furious Charge (if you roll a pain token result on drugs and have drugs on the Archon himself which you really should on a huskblade archon) which is a big deal for a Huskblade Archon. Likewise the Hekatrix is there more for protection/support (taking challenges the archon doesn't want to take) and not dealing damage (though it's not like you couldn't kit her out a bit if you want, just that it's not required for her to fulfill her main purpose). Not saying that they are at their best vs Chaos Marine lists but I consider them a decent option for a retinue if you don't want to shell out for Incubi+PGL (expensive) or Grots (expensive and kinda cumbersome).

Kabal_of_the_Red_Shadow wrote:

To beat the Nurgle army, take splinter weapons, and as much low AP as you can. Dark lances aren't quite a good choice, because it is hard to fire them on the move. Take splinter cannons in your Kabalites, and take Incubi. He won't like the S4 ap3 weapons from the Incubi. The reason I'd take splinter weapons is because his Plague Marines have T5. Wyches will need 6's to wound in CC, so I wouldn't bother. Take blasterborn for him as well, and some haywire for his Land Raider. I'm guessing he takes power fists as well? It's pretty common for Nurgle players to take them, because they figure, "hey, I have low initiative anyway, why not?" If this drive around in as many vehicles as you can and shoot him to pieces. Take Ravagers if you can, with disintegrator cannons, it'll be a 4+ to wound, just like splinter weapons, and he won't get his saves (though he will get feel no pain, but it's a 5+)

I honestly don't see why you wouldn't still take Dark Lances vs Nurgle. Sure they are T5 but so what? Lances still vaporize them just the same (it's not like the lose of Insta Death really matters, they are just 1 wound) and movement shouldn't be an issue as your lances should be mounted on ravagers/raiders. Same with Blasters. The Blaster really doesn't suddenly get that much worse an option vs Nurgle. Yeah Poison ignores the toughness change but S8 doesn't care about T5 either and AP2 is well worth it compared to AP5. I also have no idea why you'd especially recommend disinitigrators vs Nurgle. If anything I would say Blaster/Dark Lances are weapons that retain their value vs Nurgle and it's the Disintigrator that get worse vs them. Not to say they would do a bad job but...

Anyway for the OP: Chaos is not a hard list to beat as DE (especially not the list you mention). Massed Dark Lances, Blasters, and Venom Cannons should make short work of him and your speed should let you play keep away nicely.

Kabal_of_the_Red_Shadow wrote:

To beat the Nurgle army, take splinter weapons, and as much low AP as you can. Dark lances aren't quite a good choice, because it is hard to fire them on the move. Take splinter cannons in your Kabalites, and take Incubi. He won't like the S4 ap3 weapons from the Incubi. The reason I'd take splinter weapons is because his Plague Marines have T5. Wyches will need 6's to wound in CC, so I wouldn't bother. Take blasterborn for him as well, and some haywire for his Land Raider. I'm guessing he takes power fists as well? It's pretty common for Nurgle players to take them, because they figure, "hey, I have low initiative anyway, why not?" If this drive around in as many vehicles as you can and shoot him to pieces. Take Ravagers if you can, with disintegrator cannons, it'll be a 4+ to wound, just like splinter weapons, and he won't get his saves (though he will get feel no pain, but it's a 5+)

I honestly don't see why you wouldn't still take Dark Lances vs Nurgle. Sure they are T5 but so what? Lances still vaporize them just the same (it's not like the lose of Insta Death really matters, they are just 1 wound) and movement shouldn't be an issue as your lances should be mounted on ravagers/raiders. Same with Blasters. The Blaster really doesn't suddenly get that much worse an option vs Nurgle. Yeah Poison ignores the toughness change but S8 doesn't care about T5 either and AP2 is well worth it compared to AP5. I also have no idea why you'd recommend disinitigrators. If anything I would say Blaster/Dark Lances are weapons that retain their value vs Nurgle and it's the Disintigrator that get worse vs them.

I just prefer more shots, unless you take absolutely nothing but blasters and DLs, I'd say you have a better chance with more shots, but that's just my opinion. It worked great against Khorne the other nigh, though I've never faced plague marines, so I guess I don't have that much room to talk. 12 shots from a venom that wound on 4+ just seems great to me. usually took out 6ish Bezerkers per round of shooting per venom (I had 4) It also made quick work of his Daemon Prince. The dark lances only have one shot, so unless you have a whole bunch, you only have ONE shot. Though if that shot hits, it is usually 1 kill, so ill give you that, but still. More shots just sounds better to me.

