A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

- aug 14th update  - a decent to madness -

So I have clearly lost my mind and intend to use one of the weakest choices in the codex ... the dias of destruction. It got totally nerfed ... AV14 to AV13, it cannot fire it's weapons on the move at full ballistic skill (only at 6") and it it will cost a third of my list! To aggravate matters Im running TWO deathstars, muhaha ... I want to try this out against Nec/DAr, TauDAr, CSM/Daemons. Next step is to finish off the models and find an opponent.


Pimp Daddy and the Council Boys

Primary: 1180

Asdruebal Vect, Dias of Destruction 440 (warlord)
Haemonculus, Power Axe, Liquifier Gun 70
7 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Aclolyte, Agoniser 125

10 Kabalite Warriors, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Raider, Nightshields, Grisly Trophies 190
5 Wyches, Haywire Grenades, Venom Dual Splinter Cannon 125

Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115
Ravager, Tri-Lance, Nightshields 115

Allied: 670

HQ: Farseer, Eldar Jetbike, Singing Spear, Mantle of the Laughing God 160

10 Guardian Defenders, Scatterlaser, Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lances, Holofields, Ghostwalk Matrix 255
10 Guardian Defenders, Scatterlaser, Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lances, Holofields, Ghostwalk Matrix 255

(1850)

So let's look at this. Vect is WS8 BS8 S3 T3 W4 I8 A5 Ld10 Sv4+ with a Shadow Field, ghostplate armor, splinter pistol, plasma grenades, and haywire grenades.Now the Obsidian Orb is neat but likely not too useful in game terms. It is12" S10 Ap3 Assault 1 blast weapons that heal  Vect's wounds heal with each he delivers to his foes but the orb rolls to wound against the leadership of the target not of its toughness. His scepter is also AP3 now but it wounds on 3+ and is a power weapon. That and seizing the initiative, preferred enemy and fearless in his squad - well.

Does the Dias let us down though. It is AV13 but unlike a ravager it cannot move 12" and fire its weapons.and open topped is vulnerable. It does have three lances though and I'm adding two ravager, two wave serpents, a raider full of kabbalites and a venom to apply pressure. Vect might get to where he needs to be.The Farseer might get lucky and have a few nice powers to support the dual deathstar as well.  I wanted a  seer council with all the powers tto pose a real threat on the table. In the games that I have played the seer council they only disappointed once (GK mindstrike, FTW, lol). Unfortunately you cannot ally warlocks, meh. DE cannot get transports with too many bodies for it. DE cannot ally in a seer council. The dias cannot take grots. We adapt.

So dais might not the best use of points but it is so cool. Vect is the pimp daddy of the codex. He needs a pimped up transport. The dais is all I have. The list is designed to alpha strike. Like Tank Girl says ' blitzkrieg'. If nothing else I'm hoping it will be a blast to play. Nothing better than taking paper theory to the table, eh. Sometimes the mire of rules really hits home when fielding DE. Knowing how to shoot properly (aerial assqault or not) how to move ( jink or not) and assault ( multi-charge and disorderly charge rules) becomes uber important in play.

I know parts of the list will excel at their tasks - will it have the synergy needed to win? Will my troops hold out? Will flyers kill it (think heldrakes). Dark Eldar and Eldar are like peanut and banana sandwich. Can you taste the sweet crunch.

- one day -

one day i will play this ...

Pimp Daddy's Drive By

Pimp Daddy Vect, Dias of Destruction 440
2x Haemonculus, Power Axe,  Liquifier Gun, 1 Crucible of Malediction 160
6 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, 1 Acothyst, Agoniser115
(unit is fearless, preferred enemy, reroll wounds2  liquefier guns,
fnp, furious charge, 32 attacks on the charge and vect can steal initiative)

8 Mandrakes 120
(with attached haemie- detached from vect ride, 6 dead meqs when shooting and assaulting)

3x 10 Kabalite Warriors, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Raider, 3 Splinter Racks, 2 Grisly Trophies 565
(6 shots at 25"-36", 15 shots at 13"-24", and 24 shots at 12", reroll misses)

2 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwings 84
(22 wounds, 24 rending attacks on the charge)

Razorwing Jetfighter, Flickerfields 155
2x Talos, TL Liquifier, TL Splinter Cannon 210
( i love these guys)

(1849)

Mandrakes either outflank or infiltrate and haemie from vect's squad will detach and join them. Mandrakes are so overlooked. They can GTG for a 2+, they can sit objectives, they can attack non-cc units at the back, they can line break. Don't overlook what infiltrate/outflank can do. They are not the be-al-end-all for sure. They will not win games on their own. But they can be that piece to the puzzle you are looking for in many games. Mock it f you will.

egorey wrote:

Does the Dias let us down though. It is AV13 but unlike a ravager it cannot move 12" and fire its weapons.and open topped is vulnerable. It does have three lances though and I'm adding two ravager, two raiders, a wave serpents, and a seer council to apply pressure. Vect should get to where he needs to be.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it doesn't have 3 DLs, it was FAQ'd to just be an AV13 Raider. Yes, it is that awful..

