Lelith's Seein Stars with Seer Council

HQ
1 Lelith Hesparax 175
1 Farseer 4 Psychic powers from telepathy/divination, Runes of warding/Witnessing, Spirit Stones 185
10 Seer Council 2x Conceal, Enhance, 7x Embolden, Singing Spears 360

Elites
4 Kabalite Trueborn 4x Blasters 108

Troops
10 Kabalite Warriors Splinter Cannon 100
10 Kabalite Warriors Splinter Cannon 100
3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron 66
5 Wyches Haywire Grenades, Shardnet & Impaler 70
5 Wyches Haywire Grenades, Shardnet & Impaler 70

Fast Attack
3 Reaver Jetbikes Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance 98
3 Reaver Jetbikes Cluster Caltrops, Heat Lance 98

Heavy Support
1 Ravager Night Shield 115
3 Support Weapon Battery Shadow Weaver x3 90

Dedicated Transports

2 Raiders
Flickerfield, Night Shields, Splinter Racks
(Kabalite Warriors)
180
1 Venom
Splinter Cannon
(Kabalite Trueborn)
65
1 Venom
Splinter Cannon
(Wyches)
65
1 Venom (Wyches) 55
Roster Total: 2000

The idea here is to use conceal from the seer council and try to get invisibility on the farseer. The farseer statistically should get invisibility 2 out of 3 games. If he DOES get it, Lelith will be deployed with the farseer and the council for a guaranteed 15 attacks per round against any unit on the charge, and the entire unit will have a 2+ cover save even in the open. Furthermore, Lelith's WS and initiative will be improved to 10, while any unit they face in CC will have their WS reduced to 1.

If the FS does NOT get invis, Lelith becomes less important to the army as a whole, and may be deployed with a different unit, such as the blasterborn. In this case, I will be using the FS units abilities from telepathy to disable and stall important enemy units while my shooty guys thin out the herd. Will basically be using the FS/Seer council defensively to hold off attacks against my scoring units to hold objectives.

In either case, I've got lots of poison shots, blast weapons, and cluster caltrops for hordes. I've also got 5 vehicle mounted dark lances, 2 heat lances, 4 blasters, 10 singing spears, and 2 haywire squads to deal with vehicles/armor. Thoughts?

Betray It looks good except your Reavers a 3 man unit is to small, practicaly giveing a kill pt away, also haveing your Reavers with both upgraded guns and CC is a waste of pts. Pick one or the other and use the pt for either more reavers or to make your HQ harder to kill.

Its a novel idea but as much as id love to see lilith with 15 attacks I wonder if doom wouldnt just be better since she already has soo many attacks.. say in a harlie star perhaps?
Its pretty much a guaranteed lesser version of invisibility, minus the WS1 debuff, except then you can take doom and she will likely hit harder.

Brom wrote:

Its pretty much a guaranteed lesser version of invisibility, minus the WS1 debuff, except then you can take doom and she will likely hit harder.

I don't know about that. Yeah, she'll convert more wounds per hit, but she'll have significantly less attacks. With my method, she's guaranteed to be hitting on a 3+ against all enemies in CC, and all enemies need a 5+ to hit her.

In the harliestar unit, she can get in trouble in CC with other MCs and ICs, and they only provide a 4+ cover save on open ground.

The seer list gives 2+ cover saves no matter where they're at, and the WS 1 debuff makes her much safer from the opponent's MCs and ICs. I was discussing this with someone previously, and one benefit to the seer council is the fact that the entire council counts as characters. They can all accept challenges, so you can't get cornered into a challenge against Lelith or the FS that you don't want.

And the 10, 12" fleshbane assault shots from the singing spears is likely to soften up any lone MCs that you find yourself at odds with. Also, I didn't realize this till I was already putting the list together, but singing spears get the following profile vs vehicles when thrown:

12" range, S9

The unit I've built has 10 of those shots. They will average 6.6 hits on any given target, and against AV 13 they damage on 4+. With Lelith's impossible to miss haywire grenade, that's pretty much a dead vehicle.(Average 4 glances, not even considering pen rolls) And with fleet, they can mop up the contents of said vehicle handily.

I agree seer councils can be pretty nuts, its amazing how much of that dex can still throw down, in the right context. Ive been made aware of S9 singing spears by my brothers former eldar army. Their good.

