1500 vs Blood Angels

I have a big game on Monday vs a very experienced Blood Angels player and would appreciate any feedback on this tentative list:

We have a gentleman's agreement to not use any fliers.

Essentially there will be pain token swapping at the start so that the Incubi/Archon and the 3 Wracks/6 Grots will each have 2 pain tokens.

If he goes first, my plan is to set up to control his deep strike capability. If I go first, the goal will be to get into his face Turn 1 and use the Tantalus with Grotesques as a distraction/ to maneuver my Incubi/Archon into position to control his assault ability.

I am light on troops, but I think In this case it's best to go for the full wipe by hitting hard and fast.

+++ Sanguine Feast 1500 2 (1498pts) +++
+ HQ + (385pts)

* Archon (175pts)
Combat Drugs, Huskblade, Kabalite Armour, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Plasma Grenades, Shadow Field, Soul-trap, Venom Blade

* Haemonculus (210pts)
* Haemonculus
Liquifier Gun, Power Axe, Splinter Pistol
* Haemonculus
Liquifier Gun, Power Axe, Splinter Pistol
* Haemonculus
Liquifier Gun, Power Axe, Splinter Pistol


+ Elites + (428pts)

* Grotesques (245pts)
6x Grotesque, Liquifier Gun
* Aberration
Scissorhand


* Incubi (183pts)
4x Incubus
* Klaivex
Onslaught
* Venom
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon


+ Troops + (230pts)

* Kabalite Warriors (115pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 5x Kabalite Warrior
* Raider
Dark Lance, Night Shields

* Kabalite Warriors (115pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 5x Kabalite Warrior
* Raider
Dark Lance, Night Shields


+ Heavy Support + (455pts)

* Ravager (115pts)
Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Disintegrator Cannon, Night Shields

* Ravager (115pts)
Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Disintegrator Cannon, Night Shields

* Tantalus (225pts)
Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Night Shields, Pulse-Disintegrators x2, Scythevanes

From what I understand his list is extremely missile launcher heavy, so am rethinking the Nightshields...

Saying you are light on troops is an understatement I would at least double the amount you have now. I would drop the Klaivex. The extra attack is not worth the cost. I actually think the incubi are out of place. It would be better to put a haemie and your archon in the tantalus with the grotesques. That frees up more points for another gun boat. I would also increase the warriors in the raiders to ten per transport. When the raiders blow you could easily lose more than half of them.

I agree with you on dropping the night shields. I have found them to be pretty useless. You get 60 extra points from that.

Also I don't think the power axes are going to do the haemonculi any good. Because they strike second they are likely to die before they can even attack. I'd give em a good old venom blade and keep the liquifier.

Hope that helps a bit

Are you using the tantulus to transport the grotesques, if so let me know how that works out for you. You are definitely lacking scoring units, that will be your downfall. I would get rid of the haemonculi aside from the one that will be babysitting the grotesques. Grotesques in the tantulus is a gigantic point sinking distraction, I would leave it at home until you play a bigger game.

That's one hell of a grotstar but it is a little much at this level unless its your only CQC element. I have been playing troop light myself and it is a viable option if you bring enough killy units to win through secondary objectives and push him off his. In this list though I don't think you saturate enough threats to pull it off with only 4 shooting units. Of course objective placement, his list and deployment, and your target priority all factor into this. Here's a couple ideas:

Lose 3 of those hqs or at least 2 haemies and use the pts to get some 95 pt scoring venoms.

Make the grots your only combat unit and bring more msu shooters. otherwise I would lose the tantalus and reduce their size/cost. Its very rare for a 4 man squad to get wiped let alone 6. Also a raider is just so efficient at delivery for its cost i don't see the extra pts as worthwhile just for more capacity. Either way make the scissors into a vb.

Incubi rock against BAs but I echo the sentiment to lose the klaivex. In addition to the grot suggestions above I would increase the incubi squad Suze and put them in a raider (pain token here haemie in grots).

Give the warriors venoms or increase their unit size. I'm a fan of the former.

Lastly considerations:
I would deploy all your objectives close together in cover so your grots decide the game (if u choose to keep them). I would hesitate to put them too far his direction though in case their ride gets wasted early. Prioritize the devs high obviously and be considering what happens if mephiston shows up.. That 500 pt star just went poof.

