A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

Is that 1850 Sean? (this is Luke btw) What's the motivation for the bastion? Guarenteed LoS blocker for jetbikes that come on too early and/or beasts/spiders against T1 shooting/give them something to dance around with the possibility of sticking the warriors in it?

I played around with the Crimson hunter (and a voidraven) for a while and took them to NOVA. I found them ok (and def fun) but a bit too random and fragile for me, and they always seemed to let me down when I needed something good from them (either staying out until 4 or getting punked by something random). What's your thinking behind that one? FMC spam?

Have you been DSing the spiders or starting them on the board more? DSing is probably my default but I only have one squad (since I actually play DE rather than pretend to    ), but if there's decent LoS blocking for them to jump behind they're great to have T1.

Also Baron said to tell Vect that he's a loser (but he thinks him and K-mart make a cute couple).

Welcome Ordosean! I'm surprised and honored that you would follow our silly little blog, but am happy that you do!  

Your list looks solid and I like the different characters and the options they bring. The only thing I question is the effectiveness of the hunter.  From what I've seen/heard its hit or miss.  Perhaps, you could consider some cheaper/similar alternatives such as:

-Dark Reapers: lots of missile launchers, you could upgrade to flakk and I think one of the more important ones is the ability for the exarch to get precision shot on a 5+ if you take the proper power. With IG special characters making a huge comeback and the general need to snipe models, this could be very useful. This also gives you more options for how to deploy your ICs. Eldrad could really boost the crap out of this unit...ignore cover, rerolls to hit...could blow wave serpents, flyers, etc away.

-Truborn with lances...super cheap...so cheap you could afford to take another unit or even an upgrade for the bastion such as a quad gun or icarus lascannon. Or if you wanted to be crazy, you could take a minimum squad of repears and a squad of truborn with lances.

I just feel 160pts for the flyer is a lot for something so fragile.

Yeah the hunter is really only there for FMC demons with a helldrake.

The problem is the helldrake removes most of the other options I have to kill it rather quickly, since there really isnt any part of the board it cant reach with its flamer the turn it arrives, 36" move, 12" torrent 8" template. Even inside the bastion he can roast d6 spyders.

And on top of that he can probably maneuver the drake to either keep safe from my limited range stuff.

But the crimson hunter has good range, skyfire since is is a flyer, and good ap to help boost those damage rolls that get through the invul. And with vector dancer its safe on the board edge from the helldrake even if it comes on early. And then once the drake is dead anything else it does putting wounds on flying dp's is just gravy.

Its basically a matchup thing. Im ok playing points down with the hunter doing nothing against other things, because the rest of the list just dominates them. But FMC demons annoy me, mainly due to the fact that they dont have to play the game, and can constantly fly off the board and hide... obviously it was an exacerbated situation when playing them in big guns never tire.

As far as the bastion luke... I duno. I think Im taking it for all the reasons you mentioned, also because some tournaments lately have had piss poor terrain, so anything I can bring has to help a bit. And the list is 1850 yeah.

I usually deep strike one spyder always, and start one on the board most of the time.

Ill probably go back to de main if that rumor of only 25% allies is true for the new edition type thing. Because Vect and the beasts are more then 25% of 1850, but eldrad, 2 units of bikes and one unit of spyders fits. I mean if drahzar could join any unit like the rest of the phoenix lords, and had karandras stats lol, then I wouldnt have this problem. But I like me some beatstick characters.

And Vect says if baron doesnt watch his mouth his boyfriend Karandras will headbutt him.(insta death since mandiblaster is str 6)  

Well, my thread so another list you have to put with. I'll provide the link to GW's free download first.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Dred_Mob.pdf
I love Buzzgob. I love stompas and dreads. How can I resist making a list?

So I was discussing with a friend how Orks can counter the current meta - Knights, IG tanks, White Scars, Beastpack, etc. Well here is a list that really puts out the hurt.  