Fair enough on the cover save, I guess I just dont like the idea of liliths roll in the strategy hinging on a psych power roll, as opposed to guaranteed 4++ in the open and 2++ in any terrain. Either way though the odds are in your favor, I just know how I roll for shiz like that.

For changes consider this:
lose the shardnet/impalers and the caltrops to upgrade the farseer to eldrad and get a grip of destructors. Makes the council perform better in its secondary role of protecting scorers and replaces caltrops for horde control.

You can swap conceal out as well since the whole unit has ++ saves

Massaen wrote:

You can swap conceal out as well since the whole unit has ++ saves

Actually, can't do this. Conceal is taken, not because it's better than the ++ saves, but because it's the only one that will stack with stealth and shrouded for the 2+ cover save on open ground.

@Brom, You think the destructors would be better for horde control than 2x cluster caltrops? They already have range assault, so they would be exchanging the ability to singing spear for destructers, basically. Also, the reason I took farseer instead of Eldrad is that Eldrad makes the unit no longer fleet of foot. He'd bring the ability to use +1 psychic power, but he'd slow the entire unit down. Think that's worth it?

I'd drop the shardnets on the wyches, and the reaver squads to fill the ravager quota.

Quote :

I'd drop the shardnets on the wyches, and the reaver squads to fill the ravager quota.

I like this better, otherwise combining the units into 1x6 would be good.

Regarding the destructors, yes I'd say worth it. You gain the utility of multiple heavy flamers while still having spears for longer range and overwatch for only 20-30 pts more. The problem with caltrops IMO is the platforms. The seer council is far sturdier than 3 man bike squads plus when destructor does come into play its not random. Delivery of those templates could prove problematic though, ive never really seen a foot council or slogging flamers other than on dreads, which come to think of it are great for countering deep striking units. Yes take them. 1d6 hits or 4 HFs for 20 pts.. (since youve already sprung for embolden that is). Hell at least lose the shardnets for destructors.

On eldrad, I had forgotten he doesnt have fleet so there is that to consider, especially if you end up using destructors before an assault since you may need the extra distance after burning models off.

What it comes down to is the farseer furthers the invisibility gameplan more, while eldrad is better at everything else for +30 pts. Its a toss up, one is more all in on the psych rolls, the other more general utility.

Is the loss of around 2 inches of charge range worth 3 powers a turn and redeploying d3+1 units? Id say so although there will be times when you fail to assault when you'd want fleet back.

Just some thoughts. Also keep in mind im new to piloting dark eldar although I have been playing this game for over a decade.

I'll take another look at the psychic powers table and consider what you've said. I actually like my reavers for their utility, but I could see dropping the shardnets for destructors. Would add more versatility to the council. Not sure about losing fleet, since they're footslogging, they'd use it for run distances as well.

Cool, eldrad if by no means mandatory in this list plus you save 30 pts. Either way its a pretty cool concept, id like to see it play.

i'm intrigued by this list, and really want to know how it plays out. i'm still new to the DE and have yet to build any kind of significant force so if this works then it'll give me a list to purchase models from.

one question though, if your up against a horde army, i can kinda understand the Shadow Weavers, but against anything else i'm not sure they'd be worth having. in my experiences playing my Eldar, the shadow weavers and nightspinners have never really done that great. i've watched marines just walk right through the stuff unaffected. i've also never seen a 3 man Jetbike squad last more than a couple of turns. to many people know they can claim objectives at last minute, and so they tend to shoot them out of the sky with a quickness, plus being only 3 guys it's an easy kill point/first blood for marines.

SebastionSynn wrote:

i'm intrigued by this list, and really want to know how it plays out. i'm still new to the DE and have yet to build any kind of significant force so if this works then it'll give me a list to purchase models from.

one question though, if your up against a horde army, i can kinda understand the Shadow Weavers, but against anything else i'm not sure they'd be worth having. in my experiences playing my Eldar, the shadow weavers and nightspinners have never really done that great. i've watched marines just walk right through the stuff unaffected. i've also never seen a 3 man Jetbike squad last more than a couple of turns. to many people know they can claim objectives at last minute, and so they tend to shoot them out of the sky with a quickness, plus being only 3 guys it's an easy kill point/first blood for marines.

Preface: This list isn't designed to fight against one specific army. It's more of an all-comers list.

About the shadow weavers, that's exactly what they're there for. They're there for hordes and xenos troops. Against T3, they're instadeath. And even though they don't have AP, 3 48" blast templates that can fire without LoS allows you to control a large bubble of the map against low-mid toughness models while keeping your guns fairly safe with placement behind/inside walls. Weighing in at 90 points, that's a bargain for a DE army that generally lacks any indirect fire weapons.