Kabal_of_the_Red_Shadow wrote:

12 shots from a venom that wound on 4+ just seems great to me. usually took out 6ish Bezerkers per round of shooting per venom (I had 4).

6 kills per venom? Wow that's pretty insane luck. I mean at 3+ to hit (so likely around 8 hits), 4+ to wound (so likely 4 wounds), and him still getting his 3+ save (meaning he likely would have lost about 1 guy) you really shouldn't have done anywhere near that much damage. That said I'm not against Splinter Cannons at all, I was simply disagreeing with the comment that Lances/Blasters would be any less effective vs Nurgle then they are vs other armies.

Murkglow wrote:

I don't agree with this at all. IMO a wych retinue is fine for what it is, ie a cheap way to protect the archon and allowing him to kill stuff safer. Sure it won't kill as well as an Incubi unit but that's not the point, the Archon does that, the wyches are just there to protect him. Wyches provide "cheap" wounds, a decent tarpit (they'll likely survive longer then Incubi vs MCs for example) and potentially Furious Charge (if you roll a pain token result on drugs and have drugs on the Archon himself which you really should on a huskblade archon) which is a big deal for a Huskblade Archon. Likewise the Hekatrix is there more for protection/support (taking challenges the archon doesn't want to take) and not dealing damage (though it's not like you couldn't kit her out a bit if you want, just that it's not required for her to fulfill her main purpose). Not saying that they are at their best vs Chaos Marine lists but I consider them a decent option for a retinue if you don't want to shell out for Incubi+PGL (expensive) or Grots (expensive and kinda cumbersome).

Well, my immediate counter is - he's already buying an Incubi unit, so maximize it by getting it the PGL, while the Wyches do not need that Archon and the Incubi do.

To your more general rebuttal;

I rather disagree on the drug aspect, that is such a minor benefit and percentage chance of it triggering that it doesn't seem worth discussing.

As far as Wyches survivability - nowadays the 3+ save vs. the 4+ invulnerable is a bit more flexible as to which is or isn't more survivable. I'd call it a bit of a wash considering that the Incubi will allow less attacks back to even happen since they'll kill more. Honestly, probably an advantage to the Incubi, really except versus specific matchups.

An Incubi Klaivex can answer challenges as well as a Hekatrix can - she's probably more generically survivable, he's more likely to just kill what he's fighting. Again, hardly a real advantage for the Wyches.

I wouldn't take a huskblade Archon vs. a MC until he could solo it - by the time he can solo it, then it doesn't matter what his retinue is or isn't. I'll agree that if I was forced into an MC fight that I would rather have Wyches than Incubi in said fight, but I'm not sure that means they are a better retinue since; 1. in almost every other matchup out there the Incubi will be better 2. Not many armies even run MCs nowadays and 3. Those that do should probably be shot to death by poison/lances in any case and not assaulted.

After that, your basic point seems to be that Wyches are cheaper than Incubi (I agree) and are a good tarpit (I agree) so I'm not entirely sure what the debate point is. They can certainly serve as a retinue, but are inferior to Incubi since they are tarpits and not killing forces, is the point I made, and your conclusion seems to be awfully close to that as well except that you want them considered as a cheap tarpitty potential option - and I'll agree they are a more affordable (and equally less functional for that affordability) option, and are best for a tarpit sort of service when serving as a retinue.

Thor665 wrote:

To your more general rebuttal;

I rather disagree on the drug aspect, that is such a minor benefit and percentage chance of it triggering that it doesn't seem worth discussing.

When you look at the overall chances of getting a good result it's not a minor benefit at all. +S, +A, and reoll to wounds are all good results on drugs for a huskblade archon (some better then others obviously). The pain token result however isn't, unless you have a pain token in the unit already (since as you said FnP isn't useful) in which case it does become a useful roll. So you go from having 3/6 useful rolls to 4/6 (or 2/6 to 3/6 if you take out the +A roll). That's not an insignificant change. It might very well be the difference between activating that Soul-Trap and not activating it and it is not something Incubi can help with (at least not directly).