- Da Big Buzz Orks -

HQ: Big Boss Buzzgob 100
w/ Big Mek Stompa; 3 Big Shoota; Deff kannon w/ Supa-gatler 3 Supa-rokkits; Twin-linked Big Shoota; Mega-choppa 300

Elites: 3x 2 Burna Boyz; 3 Meks; Big Shootas 225

Troop: Deffdread;  Armour Plates; Grot Rigger; Dreadnought CCW x2; Dreadnought CCW 130
Troop: 3x 23 Spanna Boyz; Shootas; Mek; Burna 474
Troop: 10 Gretchin Scavenger Mob, Runtherder; Grot Prod 55

2x Dakkajets; Fighta Ace; Extra Supra Shoota; 260

Mega-Dread; 2 Rippa Klaws; 2 Kustom Mega-balsta; Mega-charga 210

Bastion; Comms Relay 95

(1850)

The list puts out a ton of shots a turn from the Stompa and Shoota boys ( don't be fooled even with BS 2 that is a lot of shots) and will rip you apart in cc with the Dreads and Stompa. It is deceptively easy to overlook what is going to hurt on any given turn if you play it right. Stompas can be taken out no doubt but this one has 6 lootas, the boss and nine meks. Good luck. Defense against flyers is simple ... do not give them the space to move. Spread out. It will play a little like the IG blobs with the punch of the dreads and stompa.

What makes this so powerful is the ridiculously low cost stompa that Boss Buzzgob gets. At just 300 points you are getting a 650 point model. This frees up the points to add the dakkajets and bastion. Rather silly really but those are the rules and Orks should take whatever given, right? So what does this stompa have?

The supa-gatler nominates  a unit within 48", then rolls 2d6 to determine the number of shots you get against that unit. Then you nominate the same unit or another enemy unit within 12" of your original target, roll the 2d6 again, and so long as you don’t come up with doubles, you fire that many shots. Repeat until you finally roll doubles for the 2d6, after which the supa-gatler is out of ammo and may not fire for the rest of the game. But fear not, because the supa-gatler shots also serve as tracer fire for the deth kannon: once the gatler is out of ammo, the kannon fires on the last unit the gatler targeted. And because it is co-axial it rerolls to hit. And did I fail to mention that the gatler spews S 7, AP 3 shots?

The Gaze of Mork lacks in rate of fire (three shots per turn), but has the ability to make up for in strength. You roll 2d6 every time you fire it, and use that result for its Strength: rolls of “11” and “12” are considered as “Destroyer”. Not too shabby.

Now we have not even mentioned the deffcannon. It is a very nice  S 10, AP 1 7"  “Pie Plate of Death” which benefits from the co-axial gatler to reroll hits. Or the strength D mega choppa. Or the supra rokkits that are infinite range, stength 8, AP3, Heavy 1, Large Blast, one use only. not terrible at all.

Every super-heavy walker causes Fear, has Move Through Cover, Hammer of Wrath, Relentless, Strikedown and Smash. They can move 12" in the movement phase and otherwise behave exactly like Walkers out of the rulebook. And they have stomp attacks.

And all this for 300 points.  It does have 12 HP  It would be nice to have power shields. But who is going to complain with what it has? An Imperial Knight costs more, cannot transport twenty models and has weapons a lot less potent.    

Big Boss Buzzgob is also quite the character for 100 points. He can fix that stompa along with the meqs.  Any dreads or mega-dreads within 6" are scoring too.  And yes  - his stompa scores too. And did I mention that the mega-dread has fleet once per game? And a 5+ inv. save?

So for those who do not want a stompa in their list you can field this instead
Big Boss Buzzgob 100
Kustom Mega-Dread, Shunta. Kustom Force Field 280 (goes with dreads in troops slot)
2x Deffdread; 1 w/ 2 extra claws, 1 with extra claw scorcha, both w/ armour plates grot riggers 260
3x 22 Spanna Boyz; Shootas; Mek; Burna 456
2x Dakkajets; Fighta Ace; Extra Supra Shoota; 260
2x Mega-Dread; 2 Rippa Klaws; 2 Kustom Mega-balsta; Mega-charga 420
AGL; Comms Relay 70
(1846)

Hopefully the new codex will not impact the list at all.