So far as the reavers go, there are 4 big changes between eldar jetbikes and reavers. #1, reavers can't cap points. They aren't troop choices. #2, reavers only get a 5+ armor save. #3, reavers all have skilled rider, with all the implications that entails(autopass dangerous terrain tests, +1 to jink cover saves), and finally, #4: Bladevanes.

EDIT: Oh, if you were referring to the 3 man guardian bike squad...yeah. That's the obligatory troop selection for using eldar allies. Will keep them in reserve, hoping for them to arrive later in the game, then try to keep them out of trouble long enough to cap points at the end. Reavers, on the other hand, being used offensively.

Quote :

EDIT: Oh, if you were referring to the 3 man guardian bike squad...yeah. That's the obligatory troop selection for using eldar allies. Will keep them in reserve, hoping for them to arrive later in the game, then try to keep them out of trouble long enough to cap points at the end. Reavers, on the other hand, being used offensively.

ok, that makes sense, and being jetbikes if for any reason it looks trouble is headed their way, 36" turbo to safety.

Quote :

Weighing in at 90 points, that's a bargain for a DE army that generally lacks any indirect fire weapons.

and that's why i ask questions. you learn something every day. thnx, it's appreciated.

SebastionSynn wrote:

and that's why i ask questions. you learn something every day. thnx, it's appreciated.

You're more than welcome! I enjoy discussing lists and game theory.

Ok, so I redid this list with Eldar as the primary, as per a suggestion from Shadow. I think many of the concepts being used here speak for themselves, as explained in this, and previous lists. As I'm not accustomed to making eldar primary lists, comments and suggestions are appreciated.

HQ
1 Lelith Hesparax 175
1 Farseer 4 Psychic powers from telepathy/divination, Runes of warding/Witnessing, Spirit
Stones, Singing Spear 188
1 Farseer Doom, Fortune, Runes of warding/Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Singing Spear 158
10 Seer Council 2x Conceal, Enhance, 7x Embolden, Singing Spears 360

Elites
5 Fire Dragons Exarch, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters, dragon's breath flamer 112
7 Howling Banshees Exarch, War Shout, Mirror Swords, Acrobatic 149
7 Howling Banshees Exarch, War Shout, Executioner, Acrobatic 149

Troops
6 Rangers 6x Pathfinder 144
5 Rangers 5x Pathfinder 120
5 Wyches Haywire Grenades 60

Heavy Support
1 Ravager Night Shield, Flickerfield 125
3 Support Weapons Battery 3x Shadow Weavers 90

Fortification
1 Aegis Defense Line Quad Gun 100

Dedicated Transports
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
Roster Total: 1995

i tried out the modified list we spoke of in private today, sadly didn't get past turn 3, as my opponent didn't show up till 4pm, and had to leave around 6:30pm.

deployment was the triangular table quarters.
mission was the one with 6 objectives, each worth a different points value. (can't remember the name of it and my rule book isn't handy)

i rolled for warlord on the personal traits hoping for the one that would give me victory points for every character killed, but got furious charge instead.

rolled for psychic and got, in order, hallucination, mental fortitude, and invisibility. since invis was what we were going for the last roll was on divination granting forewarning, which was promptly swapped out for prescience.

so the enemy list was Dark Angels, w/ 3 x 10 tactical squads, 2 terminator squads w/ Belial in one and a librarian w/ psychic hood in the other. that new Landspeeder w/ the invulnerable save and a Chaplain(i think) on an attack bike.

as things played out, the fire dragon exarch is really good on the quad gun with his abilities, sadly my opponent kept making his invul save on the @%$# landspeeder, so no problem with that trick. it will work exactly as you described and we discussed.

Lelith and the Farseer/seer council is another story. with the psychic hood he can deny the witch on the invisibility, plus he states that once the farseer is in CC with the terminators, her psychic abilities can no longer be used. i can't find anything that says this is the case, but if it is then it means the invis will wear off after the first turn of the assault. if Lelith splits from the group and is targeted by the farseer, he can still try to deny via the hood, and now the farseer/warlocks are visible to shooting from other quarters, and you know the opponent is going to pour fire into the group to prevent further tricks with the invisibility. he also stated that one of his leaders has a special rule for his armor that prevents his WS from being reduced below WS3.

now that's fine as Lelith can issue challenge and destroy the librarian if he takes the challenge removing the threat of the hood, and if he doesn't then one less terminator to worry about trying to hit us back, while she does her merry thing in murdering the rest of the termies. hopefully killing them all. so all in all, this trick should work just as we discussed as well, with just a few minor hiccups to get in the way, but once the hiccups are gone, no more worries. sadly footslogging these guys around the board, even with fleet, means a long time to get them into position to do their thing on several units. so it looks as if this will be more of a one or two hit wonder. we need a way to get them across the board Really, Really fast, and still be able to assault.