I agree with brom, also has your opponent ever played against a tantulus. Most people who have never played against them will soak every piece of firepower they have in it because it looks so deadly. Is your opponent taking terminators, if so your tantulus will obliterate them, but if not I would stick to heavy poison firepower. I just feel in a 1500 points game you are placing a lot of points on the grots, I play nothing but coven style dark eldar style coven lists and I love the idea of tantulus carrying grots into a sea of destruction, but I'm not sure it is worth it.

Here are 2 more options I'm playing around with:

Urien's Mardi Gras Parade Float of Doom
+ HQ + (365pts)
* Archon (175pts)
(Fleet, Independent Character, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Combat Drugs, Huskblade, Kabalite Armour, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Plasma Grenades, Shadow Field, Soul-trap, Venom Blade


* Urien Rakarth (190pts)
(Father of Pain, Independent Character, Meld the Flesh, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Casket of Flensing, Clone Field, Gnarlskin, Ichor Gauntlet

+ Elites + (435pts)

* Grotesques (305pts)
(Altered Physique, Berserk Rampage, Bulky, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Close Combat Weapon, Gnarlskin, Liquifier Gun
* Aberration
Venom Blade
* 7x Grotesque
7x Master Haemonculus Upgrade

* Kabalite Trueborn (130pts)
* 3x Kabalite Trueborn
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
3x Haywire Grenades (Haywire), 3x Plasma Grenades, 2x Splinter Cannon, Splinter Rifle
* Venom
(Night Vision)
Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

+ Troops + (265pts)

* Kabalite Warriors (110pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 5x Kabalite Warrior)
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
5x Splinter Rifle
* Raider
(Night Vision)
Dark Lance, Shock Prow

* Kabalite Warriors (110pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 5x Kabalite Warrior
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
5x Splinter Rifle
* Raider
(Night Vision)
Dark Lance, Shock Prow

* Kabalite Warriors (45pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 5x Kabalite Warrior
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
5x Splinter Rifle


+ Heavy Support + (435pts)

* Talos Pain Engine (105pts)
(Fearless, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Random Attacks)
Armoured Carapace, Splinter Cannon, Twin-linked Liquifier Gun

* Talos Pain Engine (105pts)
(Fearless, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Random Attacks)
Armoured Carapace, Splinter Cannon, Twin-linked Liquifier Gun

* Tantalus (225pts)
(Aerial Assault, Deep Strike, Night Vision)
Enhanced Aethersails, Flickerfield, Night Shields, Pulse-Disintegrators x2, Scythevanes


Triple Talos Dance Party

+ HQ + (370pts)

* Archon (195pts)
(Fleet, Independent Character, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Blaster, Combat Drugs, Ghostplate Armour, Huskblade, Kabalite Armour, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Plasma Grenades, Shadow Field, Soul-trap


* Haemonculus (175pts)
* Haemonculus (70pts)
(Altered Physique, Independent Character, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Gnarlskin, Liquifier Gun, Power Axe, Splinter Pistol
* Haemonculus (105pts)
(Altered Physique, Independent Character, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Gnarlskin, Liquifier Gun, Power Axe, Splinter Pistol, Webway Portal


+ Elites + (653pts)

* Grotesques (235pts)
(Altered Physique, Berserk Rampage, Bulky, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Close Combat Weapon, Gnarlskin, 4x Grotesque, Liquifier Gun
* Aberration
Venom Blade
* Raider
(Night Vision)
Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails, Shock Prow


* Grotesques (235pts)
(Altered Physique, Berserk Rampage, Bulky, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Close Combat Weapon, Gnarlskin, 4x Grotesque, Liquifier Gun
* Aberration
Venom Blade
* Raider
(Night Vision)
Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails, Shock Prow


* Kabalite Trueborn (183pts)
Kabalite Armour, Splinter Rifle
* 4x Kabalite Trueborn
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
4x Blaster
* Venom
(Night Vision)
Flickerfield, Night Shields, Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon


+ Troops + (162pts)

* Kabalite Warriors (54pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 6x Kabalite Warrior
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
6x Splinter Rifle


* Kabalite Warriors (54pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 6x Kabalite Warrior
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
6x Splinter Rifle


* Kabalite Warriors (54pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 6x Kabalite Warrior
(Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
6x Splinter Rifle


+ Heavy Support + (315pts) (Held in Reserve to come out of the Webway Portal)

* Talos Pain Engine (105pts)
(Fearless, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Random Attacks)
Armoured Carapace, Splinter Cannon, Twin-linked Liquifier Gun

* Talos Pain Engine (105pts)
(Fearless, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Random Attacks)
Armoured Carapace, Splinter Cannon, Twin-linked Liquifier Gun