I think not. You are misunderstanding the FaQ.

egorey wrote:

I think not. You are misunderstanding the FaQ.

Wait this is really weird.. After seeing your reply I checked the english FAQ and it's not the same as the french one O_O
In the FAQ written in french it says that for the Dias of Destruction you're suppose to replace the word "Ravager" by "Raider". What does the english DE codex say? In mine it says it's an AV13 Ravager (so an AV13 Raider after the FAQ) that has to start with Vect + 9 models at the start of the game.
I am very confused.

It is making clear that the dias needs nine models (so no grots) and cannot take upgrades - that's all. It makes no reference to the number of dark lances it carries which is specified in the codex. Ravager implies that it has no transport capacity which it does.

egorey wrote:

It is making clear that the dias does not get fire all it's weapons after moving more than 6" and that it needs nine models (so no grots). It makes no reference to the number of dark lances it carries which is specified in the codex. Ravager implies that it has no transport capacity which it does.

Oh it doesn't say that it's either a Ravager or a Raider? Or how many dark lances it fields?

I think you can only take Warlocks in your primary detachment. Check out the Warlock points listing:
"Each Primary Detachment may include up to one Council 1-10 warlocks. The unit does not take up a force organization slot."

Pretty sure this means you can't ally them since they don't fit slots AND it says primary detachment.

Damn ... rewrite time. And fixed. Eldar needs to be primary of course.

Vect can't be your Warlord if he's in your allied detachment has to be the HQ with the highest leadership in your primary. Never ran Vect before myself though but can't help but feel he's a big old points sink in an allied detachment but might have to give him a go myself.
Your Wych unit has too many wych weapons though.

I like the load out on Wyche unit. It has the tools to handle whatever it comes in contact with. I had DE promary and then switched to Eldar primary to get the seer council ( cannot be in an allied detachement).

I slapped together a list rather quickly (still building it and then started to realize that I could not field it legally as it stood. I am constricted as to what I can atke as soon as I ad the seer council. But I want the Seer Council. It is the best protection for the Vectstar and vice versa. To place two potent threats on the table makes decision making a little more difficult for your opponent. Either deathstar will run through an opponent's lines so now my opponent will be hesitant to castle up and if he splits his forces I can attack a flank. At least in my mind I see running it that way.

Sorry I didn't mean you don't need 2 Wych Weapons but that you can't have 2 with only 9 models in the unit. Sounds like a promising plan otherwise

I'd hardly count Vect with wyches as a deathstar. Actually I would just ignore them or position myself some to shoot them from the flank ignoring Vect if he's out front. Your jetbikes are way more threatening to me than Vect and the wyches. Most likely you will blow out a squad in combat and then be left in the open.

Doh. See what happens when you copy paste from old lists. Of course i cannot. Fixed now. Which brings it back to how constricted I am running a council and a dias in the same list. I would like to configure it differently but cannot. Seer Council must be primary. So I need troops in the primary that hurt adding more venoms/raiders etc., in my allied. Not that Wave Serpents are bad, lol. But I feel restrained and at the same time still compelled to make the dias work.

As for Vect not being a threat. He is a beast. He will decimate squads with those wyches. And you cannot just ignore the dias either (not that you cannot take it down - you can). I know that Vect will be a threat all game.

Notice ... this thread is now being handed over to Lig's. So stay tuned. Be kind to Ligs .. he is new to DE but should because of that provide a fresh perspective

So today (Aug. 15th) I will be playing space marines at 1850. This is my first venture outside my group of friends really playing against other people and at this lower point count. I'm used to 2k+ points. The list I am using is a weird one for sure.