I dont think death stars work well for Eldar or Dark Eldar.

Unit is tough, thats true, but actually not that killy, Seer Councile never was, its a tarpit. And since its foot slogging it will kill maximum 1-2 targets and if you face shooting enemy i think nobody will shoot councile at all, just kill the rest of your army to frak. At 2k and with your force composition that can be done in 2-3 turns.

Shadow Weaver, as any Weapon Team is a supbar choice. Night Spinner is ok.

What you can have is better made with a Jetseer Councile and adding more units to the army.

Just wanted to add a couple points:

1. I dont have my rulebook for verification, but you can use psychic powers which are blessing/maledictions while in CC.

2. I'm almost certain the DA's have no special armor that prevents WS from being reduced below 3. Belial merely has terminator armor. The Librarian would have to take a piece of wargear, but I dont remember there being one that provides that ability.

SebastionSynn wrote:

Lelith and the Farseer/seer council is another story.

I see a lot of issues with the scenario you laid out. First off, if he's using the new dark angels codex(he should be), then his psychic hood only has a range of 6". This means you'd be knocking on that librarian's doorstep by the time he has a chance to use it. If you're that close to him, try to use the invis, and you have about a 50% chance of getting it off successfully. THEN, regardless of whether or not you successfully got it off, toss 10 singing spears and an armor-ignoring plasma grenade(that doesn't scatter) into that group of termies before you charge them. If you're in range for his hood to work, he's got more problems to worry about than invisibility.

Also, as pointed out, you can use blessings while you're in assault. So you can always try again after a round of combat. To be honest, though, I suspect that you'd have killed that group of termies fairly quickly with your deathstar attacks + Lelith ignoring their armor saves.

If he was further away than 6" of your deathstar when he used his hood, he was too far away to use it. Hoods got nerfed hard in 6th ed.

Also, as pointed out, Belial has no ability that keeps you from dropping his WS below 3. I looked up all his wargear and special rules, and there isn't even anything that can be confused for such an ability.

Next time your friend says something like that, don't be afraid to ask to see the wording of the rule. It may have been a miscommunication if he swapped Belial's normal gear out for a hammer & storm shield, and maybe he was saying that Lelith could only nullify his armor save down to a 3+(which would have been true with a storm shield). If he had this particular loadout, he would have had about a 27% chance of instadeathing Lelith in the first round of a challenge, if he didn't die first(about 50/50 on him dying before he gets an attack against an invisible Lelith). However, if he DID survive the first round, and DIDN'T make that 27% instakill, he's almost certainly dead in round 2 without getting an attack.

So, that basically covers the primary counters you mentioned to the Lelith unit, barring the fact that they are, indeed, footslogging it. There is simply nothing to be done for this, outside of mounting the council/farseer on jetbikes, then transporting Lelith in a vehicle to meet up with them further upfield.

If Lelith is to be included in this deathstar, they basically HAVE to footslog upfield unless you split the unit up. This isn't terrible. They can still move ~10" a round with fleet & running. If you find that this simply isn't enough, you could drop Lelith and the seer council altogether and try my FS/Reaver Jetbike list. It confers skilled rider to the farseer, and works on the same principles. It wouldn't be as effective a unit vs termies because of the 2+ save that Lelith would ignore, but you could equip an arena champion with an agonizer, and invisible, this would still be a pretty devastating unit in CC. It would also be cheaper than the seer council, and far more mobile. I've outlined this alternate list here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6121-1850-eldar-allies-list

There are, I'm sure, swaps and other things you could do to modify the list linked above to optimize it. I've discussed some of those in the thread. It exchanges the pure fightyness of the Lelith squad for much more maneuverability. It's also significantly cheaper, allowing you to throw some eggs in another basket.

I know this has been a long post, but I'm happy to see someone try out one of my lists, and would like to comment a bit further.

