Shredder experiences?

Please post any personal experiences around the mentioned weapon as I am wondering whether to put them on a unit of trueborn to take out tough infantry.

I've found them to be surprisingly effective, but they aren't good at taking on heavy infantry, and I usually find that I want more AT rather than more AI.

I forgot that they don't have an AP value, but that makes them better at taking out tanks with 6th edition than before the new rules, when AP- was -1 on the vehicle damage table. They are also a cheap alternative to blasters and I think that they look cool as well as having good stats.

There was a bit of a discussion about them already back in December, see if that helps you:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t5082-does-anybody-use-shredders

Cheers.

short answer... dont...

long answer. In 5th when the book came out, I tried them out in gunboat units instead of the costly blaster. I found that on average I got atleast two hits, which with its AP- normally worked out to be as good if not alittle better than a splinter rifle w/ splinter racks. So I did not see the point of paying 5 points for a weapon that barely did better than the one it replaced.

As for trueborn at the time, it turned out completely useless due to its short range, and the ability to just get rapidfired or assaulted after you did almost no damage.

This edition none of what I have said above has changed. The only thing new is that against a tank, you get full damage even if the blast hits it. Which if you really are feeling you lack some S6 AT capacity, we have access to CWE, which is all about the spamming of S6... There is no need for that weapon in this dex, ever...

I've been experimenting with supplementing the 2 Shard Cannons with a Splinter Carbine on my trueborn.

It consistently puts out 3 shots at 18 inches, and again I typically wound with 2 of those. It costs the same as a Shredder, but has a greater range and can be snapfired if I need to move a bit faster.

IMHO The Shredder in its current form is useless. On venom with trueborn you are better off taking a shard carbine or Blaster if you have the points. On a Raider, Splinter Racks and extra bodies with Splinter rifles are a better option than both.

I've kind of enjoyed them with small Trueborn units. Been thinking about using them with Scourges.

For 56 you can get 12 splinter cannon shots, but less shots if you move.
For 68 you can get 12 mobile shard carbine shots or 4 shredders.

Against most targets, you'll get two or more turns of shooting with either of the splinter shots. In most cases, the shredder squad will get killed the turn after it shoots.

So, the question becomes, do 4 str 6 blasts deal more damage than 12 splinter shots over the course of two turns?

Over two turns our splinter fire is likely to do 2.667 wounds to marines. Assuming you hit an average of two models per small blast fired the shredder does just slightly less damage to marines. Against terminators shredders deal more damage than two turns of splinter fire, ditto for anything with a 4+ or worse save.

So, to get maximum value you need to fire your shredders in situations where the enemy is as grouped together as possible. Like after blowing up a vehicle, or when deepstriking in. In such cases, it isn't unlikely to assume three hits per blast, which is then better than three turns of splinter fire.

Also, 6" + 6" + 12" isn't that bad for range. Not great, but not bad either. Think of them like anti-infantry fire dragons.

tl;dr: shredders... not actually that bad as a counter-punch.

Unless a blast weapon has an AP value for us, I would never take it. As stated above we do not snapfire blast weapons. However, even with all the shots I get from 3 carbines and 2 cannons that I put on a venom I generally only get 3-4 shots go through on over watch. 2 of which actually go through, in which case, when playing space marines, the armor save is promptly made. And no I don't over watch with my vehicle, I know that sentence sounded a little confusing. So over watch is kind of useless anyway, however the ability to have 6 to 4 shots that are somewhat reliable seems worthwhile over a template. And that pretty much negates the ability to bring whatever squad you have it in on a transport. So no AP, blast, short range, ability to scatter, all amounts to a completely useless weapon. We are not a blast using army. Even our razor wing is useless against high toughness armies. We are a overwhelming shooty / bum rush with overwhelming force CQC army. No room for silly blast weapons. I've almost given up on our flyer as well. Besides the dark lances its kinda somewhat... Meh. Haven't tried the void raven yet though.

i use them in small 5 man warrior squads, they work as well as can be expected for their point cost.

not the best option, but if your trying to save a few points or have some to spare why not.

sgb69 wrote:

I've kind of enjoyed them with small Trueborn units. Been thinking about using them with Scourges.

For 56 you can get 12 splinter cannon shots, but less shots if you move.
For 68 you can get 12 mobile shard carbine shots or 4 shredders.

Against most targets, you'll get two or more turns of shooting with either of the splinter shots. In most cases, the shredder squad will get killed the turn after it shoots.

So, the question becomes, do 4 str 6 blasts deal more damage than 12 splinter shots over the course of two turns?