* Talos Pain Engine (105pts)
(Fearless, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Random Attacks)
Armoured Carapace, Splinter Cannon, Twin-linked Liquifier Gun

Well this is what I wound up running:

+ HQ + (375pts)
* Archon (185pts)
(Fleet, Independent Character, Night Vision, Power from Pain)
Blaster, Combat Drugs, Huskblade, Kabalite Armour, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Plasma Grenades, Shadow Field, Soul-trap

* Urien Rakarth (190pts)

+ Elites + (465pts)
* Grotesques (255pts)
* Aberration
Venom Blade
* 4x Grotesque (160pts)
4x Master Haemonculus Upgrade, Liquifier Gun
* Raider (70pts)
Disintegrator Cannon, Enhanced Aethersails, Shock Prow


* Kabalite Trueborn (210pts)
* 5x Kabalite Trueborn (125pts)
3x Blaster, 2x Splinter Cannon
* Raider (85pts)
Dark Lance, Flickerfield, Night Shields, Shock Prow


+ Troops + (350pts)

2x * Kabalite Warriors (200pts)
Kabalite Armour
* 10x Kabalite Warrior
Splinter Cannon

* Wyches (150pts)
* Hekatrix
Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade
* Venom 2x Splinter
* 5x Wych (Haywire)

+ Heavy Support + (310pts)
1x Cronos Parasite Engine (100pts)
2x Talos Pain Engine (210pts)

I was tabled at the end of turn 4.

His list had 13 Missile Launches and 6 Attack Bikes with Multimeltas. 2 Assault Squads with Power axes and hand flamers. Librarian and Sanguinary Priest.

He won initiative and went first. Mission was Scouring and it was Dawn of War. No Night Fighting and I failed to seize the Initiative.

I set up as best I could, but he was able to hit everthing on turn one. Pens on all my vehicles blowing up the Venom (Killed 3 Wychs), Weapon Destroyed on Urien's Boat, and a Stunned result on the Archon's Boat. The Chronos bit it, and one of the Talos took 2 wounds, as did 5 assorted kabalites.

My Turn I was able to kill three of his bikes. Using the Aether Sails I was able to get Urien's Wracks up close.

Round 2 he blew up Urien's Boat, and the Archon's Raider, Finished off the first Talos and put 2 more wounds on the 2nd. The 4 Trueborn were slain, as were 6 more Kabalites. He assaulted Urien and was able to kill all his grotesques. Urien failed to hit.

My turn I killed 2 more of his bikes with my Archon and his surviving Trueborn. Urien Killed 2 Assault Marines before being carved apart.

Round 3 he was able to kill the final Talos. His Assault marines moved up. Archon took all of their fire but his Shadow fileld held like a champ. final 2 trueborn died.

My turn we shot down another Bike, and took out a few more assault marines. Archon assaulted a squad of 5 assault marines, wiping them with his Husk Blade (like a boss).

Round 4, he shot and assaulted my remaining Kabalites and Wychs wiping them. Archon's shield held leaving him the only unit on my side.

My turn, the Archon Assaulted the remaining Assault Squad and was ashed by their Hand Flamers.


Lesson of the day: Don't Bring Poison to a Missle fight...

It doesnt look like you brought much poison, just a couple deathstar point sinks and 1 venom. Also why all the focus on those bikes or was that all you could reach maybe?

Good thing the game ended though or else your archon might have won it for you

I had 2 Splinter Cannons on the Kabalites, 2 on the Trueborn and 2 with the Talos and 2 on the Venom. I maybe could have fielded 2 more raiders, or Ravagers in Place of the Talos/Chronos. But I actually think the Talos lasted longer than they would have.

The Bikes were all I could reach for the most part. He kept the Missile Launches back out of reach. With the advancing bikes and the Assault Squad those were all I could really target.

That first round just destroyed my mobility and long range for the most part.

Yikes that sounded quite horrible, I definitely think you sunk to many points in your HQ choices Urien is 190, and then you stick an archon that costs as much as a blasterborn squad to boot. My personal favorite loadout for my heavy support slots are 2 Talos with 1 ravager. From the sounds of things a venom spammed army would have dismantled your opponent. Did he take any armour detachment.

Quote :

I had 2 Splinter Cannons on the Kabalites, 2 on the Trueborn and 2 with the Talos and 2 on the Venom. I maybe could have fielded 2 more raiders, or Ravagers in Place of the Talos/Chronos. But I actually think the Talos lasted longer than they would have.

