Running empty Venoms

Wanted to see how many of you take a similar tactic that I use with my MSU build.

In my list I have 8 Venoms all with double Splinter Cannons. However, I deploy 4 of those units out of the Venoms (3 sniper Trueborn) and 1 unit of cheap wracks to man the Quad gun.

I find that because they are unmanned, any fire they manage to attract is very reluctant fire. I'll end up using the Venoms as a screen for Venoms with troops/Ravager. I've also found that if a Venom with troops gets destroyed and they are not pinned/broken it's convenient having plenty of empty Venoms they can hitch a ride on.

Is this a tactic you've done? Have you used Raiders instead?

I must admit, I'd never thought of it - my transports are there for transporting. I've never been a real fan of static units in my DE list (to give me spare dedicated transports), but maybe I should give it a go...

Sure, even if you have static units you should always buy venoms/raiders when you can. Venoms are an amazing deal for their costs that there is no reason not to. That said there aren't all that many units in the army that I would be ok with sitting on the field. Trueborn with lances are the only ones that come to mind. I don't like Wracks (and especially not ones that sit in the backfield) nor am I a fan of warrior blobs (10 or 20 man, and you can only buy transports for squads that can fit in them so warrior blobs don't make good use of this idea anyway). So while I am in favor of this idea I don't think it comes up often.

Maybe consider giving your empty Venoms Grisly Trophies too. A highly underrated upgrade IMHO.

WWP and empty venoms?

I run empty venoms all the time. I usually have 2 naked warriors units in reserve and deploy the venoms. I also do this with my rifle and splinter born.I don't like pinning checks and/or losing half the unit to vehicles. I like to give my opponent lots of option. Not two birds with one stone.
And yes to the grisly trophies. Not on all venoms, but can be very useful to have. Keeps my beasts safer

DominicJ wrote:

WWP and empty venoms?

vehicles can't move through WWP's.

But their squads can enter through the wwp

so the venom/raider starts on the board and the squad enters via the webway
no need to sit back

I use the tactic extensively. If I am in no rush to get to grips with the enemy, there's no need to inflict casualities on your Troops or Blasterborn when the Venoms explode. Usually around Turn 3-4 any surviving Venoms will pick up their cargo and run downfield to start hammering any of the opponent's hiding units. The net effect of this, as noted above, is that no individual Venom is worth more than another. They are expendable.

The downside is that you are not exactly overwhelming your enemy with threats, and there are some opponents where it is better to just throw everything you have as close to them as you can so you can get everything stuck in (not Sniperborn, though).

Tau are a good example of CaptainBalroga's downside mention.

Since the advent of 6th edition, I either run all of my Raiders and Venoms empty, or I flat out/aethersail them as far as I can the first turn and then empty them as quickly as I can. But I usually prefer not to miss a turn of shooting, if I can at all help it, so invariably they are empty.

Like others, I hate losing troops to exploding vehicles, and as Colin mentioned, I would rather give my opponent two target choices instead of one. With Venoms, they always attract my opponent's undivided attention from the get-go, so why put anything in them? I use them and my Raiders as mobile gun platforms that ultimately are, as the good Captain said, expendable.

My last game i tried some empty transports, and loved it! One venom got through and took out a squad of cultists sitting on an objective! If they live the enemy suffers, if they die, you have other units not getting shot at, win/win.

I know the topic is about venoms. But I have had similar experiences with running empty raiders when the situation demands. It's amazing how they get ignored when they don't have passengers inside. No one wants to bother shooting an empty Piñata.

Not to mention the raiders can still catapult your troops towards objectives on turn 4 as long as you keep your raiders within 6" of them. Troops move 6", 2" embark, raider moves 12", raider moves flat out 18", next turn raiders moves 6", troops disembark 6", troops run 4" (fleet). Suddenly you are on an objective 60" away! Let your opponent ignore those empty raiders, and punish him for it accordingly. Sure your enemy has a chance of shooting it down, but by turn 4 their AT should hopefully be depleted, making it surprisingly hard to take out that 4+ cover save transport, even if they do the survivors might crash near enough to capture the objective.

I use this tactic regulary and run my Venoms and Raiders empty. They are a lot less attractive target when there are no squishy T3 eldar in them when they explode (3+ with melta ). Then your opponent has to make a choise of shooting your troops or skimmers from T1.

Late game transports with Raider are a bit more feasible than Venom due to the fackt that there should not be so much AV left than there are targets for splinter shots. Usually the one lance or 3 dissie shots don't matter as much as a full salvo of 12 splinter shells form a Venom when you need to kill those last 2 enemy troops from an objective.

colinsherlow wrote:

I run empty venoms all the time. I usually have 2 naked warriors units in reserve and deploy the venoms. I also do this with my rifle and splinter born.I don't like pinning checks and/or losing half the unit to vehicles. I like to give my opponent lots of option. Not two birds with one stone.
And yes to the grisly trophies. Not on all venoms, but can be very useful to have. Keeps my beasts safer

I run a lot of empty transports, but I thought that the line in the rulebook that stated that transports and their passengers are considered one until for reserves precluded spliting them up with one in reserve and the other on the field.

Nappen wrote:

I run a lot of empty transports, but I thought that the line in the rulebook that stated that transports and their passengers are considered one until for reserves precluded spliting them up with one in reserve and the other on the field.

Yup it makes no sense. A unit and its transport count as a single choice for the purpose of the 50% rule. What happens if you start the unit on the board and the transport in reserve? Do you count them as a reserved unit or a unit on the board for the purpose of the 50% rule? Who knows.

I agree, I don't think you can split them that way. Now, both on the board, there is no rule saying they have to start in the vehicle...I do that a lot. 10 warriors with the duke, then load them up leaving him behind. That way they can have the SC and 3+ to wound

yeah I would like a rule (clarification) on stating whether or not you can split a unit half in reserve and half not.
I play it so that I can start 1 or the other in reserve, but I just count it towards my 50%

is there a rule maybe for marines that might help clairfy this? like a 10 man unit with a rhino splitting in two combat squads and 1 starting in reserve with or without the rhino?

Not that I know of and nothing in the FAQ. Just the rules saying they count as one unit.

Nappen wrote:

I agree, I don't think you can split them that way. Now, both on the board, there is no rule saying they have to start in the vehicle...I do that a lot. 10 warriors with the duke, then load them up leaving him behind. That way they can have the SC and 3+ to wound

Doesn't he have to stay with the unit for them to incur that bonus?

No, only start with them. Once the game starts he can leave and they keep the bonus.

Yep, has to be warriors or trueborne, he has to deploy with them, and their weapons are upgraded to 3+ poison.

The codex (p51) says he must be deployed with the unit, but doesn't say he has to stay with them.