Archon (huskblade, shadowfield, soul trap)
4 grots (liquifier) in a boat with nightshields
10 warriors with cannon
10 warriors with cannon
5 wyches with HWG in a raider with nightshields
5 wyches with HWG in a riader with nightshields
5 reavers (no upgrades)
Razorwing
Talos (liquifier, cannon)

CWE Allies:
Spiritseer
Wraithguard with Wraithcannons in a Wave Serpent with Holo-fields
Wraithknight with suncannon and scatter laser


The list certainly looks weird, but I'm hoping the trifecta of high toughness units (knight, guard, and talos) will be good distractions and when they get to their ideal locations on the board, wreck havoc.  The suncannon will be a god blowing up power armor. If I see terminators that will be a little more difficult, I may have to send the grots and archon at them if for whatever reason my wraithguard can't do the job. Warriors provide objective capturing and covering fire. Spiritseer is with the wraithguard boosting them, if I'm lucky I will roll jinx and screw with the marines armor save! The wyches will hunt tanks and other targets of opportunity. The reavers will stay in reserve at first and come out and bladevane and take objectives late if they survive.

This list is definatley going to change in the future as I get more models in my collection...I have a battleforce box to do and I have a 2nd talos and my first venom on the way as well. I'm excited for the last 2 especially! Thinking blasterborn in the venom would be good for me.

I'll update you guys later on how the match goes down.

So it seems the only game I can get for my Dias list is against this:

The Tau Cadre

Darkstrider 100
11 Fire Warriors, Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Sensor Spine 199

Ethereal 50
9 Sniper Drones, 3 Farsight Marksmen 174

6 Pathfinders, 3 Rail Rifles, Recon, Grav and Pulse Drones, EMP, Devil Fish Disruption Pod, Sensor Spines 281
3 Piranhas, Fusion Blasters 150
3 Piranhas, Fusion Blasters 150

12 Fire warriors, Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Sensor Spine 208
11 Kroot, Sniper Rifles, Kroot Hound  82
10 Kroot, Sniper Rifles, Kroot Hound  75
10 Kroot, Sniper Rifles, Kroot Hound  75

Hammerhead, Rail Gun, Smart Missile System,  Submunitions,  Longstrike 175
Sky Ray, Smart Missile System , 6 Seeker Missiles, Disruption Pod 130

(1849)


- notes on VacuumHammer -

VacuumHammer is an addiction on the net. Everyone is busy quantifying the weight certain units have on the table by measuring their relative firepower and utility against other units. Their weight and prescence when added to a list is not taken into account and few will admit to what can be acomplished with certain units. The dias is still AV13 and puts out a good amount of fire, and Vect is very decent at assault, capable of changing a game, and although this might not be the worlds best squad the combined effect of both shooting and assaulting is good and works very well with the rest of the list. This value of getting Vect in position, controlling the table and causing problems has not been accorded enough respect on this forum. It is exceedingly difficult to quantify that type of element in game terms. The Vect dias is fully capable of using mobility as a hammer lbut because this appears situational it is deemed poor. It is situational in EVERY game though.

Now look at my friend's list. He is an experienced player. You are not seeing an error. There are NO suits in his list. He plans on outflanking Darkstrider and raining down fire upon me. Lol. It is a pretty darn good plan to be honest. I've noticed a trend lately. I'm seeing a lot less CSM lists and Heldrakes. I think most Tau lists  (which have become popular) have reduced their appearances. They have lost their charm. So lists without flyer defense can sneak in events and win. Will the absence of a Commander, Riptide or Crisis weaken his list substantially? He feels it ois actually stronger than his previous list.


I'll update after the match and after Lig's match. Let us see how the newcomer does first. He seems unconstrained by the current net wisdom and has been winning with DE. Let's see if less VacuumHammer and actual play will illuminate what can work on the table. Who knows ... maybe evn Mandrakes have their place, lol.

Interesting list to face Eg!

But back to the epic battle between my DE list and what turned out to be Raven Guard centric space marine army.

From what I could tell just by looking at the army I played against:
Captain (maybe chapter master) with jump pack, lightning claws
3x 10 man assault squads with flamers, sarges upgraded with heavy fighting gear
3x tactical squads in rhinos with assorted heavy weapons and special weapons
1x tactical squad with lascannon and plasma gun

My opponent is no noob to the game. He has many other armies and has played and won in tournaments. Next time I will probably face his demons or Tau army.

So the game was Emperors Will, I got night attacker for my warlord trait and thus forced nightfight first turn. I deployed second so he was going to go first. I had a strong left flank which was to protect my center left objective deployment. And somehow I managed to steal the initiative! I wasn't really expecting this but looking at rhino walls with assault marines bunched up behind them for cover, I took advantage of what I could.

I shuffled my units around just a little bit with only the grots and talos moving forward 6" (grot boat blocked by a nice piece of terrain from most sight lines) I didn't really have to worry about the range of my opponent except for CC. I openned up using my lances and wave serpent to crack open a rhino and force the guys out all nice and bunched up for my wraithknight. The Wraithknight layed into it and destoryed all but 1 guy in the squad.