Fair enough, maybe its just where the SC's are located which led me to feel your army is short on poison. Its actually just short on poison with mobility. The 2 full warrior squads are more reminiscent of tac squad design.
The taloi otoh would of been great in the absence of missiles, unfortunately they are just so easily dealt with when said weapons are around. My space wolves and double wing army's both regulalry field upwards of 14 missiles to as many as 24. Its a bad time to be a nids player around here haha.

Quote :

The Bikes were all I could reach for the most part. He kept the Missile Launches back out of reach. With the advancing bikes and the Assault Squad those were all I could really target.

That first round just destroyed my mobility and long range for the most part.

Thats what I was picturing. This is also where I think putting those warriors into transports might have helped out for more redundancy against such an alpha strike and just for more saturation and mobility with your firepower.



Do you plan on a rematch and if so will he allow you the chance to face the same list again? If so a few tweaks here and there and I feel you (DE) have all the tools to beat his list. BAs are an old nemesis of mine and the battles are usually mine to lose rather than theirs to win, IMO of course.

I would start by losing Urien and putting your archon with those grots and downgrading some of his and their equipment upgrades. Grots are tough but its the archon that really protects them from true assault units and boosts them into crazy tough with LO,S and 2++. This change also makes them a great counter to mephiston who will otherwise wreck your entire army and flatten even a 10 man grot squad.

Anyway just some friendly ideas.

Tough game. Every now and then a player's first turn is so good that the other player starts and stays on their back foot the entire game. When it happens you just have to shrug your shoulders, hope for some extraordinary luck with the dice and play on like a good sport.

Brom wrote:

Quote :

I had 2 Splinter Cannons on the Kabalites, 2 on the Trueborn and 2 with the Talos and 2 on the Venom. I maybe could have fielded 2 more raiders, or Ravagers in Place of the Talos/Chronos. But I actually think the Talos lasted longer than they would have.

Fair enough, maybe its just where the SC's are located which led me to feel your army is short on poison. Its actually just short on poison with mobility. The 2 full warrior squads are more reminiscent of tac squad design.
The taloi otoh would of been great in the absence of missiles, unfortunately they are just so easily dealt with when said weapons are around. My space wolves and double wing army's both regulalry field upwards of 14 missiles to as many as 24. Its a bad time to be a nids player around here haha.

Quote :

The Bikes were all I could reach for the most part. He kept the Missile Launches back out of reach. With the advancing bikes and the Assault Squad those were all I could really target.

That first round just destroyed my mobility and long range for the most part.

Thats what I was picturing. This is also where I think putting those warriors into transports might have helped out for more redundancy against such an alpha strike and just for more saturation and mobility with your firepower.



Do you plan on a rematch and if so will he allow you the chance to face the same list again? If so a few tweaks here and there and I feel you (DE) have all the tools to beat his list. BAs are an old nemesis of mine and the battles are usually mine to lose rather than theirs to win, IMO of course.

I would start by losing Urien and putting your archon with those grots and downgrading some of his and their equipment upgrades. Grots are tough but its the archon that really protects them from true assault units and boosts them into crazy tough with LO,S and 2++. This change also makes them a great counter to mephiston who will otherwise wreck your entire army and flatten even a 10 man grot squad.

Anyway just some friendly ideas.

I forgot to mention this, but urien is only useful in a coven list, considering that you took him in an army that doesn't get any of the affects of his special rule. The Talos and chronos are not affected by the special rules either, which makes me scratch my head as to why you decided to field him. Urien's greatest asset is powering up coven units with pain tokens.

I took Urien because I wanted to experiment with him and his Strength Bonus on the Grots.

I went into this game as an experiment. Our Local Meta is very different than the Norm and very few people play any Marine Armies.

I never play to lose, but actually losing this game puts me in a better position in the rankings vs opponents that I know I can steamroll and it buys me more time to analyze the top 2 players (I'm 3rd now having only lost an official game to the BA player).

I agree that more Venoms would have been competitive. Next time I face him I think I'm going to leave the Grots at home and maybe take Sathonyx and sit him behind an Aegis with an Icarus/Quadcannon. Potentially also put together my Allied Corsair detachment featuring a Corsair Princess w Missile Launchers, so I can nuke his clustered Missile Launchers from Orbit and via my Warp Hunter's D Cannons. It's looking like the Eldar Codex will release by then, so that may provide other options as well.