POST BATTLE COMMENTS:
The psychic roll thing worked out just as I suspected it would for you, and you ended up with some pretty great abilities. Invisibility, Hallucination, AND Prescience....pure awesome. On top of that, you also had furious charge. Not necessarily what you were after, but certainly not bad.

If all the rules were being followed correctly, I think you would have crushed him. 2 Termies squads is expensive, and Lelith would have chewed them up in melee, especially if you got the charge with furious charge. Based on what you had, and the rules of the game, I math hammered out what would happen if this unit clashed with termies and/or Belial/Librarian. You would have devastated them on the charge. Without it, you'd win, but take losses. Some serious math hammer in the below spoiler. Be warned. lol

Spoiler:

TL;DR - Your friend was incorrect in nearly every case. Ask to see the rule next time.

Quote :

Also, as pointed out, Belial has no ability that keeps you from dropping his WS below 3. I looked up all his wargear and special rules, and there isn't even anything that can be confused for such an ability.Next time your friend says something like that, don't be afraid to ask to see the wording of the rule.

believe me i ALWAYS ask to these special rules that GW gives to marines. this time though it didn't matter as he was being forced to leave anyways by his GF, so the game was ending with him calling a forfeit.
i'm not sure who he was refering to here, i'm assuming a unit champion or chapter master, but it could have been the librarian. Belial was on the other side of the table with a different group of termies who were about to be run down by two squads of wyches w/ shardnet, impalers. probably not a good idea in retrospect, but being my time playing Dark Eldar EVER, it seemed like a good idea at the time. question on this one, does the shardnet ability act as cumulative or just one once? IE: if there are four wyches w/ nets in base contact with a termie, is that termie at -4 or at -1 to his WS? also if a wych is in base contact with more than one termie can i choose which termie is at a minus to his WS or does my opponent?

Quote :

I see a lot of issues with the scenario you laid out. First off, if he's using the new dark angels codex(he should be), then his psychic hood only has a range of 6". This means you'd be knocking on that librarian's doorstep by the time he has a chance to use it. If you're that close to him, try to use the invis, and you have about a 50% chance of getting it off successfully. THEN, regardless of whether or not you successfully got it off, toss 10 singing spears and an armor-ignoring plasma grenade(that doesn't scatter) into that group of termies before you charge them. If you're in range for his hood to work, he's got more problems to worry about than invisibility.

he didn't get the chance to use the hood, i was further than 6" away with my farseer. sadly i was in cover and charging out of that same cover so both units would have attacked at the same time. i was also down by two warlocks due to the danged woods being mysterious. the woods forced my farseer(random roll and she was the one affected, thank god it wasn't lelith) to attack her own unit. both locks failed their invul save. i also swapped out 5 spears for another trueborn w/ splinter cannon, i had the pts thanks to the printing in MY codex under the warlocks. however, i completely forgot about the spears and Lelith's grenades till just now. at any rate it would have made no difference, since he told me about the librarian with the psychic hood, i would've challenged the librarian right off, that way lelith could murder him and i wouldn't have to worry about him being able to deny the invis anymore.

Quote :

Also, as pointed out, you can use blessings while you're in assault. So you can always try again after a round of combat. To be honest, though, I suspect that you'd have killed that group of termies fairly quickly with your deathstar attacks + Lelith ignoring their armor saves

i'm glad to see this verified by more than one person, i myself tore through the whole section on psychers and assaulting and did not find anything that even suggested that blessings/maledictions can't be used in assault. in 5th edition you couldn't use any power that was considered a shooting attack, and i know the same applies here in 6th, but blessings aren't shooting, neither are maledictions.

the way i see the rest of the game go down, is that he might have murdered the wyches with the Belial sqaud, then he would have to footslog through terrain, to get to the aegis line where the fire dragons and the support batteries were. they in turn would have been shooting at the Belial squad to eliminate or at least attempt to slow them down. the ravager would have turned and fired on Belial as well.
Lelith and her farseer squad would have consolidated further down the table, then made a beeline for the base of the hill where he had a tac squad and a dreadnaught. singing spears ftw against the dreadnaught, and then a terrain move up the hill in order to charge the tac squad at first opportunity.

the blasterborns were already firing on Belials squad and would have kept doing so, along with their venom, the surviving venom from the wyches was peppering the attack bike, and one squad of kabs was peppering the second tac squad holding an objective. the other kab squad would have moved up to the forest in order to claim that objective, hopefully being close enough to pepper more shots into the attack bike and landspeeder. last but not least guardian jetbikes would have turbo'd away from Belial who was on thier side of the table, and turbo'd again in order to try and contest another objective. all in all Dark Eldar victory with three objectives, linebreaker and slay the warlord. him losing with only one objective, and first blood.