Now its his turn...he moves forward with everything (usually the way I play) and spreads out as well to avoid the wraithknight from mulching more things. He unloads all his tacticals from the rhinos. It looks like a freaking mess of marines on the other table edge and my confidence wanes some. But the gods were with me, he either missed or failed to do squat with all his heavy weapons, even ones that didn't move. Nothing was in range really, excpept the talos who didn't care.

That ended his turn... I took zero casualties turn 1. We proceed to go back and forth but thanks to my fliers missiles, wraithknight, and talos I beat the crap out of most things. I did lose all my troops by turn 5, but worry not I tabled him Turn 5 anyways, resulting in a victory for me.

Some other highlights:
-Talos beat the crap out of 2 tactical squads easily being my MVP for getting me momentum
-Wraithknight being a jump guy is fantastic with how I was able to move to the different threats, especially those assault marines. I used my wyches as counter assault but they didn't do squat to the assault marines...they died in droves.
-Grots with archon were nice for holding up midfield with the talos in a big melee. I lost only 2 grots by the end of the game from assault. That high toughness is amazing against marines.
-Reavers never even got shot at. They just bladevaned around killing a marine or 2 each time.

Final thoughts on how things went:
It was a really good game. My opponent had issues getting going but the wall of marines I faced was daunting and scary. Thanks to some good shooting, and a ton of messy assaults I came out on top mainly thanks to my Talos and Wraithknight beating up the marines. Even a single Talos did amazing just by holding up the midfield from advancing. I look forward to getting my second (hopefully today). I look forward to making a list using 2 talos. I would probably give up there reavers if I wanted to keep the rest of it the same. The wyches were next to useless this game too but I think thats because I faced an assault centric marine army with no true vehicles to go after.

Anyone else have thoughts?

Aug. 17th: Thoughts about changing up the list

So I've been pondering how I would want to change this list to be more toward TAC but still using my weird methods (ie no ravagers, no venom spam). I'm definately going to add a second Talos. Even just the one alone massacred marines last battle and in my previous games he's always done well tanking shots and being annoying to my opponent. AP2 hits in CC since he's a MC is nothing to laugh at either. Thus, I think 2 would be a perfect amount for my army. It will give me more board presence with high toughness units. That would give me a total of 5 high toughness units: Grots, 2 Talos, Wraithguard, and Wraithknight.  One thing that worries me are Grav guns...depending on how the new marine dex pans out I could be in deep crap with those units  (except the Grots with that 6+ save haha!)

So the question is, what other changes do I make to the list to get the 2nd talos in? The wyches didn't do much last game, but then again that was because I didn't face any armor beyond rhinos. My flier has always done decent blowing up hordes of guys grouped close together, but I haven't faced much skyfire and that could change easily enough, so maybe I drop that to get the new Talos in. I also have a venom coming in as well. I have 2 unused elite slots in my collection (going for 1 force org to start). I'm thinking blasterborn with those slots. So I will probably start working on my last battleforce box and making the blasterborn guys...which brings me to another thought...

Would I ever field 3 squads of wyches? Honestly, I doubt it in low point more competitive games. I feel like I'd rather have small squads in venoms (max 2, thus no spam imo). So what do I do with the 10 wyches I have in that battleforce box? I suppose I could simply convert those to Trueborn with some kitbashing, which honestly sounds like a good idea to me. Ultimately, that would mean I would have 4 warrior squads to choose from my collection when making lists and 2 wych squads. This would also give me a total of 3 raiders to use in the immediate future. Though I would like to increase that to a full 6 so every squad could have one in the future.  

I feel like these are reasonable ideas, but I need your thoughts please!!!

I'm curious to see what you come with. I could easily advise you as what to do but you have been doing just find intuitively building and playing your lists. So if you want to go MSU check it out. There are no real set configurations. For instance ... I might use this ...

!0 KW, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Raider, Splinter Racks, Grisly Trophies

So I could easily be told that a blaster and splinter cannon are counter intuitive. I could be told that splinter racks are a waste of points because often enough in games I will be disembarked and starting on foot. And do I need the trophies at all. I'm not using anything that they can buffer to win a game with ( eg., allied seer council, etc.). So when taking the squad apart it seems to be suboptimal in a few respects. And yet the squad has done well for me ON the table. It has the insurance I like. I can if need be go after either a tank or infantry. I can if I want to deploy and use my warriors in the boat if I feel they will safe and get my reroll. The trophies will be used not just for this squad but for any squad that could possibly break.