On the Bastion mentioned earlier, I might recommend the comms relay.

Not a list, just musings...

The Imperial Guard - possibly - is a meta-changer.

If you look at all the really popular, really big builds out there, then they key components by and large just simply are in the Imperial Guard book.

They don't have Monsterous Creatures. They don't have Extreme Mobility. They don't have mobile Death Stars. About the only thing they do have is strong Psychic Potential, although even there they are no Seer Council or Flying Circus.

What they have are Tanks and Bodies.

And a lot of lists don't really factor those things in. I've lost count of how many times I've pointed out a weakness in anti-AV14/13 in his lists to Duck and for him to go 'And?'. Recently I was talking to Ligs - I think - about the new arty tank, I was against it as I thought its abilities redundant.

But if IG become an army you have to worry about on the top tables, it stops being true.

Does that affect the current top armies? I don't know, I didn't think that far ahead... but its an interesting thought to me.

I think beyond the scope of just IG/AM as a lone army, we need to consider the brutality that IG/AM allies bring. They are battle brothers for all imperial factions except Grey Knights and are allies of convenience to many more.

Marine players are probably going to find some nifty uses for 3 level 2 psykers with divination. Deathstars? I doubt it, but be prepared to find some lists that all the sudden get some massive efficiency boost. Furthermore, even beyond that you may just see blobs taken for allies. It's pretty cheap to field a platoon and some hq and go bananas supporting your bike squadrons or the like.

AV14 is definately going to be something we need to be careful of. Thankfully as Dark Eldar, we don't care in the slightest. But if you are playing a different army, then you need to take care to bring the melta, las or mobility to get into those side flanks. I've heard great things about the wyvern, but have yet to see it used. On paper, it just looks brutal for its point cost. At that points cost its better than the ubiquitous thunderfire cannon...beware.

ordosean wrote:

Yeah the hunter is really only there for FMC demons with a helldrake. 

I feel your pain on that one. I played Nick on Saturday with the double pack list I've been using (we did an obj/KP adepticon mission since I wanted to see how I'd have done against him if I went this year), and it was insanely frustrating. Those missions are perfect for FMCs to get first blood then split primaries by winning KPs. Although he only won KPs because he precisioned out my sybarite and they broke bottom 5 and the game ended. Baron got off a sweet multi-charge against plaguebearers and his bastion (with sorc and cultists inside), beasts hit the bastion with grenades and did 48 hits to the cultists haha for 3 quick KPs and pain tokens. Baron didn't even have to get his hands dirty. When's the last time Vect pulled that off   ?

The IG codex is just plain SOLID and COMPETITIVE, without the usual shinanigans. I love how self contained it is. Its an army that essentially elimated within its own codex the need for allies.

Love it.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:

ordosean wrote:

Yeah the hunter is really only there for FMC demons with a helldrake. 

I feel your pain on that one.  I played Nick on Saturday with the double pack list I've been using (we did an obj/KP adepticon mission since I wanted to see how I'd have done against him if I went this year), and it was insanely frustrating.  Those missions are perfect for FMCs to get first blood then split primaries by winning KPs.  Although he only won KPs because he precisioned out my sybarite and they broke bottom 5 and the game ended.  Baron got off a sweet multi-charge against plaguebearers and his bastion (with sorc and cultists inside), beasts hit the bastion with grenades and did 48 hits to the cultists haha for 3 quick KPs and pain tokens.  Baron didn't even have to get his hands dirty.  When's the last time Vect pulled that off   ?

Whoa I never even considered doing that with my beasts. Thanks for the idea although im sure my buddies wont be too pleased.

