Mantle of the Laughing God vs. Fire On My Target

Tony Spectacular wrote:

No, I do understand all of your points. But what of my example where I either passed or failed all of my rolls? If I roll all 1s, and then reroll them all and save them all, would I then be forced to reroll all of my successful saves, as I have not yet rerolled successes? I feel as though that's rerolling a reroll, but according to the logic above rerolling success and rerolling failure are two different rerolls.

It might help if you think of the actual, physical dice rather than the rolls that are being made.

Let's take a look at a specific example. An IG squad is using Fire on my Target (FomT) against an Eldar Autarch on a jetbike with Mantle of the Laughing God. They score 6 wounds and the Autarch therefore is required to make 6 saves. He rolls 6 dice and passes all of them.

His special rule of being allowed to reroll failed cover saves has no effect as there are no failed cover saves.

The FomT rule requires successful cover saves to be rerolled and therefore the Autarch player picks up all 6 dice and rerolls them. This results in 5 passes and a fail. His special rule allows him to reroll failed cover saves but that particular die has already been rerolled and nothing in either rule allows the player to ignore page 5 of the BRB which says "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll".

The final result is that he passes 5 saves and fails 1.

In the reverse situation where the Autarch fails all 6 initial saves and then uses his own ability to reroll them would then prevent the IG player using his rule as all the dice have already been rerolled before there are any successful cover saves to trigger FomT.

Tony Spectacular wrote:

If I roll all 1s, and then reroll them all and save them all, would I then be forced to reroll all of my successful saves, as I have not yet rerolled successes? I feel as though that's rerolling a reroll, but according to the logic above rerolling success and rerolling failure are two different rerolls.

You keep misinterpreting what people are trying to explain to you. The only person who wants to re-roll a dice twice in this argument is you Tony. In my explanation (that Count did a very clear example of) a dice only ever gets re-rolled once, either by the by the Mantle or fire on my target, but not both.

I hope the Counts example has made it clearer.

Here are some more just in case:

EXAMPLE A

First roll (all fails)
1, 1, 1, 1
Re-roll from Mantle
2, 3 , 4, 5

EXAMPLE B

First roll (all passes)
2, 3, 5, 6
Re-roll from FOMT
1, 2, 4, 4

EXAMPLE C

First roll (a mixture of fails and passes)
1, 1 , 3, 4
Re-roll from FOMT and Mantle
3, 4, 5, 6

In all the three examples above the first roll is irrelevant. Regardless of the results you re-roll all the dice. Meaning at the end of the day, whether you re-roll all the dice once, or just roll the saves once without re-rolling anything it's the same thing statistically. Effectively meaning the abilities cancel each other out.

I think Count Adhemar explained it very clearly, and the bottom line to my mind is that both players lose the effectiveness of their special rules to an extent, because any saves you fail initially and reroll due to the mantle cannot be re-rolled again due to Fire on my Target, and any passed saves that you reroll due to Fire on my Target cannot be rerolled if they then fail due to the mantle, as in both instances the save has been rerolled once already. Statistically it probably affects the mantle rerolls worse than the fire on my target, but that's just the way it goes unfortunately.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I think Count Adhemar explained it very clearly, and the bottom line to my mind is that both players lose the effectiveness of their special rules to an extent, because any saves you fail initially and reroll due to the mantle cannot be re-rolled again due to Fire on my Target, and any passed saves that you reroll due to Fire on my Target cannot be rerolled if they then fail due to the mantle, as in both instances the save has been rerolled once already. Statistically it probably affects the mantle rerolls worse than the fire on my target, but that's just the way it goes unfortunately.

Since its easier to pass a 2+ save than to fail it, making your opponent reroll successful saves is much more powerful.

Like I said before mathematically they cancel each other out because of the nature of only being able to re-roll a dice once. So just don't re-roll anything and you will be fine. If your superstitious re-roll the first batch of dice

Fair enough. The cancellation does indeed benefit the Guard player significantly, but I suppose that's the way it goes sometimes. Thanks for all of your input.