Thor665 wrote:

As far as Wyches survivability - nowadays the 3+ save vs. the 4+ invulnerable is a bit more flexible as to which is or isn't more survivable. I'd call it a bit of a wash considering that the Incubi will allow less attacks back to even happen since they'll kill more. Honestly, probably an advantage to the Incubi, really except versus specific matchups.

I don't know about that. Given we're talking about a huskblade archon we know he's going to be going for IC units (likely the best melee unit in their army) or MCs and in either case I very much doubt 3+ armor saves will be useful. The point that fewer attacks will come back on them (due to incubi killing more) is valid sure but at the same time you're paying quite a bit more, I should hope that would be the case.

Thor665 wrote:

An Incubi Klaivex can answer challenges as well as a Hekatrix can - she's probably more generically survivable, he's more likely to just kill what he's fighting. Again, hardly a real advantage for the Wyches.

She is also quite a bit cheaper. If you're just looking for someone to absorb challenges for the archon that might be the only difference that matters.

Thor665 wrote:

I wouldn't take a huskblade Archon vs. a MC until he could solo it - by the time he can solo it, then it doesn't matter what his retinue is or isn't. I'll agree that if I was forced into an MC fight that I would rather have Wyches than Incubi in said fight, but I'm not sure that means they are a better retinue since; 1. in almost every other matchup out there the Incubi will be better 2. Not many armies even run MCs nowadays and 3. Those that do should probably be shot to death by poison/lances in any case and not assaulted.

When did I say Wyches were better (Incubi had better be better as you're paying a heck of a lot more for them)? I simply said they are a valid option in response to (what read to me as) your dismissal of them.

Ie changed my list a fair bit
Duke with 9 wytches on a raider
1 raider with true born and 2sc
3 Raiders with 10 warriors with sc
2 venoms with 3 true born carrying 2 sc
2 vanilla razorwings
Ravager

The ravager has been doing dick all. Flyers have been dishing decent damage and soaking shots.
True born raider gets the dukes 3plus poison.

Duke has been a monster in challenges. Rocked the face off a chaos lord yesterday worth twice as many points.
I'm having much better luck!

Update, my collection has swelled to 5 or 6 thousand points.
I played the death company tonight and tabled it in 3 turns.
I also played a dark angels list today, went first and tabled him before he got his second turn.
My current list looks like this

6 venoms with 2 Splinter cannons.
Each carries 5 warriors with no upgrades

3 venoms with 2 Splinter cannons
Carries 4 true born with blasters in each
(I've gotten used to moving 6, disembarking 6 and shooting 18 for a 30 inch threat zone with 12 blaster shots)

3 ravagers vanilla with dark lances

Because I need an hq, I'm just taking a cheap haemonculus and leaving him backfield
So he doesn't die.

At 1850 points I'm filling it out with 2 squads of 5 scourges. Haywire and blasters. Deep striking
To help pop tanks and take focus off the vehicles.

I was taking vect on the dais with incubi for the extra vehicle and the chance to go first but the death star is too pricey. Considering I use no assault, vect seems like a waste.

If I don't get to deploy and go first, I just deploy far enough back to not get shot.

On the changed list with the duke:

You are aware that if the list includes a unit of warriors you HAVE to start the duke with that unit?! You'd have to sacrife an entire turn of movement to get him back to the wyches. Additionally only 1 unit of warriors does benefit from the poison and 1 wych unit benefits from his drug reroll. That's just not worth the investment in the Duke, rather get your archon with some incubi and shred everything.

Math-hammer (without exact numbers here) says that for the poison upgrade to really matter you'd need a blob of 20 warriors with the duke. On top of that general economics teach us that you should try to have more than one unit with combat drugs for his other ability to matter.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

You don't really sacrifice movement if you start the duke outside his raider with a unit of 10 warriors he can then leave the warriors and jump into a raider with wyches, the warriors can get in their own raider and the raiders can then move as much as need be (even move flat out). This way you don't sacrifice any movement, and get a splinter cannon that wounds on a 3+!

It would be better if the list had more than one unit with combat drugs, that way the drug re-roll would affect more units.

Touché, Mush! Thanks for the heads up. My point with the drugs still stands though