On the crimson hunter why not consider a pair of vengeance batteries with quad icarus LC? Accomplishes the same thing vs FMCs but is doubly hard to remove, causes twice the grounding, provides 3+ cover and starts on the board with intercept.. Ive been using them recently and they are damn solid. Most people hate wasting that much effort on something so cheap and so tough. They remind me of big gunz in a way.. only far better.

I like that idea a lot brom... maybe since I need to drop the bastion to take one I can do both. Those batteries can do some good stuff, while the hunter gives options to get angles on monsters hiding behind terrain. I think there is a lot of traction to allow stronghold in tournaments now so I thin kthis might be viable... I hadnt really thought of it before because initially it wasnt allowed.

Yes but they use the BARON Sean. The BARON. How can you take his advice?

Those vengeance batteries are something I've looked at in the past! I think that is a great suggestion.

So over the last couple days I decided to change my IG/Knight list around. I really wanted to use both my Knights that I own in a 1850 list. To do this, I needed to drop Pask, which I think I'm ultimately ok with as it will save me my hard earned cash as well as a whole lots of points.

Quote :

Yarrick
2x priests
lvl 2 psyker
Platoon (ccs with autocannon, 3x10 guardsmen with 3 lascannons, 3 power axes)
 veteran squad (lascannon)
2x wyverns
2x Knight Paladin, aegis with quad gun

ALLIES: scion command squad (4 meltaguns) and 5 man scion squad (2 plasma)

=1850 points

I think this list gives a lot of utility and brings something for everything. A little weak in the AA side, but I could probably turn a wyvern into a hydra if I needed to shore up the issue. I don't really have the points for my own flyers in a list like this...some would say sabre defense platforms... I'd love to use them but just can't really do it at this moment.  Anyone have any thoughts?

So, after several weeks without gaming (so much to do at work and with my kids), I will go to my club tomorrow and start playtesting.
After switching my list several times, I came up with the following:

- Baron
- Shardseer w Spear

- Trueborn with 2 Lances

- 2x 5 Wyches, HWG, Venoms with extra SC
- 10 Kabalite, Raider, Lance
- 9 Helions, Helliarch, Claw
- 3 Jetbikes

- Beastpack, 3 Masters, 10 Khymera, 2 Flocks
- Crimson Hunter

- 2 Ravagers, NS
- 3 War Walkers, each with Scatter Laser and Bright Lance

- Aegis with Quad

Comes up to 1807 which leaves me 43 points open to the intended 1850.

The idea is straightforward(?):
- Baron and Seer should join the Beastpack for a star
- the Trueborns should man the Aegis and fire either at tanks or use the Quad to intercept
- Wyches for more AT
- the Kabalites can either start inside the raider or outside it. Main goal is to keep a home objective and to give fire support
- the Helions can go around, attack cheaper troops or provide distraction
- the Jetbikes are for linebreaker / late object grabbing
- The Crimson Hunter is for AA and AT
- the Ravagers will give me long range fire support
- the War Walkers should outflank and leverage the pressure on the enemy / camping shooty units or tanks in the deployment zone of the other player.

Not sure if the list works, it is all "theorycraft" on the paper. And I still do not know what to do with the last 40 points....

Calaman, I'd drop a few things from elsewhere and find a venom for those Trueborn with lances for the last points.

Can I also suggest posting your lists up in the Army Lists section in future? You'll probably get more views and comments there.

Brom wrote:

On the crimson hunter why not consider a pair of vengeance batteries with quad icarus LC? Accomplishes the same thing vs FMCs but is doubly hard to remove, causes twice the grounding, provides 3+ cover and starts on the board with intercept.. Ive been using them recently and they are damn solid. Most people hate wasting that much effort on something so cheap and so tough. They remind me of big gunz in a way.. only far better.

