haemonculi and incubi

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2225-understanding-incubi-misconceptions-and-results?highlight=incubi

Its fifth edition math hammer but i think it still might be pertinent to this discussion. 8 incubi with a haemonculis are around the same points as 4 plus an archon with a sf hb and pgl. The incubi with the haemi also have a nice overwatch bullet sponge.
Here's the truth. As fun as fully loaded cc hqs are they wont usually kill as many points as the equivalent points in dedicated cc units like incubi (at least in the case of dark eldar). Large units of Incubi with fnp are a lot tougher than most people think.
All that being said I run grots with two succubie for my cc unit instead

That is true - but what is the rest of your army doing, and if you want to go with a squad of 8 Incubi would it be better served by an Archon with PGL than a Haem?

Also, yes, that is a 5th edition conversation. You know what it overlooks (besides the ability to assault into cover)? Overwatch (also challenges).
Which is kind of a big deal nowadays and has already semi-killed the 4 man Incubi build far better than the debate of more bodies vs. PGL ever could.

Yes, there is not much question that 8 Incubi has more killing potential than 4+Archon (oh, really, 12 Str 4 power weapon attacks are more killy than 6 Str 3 ones - I am amazed!). That said, for less than 100 points more you can have 8 Incubi with that Archon, and is *that* a better unit (even while being more expensive) than the Haem build? Would it be better if you did both?

That's the actual debate.
Yes, if you definitely want to field Incubi and have only around 280 to field them *and* an HQ, then, sure, don't sweat the PGL. But if you're starting from scratch and want to include an Incubi unit for maximum efficiency of the Incubi unit - the PGL is an important tool. FNP can be very useful as well, but there are a number of ways to try and get that. There are not many ways to get a PGL into the unit though.

Yes it does depend on the rest of the army.

The hammer is actually better now for the Haemi as you get a FNP token. regarding 100 points better . For that you can have 3 Wracks in a Venom with 12 Splinter Cannon shots at 36" firing every turn for the difference . Even worse that 300+ points 8 Incubi unit + Archon will get hit by everything the enemy has.

To me 6-7 do the job i want .. they can clear an objective if needed , can counter/reduce the death star comming up the middle or force him to sit there. Where i can shoot him to pieces by concentrating my whole army .

Note i use 10 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers to clear anything in cover and then assault whats left and some wyches for AT .

If we're getting into that sort of language - I don't even run Incubi competitively anymore and think they're a point sink we don't need.

That said, the point still remains, if you run anywhere between 4-9 Incubi, what serves them better? No HQ, a Haem, or an Archon?

I still think the answer is Archon regardless. Yes, maybe the unit becomes so expensive it is a giant target - such is the life of Incubi, ruddy 4 Incubi with no HQ attached (despite how useless they are) will be a target of likely high priority from almost any opponent who fears assault. If the opponent does not fear assault then 8 Incubi+Archon+Haem will draw as much fire as 4 Incubi.

Yes, you can have a shooting army do the job of the Incubi.
Yes, you can use Wyches or Wracks, or Beasts, or Hellions as your assault tool instead of Incubi.
But if you field Incubi, how do you maximize Incubi and make them best able to be useful to your army?

I don't think the answer is 'with no HQ' because those Incubi are gimped and unable to do a lot of things for your army. You are paying for an elite assault unit and then agreeing that there are a lot of targets you won't even assault because your elite assault unit can't handle them.

I think they work with a Haem, but all he does is make them moderately tougher to kill.

I think they combo very well with an Archon, whose strengths emulate theirs, who has some abilities that lessen their weaknesses to a large degree, who opens them up tactically, and who will want to assault the same sort of targets they will want to assault.

That's why I think the Archon is, by a large amount, the best combo with Incubi. Haems can work, but aren't as good, and the best is to have both (as either getting FNP or FC onto Incubi is a good thing)