i'm going to try this list again, no doubt about it, hopefully this time with a full game and not just two turns and a lot of speculation.

now my memory on the DA codex is fuzzy, but I know bluebook psychic hoods only increase their deny the witch roll, as well as allowing him to use it for other squads around him. Blessings cant be stopped by psychic hoods anymore, as you dont target one of their squads (which activates a deny the witch roll). The only anti-psychic things that stop blessing casting like that is SW runeswords, shadow of the warp, and runes of warding.

Edit: Also Sharnets are -1 A for every model in base contact... not -1 WS, although yes, they are culmative

Yeah, as SR posted, shardnets are cumulative. So if someone had 3 attacks and you had 2 shardnets in contact with him, they'd only get 1 attack. Further, it effects all units in base contact, so the effect can spread to multiple units/models. I actually think that sending those wyches into Belial's unit was a good idea. They wouldn't win, but with their shardnets, they'd tarpit the hell out of him, and might actually survive till the end of the game, effectively making his 500 point scoring termie/HQ unit useless. That is actually the specific use for those shardnet wyches that I had intended for them when I put them in the list. Bravo for making good decisions.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Blessings cant be stopped by psychic hoods anymore, as you dont target one of their squads (which activates a deny the witch roll).

Actually, I'm not so sure about that SR. I specifically looked up the rules in the new DA codex. They use the psychic hood rules out of the new 6th ed Rulebook. And the rules in the rulebook specifically say, "Each time a unit/model is targeted by an enemy psychic power and is within 6" of a friendly model with a psychic hood, the wearer of the hood can attempt to deny the witch in their stead, as if he were a part of that unit."

The problem is, it doesn't specify that the unit you're rolling the DtW roll for has to be a friendly unit. This ambiguity makes it debatable, while I certainly agree with you that this was likely not the intent.


EDIT: Next go-round with the list, I might make a cheat-sheet of the abilities you have for particular units. Lelith, for example, has a lot of things to remember to get the most use out of her. Let's see, she has, "Plasma grenades, Shardnet effect, 4++/3++ save, Ignores Armor, Extra Attacks rules, and so on". When you add the effects of conceal, enhance, and invisibility to her, it only compounds the issue, adding a 2+ cover save, +1WS and Init, and odd rules for when she enters CC, denying the enemy counter-charge, and lowering their WS to 1. I like to make a quick-reference sheet for the rules debates I know are going to come up, citing the pertinent rules all in one convenient place, along with page numbers in case my opponent would like to look it up. Helps speed things along. If you play with several different people, it's also a good idea to make notes as rules debates come up, noting to add any debated rules to your quick reference sheet for that particular list.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Further, it effects all units in base contact, so the effect can spread to multiple units/models.

This is incorrect. As the rules for the shardnet impaler state "enemy model in base contact with the wielder", so it does not affect all units in base contact merely all models in base contact.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

There is no ambiguity, the key part of that sentence is:

Quote :

within 6" of a friendly model with a psychic hood.

For example a farseer casts a blessing on a beast unit, there is an enemy librarian within 6", is he a friendly model with a psychic hood? No he is not. Therefore the librarian cannot attempt to deny the witch.

Mushkilla wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Further, it effects all units in base contact, so the effect can spread to multiple units/models.

This is incorrect. As the rules for the shardnet impaler state "enemy model in base contact with the wielder", so it does not affect all units in base contact merely all models in base contact.

Yeah, mistyped. That is what I meant, sorry for the confusion. Every model in base contact with a shardnet loses 1 attack. Models in base contact with more than 1, lose a number of attacks equal to the number of shardnets, to a minimum of 1.

Mushkilla wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

There is no ambiguity, the key part of that sentence is:

Quote :

within 6" of a friendly model with a psychic hood.

For example a farseer casts a blessing on a beast unit, there is an enemy librarian within 6", is he a friendly model with a psychic hood? No he is not. Therefore the librarian cannot attempt to deny the witch.

The ambiguity that I was speaking of is when the controlling player of the hood says "Well, that model IS friendly to me, so I can take the roll."

I don't disagree with you. Just pointing out that some people may consider it ambiguous and/or misinterpret it.