The main drawback being that you can't pick what they target, they just shoot at the nearest Flying thing, then the nearest unit if there are no fliers/FMCs. So against FMC spam they'll almost always be shooting at a grimmed Fateweaver/Invisible LoC/something you'd rather not shoot. If stonghold is allowed I feel like a couple void shields are a better answer to FMCs with a drake since so little of their shooting is capable of knocking a shield down. You 've got to be careful to position the shields and move block properly to avoid letting them get inside, but with beasts and warrior blobs, taking up space isn't exactly tricky.

Actually you are thinking of the firestorm redoubt which has the rule Primary Target. The vengeance WBs have no such restrictions making them... awesome.

Really...hmmm... there may be a purchase for my DE in the near future

Hahaha yessir! The fact that they are av14 NO hull pts and come stock with 2 twin linked 96" range las skyfire interceptors and give 3+ cover all for 75 is pretty nuts. Im surprised I havent seen more of em tbh. They will usually get 1 hit in each from my experience then occasionally miss or hit twice. Totally worthwhile since they are immune to most forms of common AT weaponry in todays meta.

This is my current list if anyone is interested. Not highest end competitive but its what I enjoy playing:

HQ
baron
farseer, jetbike, spear, shard, ssoa, rowit

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
3 windriders
3 windriders

FA
24 beast pack, 4 bm, 20 khymera
8 swooping hawks

HS
ravager
wraith knight

FT
vengeance battery, quad icarus lc
vengeance battery, quad icarus lc

1750

Calaman wrote:

So, after several weeks without gaming (so much to do at work and with my kids), I will go to my club tomorrow and start playtesting.
After switching my list several times, I came up with the following:

- Baron
- Shardseer w Spear

- Trueborn with 2 Lances

- 2x 5 Wyches, HWG, Venoms with extra SC
- 10 Kabalite, Raider, Lance
- 9 Helions, Helliarch, Claw
- 3 Jetbikes

- Beastpack, 3 Masters, 10 Khymera, 2 Flocks
- Crimson Hunter

- 2 Ravagers, NS
- 3 War Walkers, each with Scatter Laser and Bright Lance

- Aegis with Quad

Comes up to 1807 which leaves me 43 points open to the intended 1850.

The idea is straightforward(?):
- Baron and Seer should join the Beastpack for a star
- the Trueborns should man the Aegis and fire either at tanks or use the Quad to intercept
- Wyches for more AT
- the Kabalites can either start inside the raider or outside it. Main goal is to keep a home objective and to give fire support
- the Helions can go around, attack cheaper troops or provide distraction
- the Jetbikes are for linebreaker / late object grabbing
- The Crimson Hunter is for AA and AT
- the Ravagers will give me long range fire support
- the War Walkers should outflank and leverage the pressure on the enemy / camping shooty units or tanks in the deployment zone of the other player.

Not sure if the list works, it is all "theorycraft" on the paper. And I still do not know what to do with the last 40 points....

5 Troop choices is good. Your plan with the Kabalites doesnt require a Raider. perhaps the Raiders points could be moved to another place in the list.

I'd strongly recomend a Dual Star Cannon warwalker group. they are positively FANTASTIC. now you are trying to twin link their lances and use them for anti-tank but you can get lances for less elsewhere if anti-tank is their goal. and outflanking does give access to rear armors so the need for a LANCE outflanking is lesser than the need for other weapons.

Its just food for thought.

Brom wrote:

Hahaha yessir! The fact that they are av14 NO hull pts and come stock with 2 twin linked 96" range las skyfire interceptors and give 3+ cover all for 75 is pretty nuts. Im surprised I havent seen more of em tbh. They will usually get 1 hit in each from my experience then occasionally miss or hit twice. Totally worthwhile since they are immune to most forms of common AT weaponry in todays meta.