Over two turns our splinter fire is likely to do 2.667 wounds to marines. Assuming you hit an average of two models per small blast fired the shredder does just slightly less damage to marines. Against terminators shredders deal more damage than two turns of splinter fire, ditto for anything with a 4+ or worse save.

So, to get maximum value you need to fire your shredders in situations where the enemy is as grouped together as possible. Like after blowing up a vehicle, or when deepstriking in. In such cases, it isn't unlikely to assume three hits per blast, which is then better than three turns of splinter fire.

Also, 6" + 6" + 12" isn't that bad for range. Not great, but not bad either. Think of them like anti-infantry fire dragons.

tl;dr: shredders... not actually that bad as a counter-punch.

The problem with your calculations is that you've assumed all your shots actually hit. With 2d6-4 scatter on two thirds of your shots that is very unlikely indeed.

Personally I wouldn't touch Shredders with a rusty Hellglaive. Too short-ranged, too unreliable and just not worth it IMO.

Assuming 8 hits total from 4 small blasts doesn't seem too far-fetched if you go after clumped up targets.

That said, another flaw is that it's entirely likely that you'll get to shoot for three turns or more with those splinter cannon teams. At a wide variety of targets across the board.

I had one scatter onto my venom once and score a glancing hit...

It was after deep striking, and my vehicle got a bit too close to the target

Against infantry heavy guard, for example, they can be really effective though, especially when you're using disordered charge tactics to ensure you won't entirely wipe out your enemy until the end of their turn. With good strategic placement of models,2 units of 10 warriors with a Spilntercannon/Shredder each can engage 2/3 units of guardsmen each. The trick, of course, is to wipe out most of your primary target with the 'cannon/shredder/Sybarite's pistol whilst being in position to commit most of your models to secondary targets. If you 'overlap' your targets, ie. have as many of your units simultaneously engaged with as many units as possible at the same time, the odds are very much in your favour that one of those 4-6 infantry squads will somehow pass their morale test at the end of your assault phase, meaning that as every squad of Kabalites has at least one model engaged with this particularly heroic squad they are safe from shooting in your opponents turn. Yes, this tactic is very army specific, with only really Guard and equivalent being viable victims of it, plus you do need to be employing 'raider-rush' tactics (in the case I recall I had 7 Warrior Units up in his face turn 1) however, the shredders were really useful to ensure the primary target squad was all but eliminated as a fighting force allowing me to only send one or two warriors in as a 'token' engagement and focus my assault on the other units. This enabled me to slaughter my way through 4 infantry squads and 2 heavy weapon teams in 2 assault phases, practically winning the game by turn 3.

I have used them in smaler 5 man squads. They worrked great against things that DS or the old Daemons. i haven't used them in a few months, but they are not bad by any means, its just the Blaster gives better utility I believe. Str 6 Blast and 2+ poison is prety damn good. The really only bad thing is the 12'' range, but no gun has it all right?

I think some Trueborn might be ok with them, but how mych poison do you need? I would rather stay at range and fire. with 4 Shredders though, we have a mini Thunderfire Cannon squad runnning around. Just pray you kill whatever your firing at because if something is left, those guys will die.

Am I missing something? Where does 2+ poison come from?

If it had 2+ poison I would pay the same points for it as you do for a blaster!

My experience is pretty limited but in one game, back in 5th, against another DE player my squad of Warriors was down to two - the Shredder and Splinter Cannon - and the Shredder still managed to destroy my opponent's Raider. It was probably the most valuable thing anyone in my army achieved (I got tabled that game).

Of course, I'm not saying this is typical, but I do like the chance to do something about an AV10/11 transport, without needing to shell out for a Blaster.

Back aboit 8 months or so ago, I took a squad of trueborn with 4 shredders & 1 splinter cannon in a venom with dual splinter cannons. destroyed 1.5 huge units of ork boyz. the venom then got assaulted by the remaining .5 unit. of boyz and died horribly. i think they did their job though.

I seem to recall trying it a few times, but never once being impressed.

- It has half the range of the standard weapons, so you lose a shot until you get close.

- It's a small template, so can't hit many models - and even fewer if your opponent spreads out.

- With that in mind, it's not particularly impressive even when it does hit.

- It has no AP value, and competes with a blaster.

- If it scatters back, it has high enough strength to threaten your vehicles.

If it was 24", I'd probably give it a try. Likewise, if it was a flamer instead (even if it lost a point of strength), I'd probably use it. But, as it stands, it doesn't really feel like an upgrade.