This is my current list if anyone is interested. Not highest end competitive but its what I enjoy playing:

HQ
baron
farseer, jetbike, spear, shard, ssoa, rowit

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc
3 windriders
3 windriders

FA
24 beast pack, 4 bm, 20 khymera
8 swooping hawks

HS
ravager
wraith knight

FT
vengeance battery, quad icarus lc
vengeance battery, quad icarus lc

1750

I'm a huge fan of the Weapon Vengeance battery, but check page 96 of the BRB. They still have to fire at the nearest model. That being said you missed another great thing about them, they're not worth victory points in purge the alien. I still find them incredibly useful as I use them mainly for intercept, and that's how I "constrol" what they fire at.

Dammit your right! Guess thats why they felt a little too good. Sheesh keeping track of all these supplemental rules is proving annoying. And on that note I may owe a few people apologies heh heh. Ah well at least your points on no vic pts and interceptor control make up for it somewhat.
Thanks for the heads up btw.

Edit- upon further reflection I think they are nearly the same value to me as before. I need skyfire and they do this very well with intercept.
In latter turns or when no flyers are present I can still attempt to remove unwanted decoy units with other shooters before firing with the forts to control their targets.

It's story time with Uncle Blade...

Once upon a time there was a Duck, and, wishing to see the World burn, he created an Eldar list so horrible that nobody else would use it (apart from one, or so rumour has it, and that is another story). In time the Duck grew tired of his anger and hate and foreswore such ways.

But not everyone forgot it.

And one day, a foolish young man decided to see if he could better it...

---

Blade's updated (improved?) version of the Alpha Strike - 1850 points Eldau

HQ Farseer - Jetbike (115)

Troops

DAVU Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser (185)
DAVU Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser (185)

FA
3 Hornets - Pulse Lasers
1 Hornet - Pulse Lasers

HS
3 Shadow Weavers - 90

Farsight Allies

HQ Commander - Two Missile Pods, Drone Controller, Target Lock, 1 Marker Light Drone - 140

Troops
3 Crisis Suits - 2 Fusion Blasters, Bonking Knifes - 159
3 Crisis Suits - 2 Missile Pods, Bondage Knifes, Target Locks, 4 Marker Light Drones - 222

Elite
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, Earth Caste Thing, Early Warning Override - 220

Heavy Support
3 Broadside - High Yield Missile Pods, Shas'vre, Bonding Knifes, Advanced Targeting System - 214

1850 on the nose (or so excel tells me)

What you get

16 S5 shots, twin linked (but only to 30", so maybe not true alpha strike material)
8 S6 shots
2d6+2 S7 ignores cover shots (probably twin-linked)
28 S7 shots (12 twin-linked and picking targets on 6s, 5s for the Shas'vre)
12 S8 shots

3 S6/7 barrage blasts
1 S8 blast - or S9 if ordnance requires

Conservatively, that's 55 normal shots (fair bit below the Duck list there sadly) and 3-4 varying blasts - with another 16-20 if someone is daft enough to set up within 30".

The marker lights are there to support the Riptide. The 4/5 hits should see him through. The Farseer can hide behind/with the Riptide and twin-link two units; two from three of the Shadow Weavers, Hornet Squadron and Crisis Squad seem likely.

This list does lose out on some of the deployment shenanigans sadly - no Scout, less Outflanking, although we do get some Deep Strike. There are a few static elements. Conversely, there is more scoring, more twin-linked and more AT threat and more Infantry sniping. The Weavers and Broadsides should pick out every Heavy Weapons Team in a guard blob very quickly. The Fusion Suits aren't Alpha Strike but they are a solid hard counter to high AV while the Riptide can also fire some serious anti-armour (plus he can always jump on it).

Better? You tell me. Or tell me to delete it quickly, like Duck should have done with the first one...

Could have at least let us get our Marshmellows before you finished the story.

A little sidetracking.

Our meta is defined very preciesly here: WAR HEAD(some finnish text but list are in english)

4 SM, 3 Daemons, 3 Eldar/DE, 3 TAU and 2 AM. A couple of wierd lists but othervice pretty standard tournament stuff. Only 2 hellturkies in the whole tournament   

3 rounds next Saturday with Top 8 getting to Sunday finals.