Now this might be all wrong for your list. It might not suit you at all. So keep doing what you are doing. You want to use Grots with a Haemie instead of an Archon or Succubus? Try it out. You want to use small wyche squads in venoms or blasterborn ... test it out ( I could say that reavers might do their job as well, or more flexible, have a better cover save but they cost more).  There aren't right answers. Don't be fooled by net talk. You need to try units out and make your own decisions as you familiarize yourself with how DE works.

I'm looking forward to see how this progresses and how you deal with both losses and wins.

Makes 100% sense to me. I really don't think I would want more than 2 wych squads...especially since I run them as suicidal bombs against tanks and infantry blobs. >_>

Hopefully next week I'll start in on all these projects.

My next game is against Chaos, next week friday or saturday. I've never played against Chaos...anyone have any helpful hints or things I should worry about?

Chaos marines / daemons or both?

That is a good question I know he has both, but I will assume just Chaos marines for now.

So how do you plan on dealing with heldrakes?

I dont think i would face more than 1 but no matter the amount i think im going to try to ignore it/them unless i have no other shots. I'm facing the same player as before just a different army...I don't think he's into too much cheese.

Im thinking of running the wraithknight with cannons and adding heat lances to my reavers for additional AT/anti-MC. I will be dropping my flier and adding a 2nd talos...i think...i definitely want the 2nd talos, its a matter of figuring out what to do to the other things in the list (im modifying my last list).


New List I came up with earlier today (which assumes I will get my 2nd talos together and painted in time)

Archon (huskblade, venom blade, hwg, shadowfield)
4 grots with liquifier and raider with nightshields
2x 10 warriors with cannon
2x 5 wyches with hwg in raider with nightshields
6 reavers with 2 heat lances
2x talos with liquifier and cannon

CWE allies
spiritseer with wraithforge stone (heals wraithknight)
wraithguard with cannons in wave serpent with holo fields
wraithknight with wraithcannons

Total points 1850/1850

So the changes made are no flier and change of weapons on the knight which freed up the points to get the 2nd talos and get more reavers with weapon upgrades, and the venom blade on the archon though i took away the soul trap.

So I got my game in against the Tau list above.

Pimp Daddy's Drive By

Pimp Daddy Vect, Dias of Destruction 440
Haemonculus, Power Axe,  Liquifier Gun 70
8 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Acothyst, Agoniser 125
(unit is fearless, preferred enemy, reroll wounds, 2  liquefier guns,
fnp, furious charge, 32 attacks on the charge and vect can steal initiative)

2x 10 Kabalite Warriors, Splinter Cannon, Sybarite, Venom Blade, Raider, Disinegrator, Splinter Racks, Nightshields  390
(6 shots at 25"-36", 15 shots at 13"-24", and 24 shots at 12", reroll misses - raider had dissies as list has 12 DLs)
10 Wyches, Haywire Grenades, , Hexatrix, Agoniser, Raider, Nightshields, Grisly Trophies 225
(these guys will just add to the midfield threats - superb in cc and no vehicle will stand against them)

3x 2 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwings 252
(22 wounds, 24 rending attacks on the charge)

3x Ravager,  Nightshields 345
( gotta have lances)

(1847)

I gave my warriors the sybarite for pinning and losses from raider explosions sonic I planned on starting them deployed.  My plan was to go first butI was prepared for second.  If I stole initiative would be a bonus. I really wanted not to get smoked by stealth tureen one. I decided to run one boat of warriors up each side.  It split enemy fire. This allowed me to use Vect, the beast squads, the wyche squad or the raves to provide either the cover fire or the  rapid response to wherever it was needed. Vect is expensive. But once he baits the enemy into the middle you can let his squad get to work and he has a lot of help.He doesn't need to be there if your opponent decides to approach early. He needs to be there to deliver the hammer blow.

So that was the plan. Now I did get first turn and moved to take out the DFish early and also attack the stealths. Throughout the game as it progressed I used the beast packsto absorb the overwatch so either my wyches or my wracks with Vect could get off a nice charge. Although dissies generally seem a bit lacklustre in this list they  saved me. I had wyches with haywire and twelve lances . I needed the extra dacha throughout the game to deal with sniper teams, kraut, etc. It was necessary against a list that could put out the amount of fire Tau can. So I need mass fire and I needed to get into cc as fast as possible - I was not going to win the shooting game - although my list has a fair amount. And even so at the end of the game I had a single raider left on the table. Of course by then I had disembarked all my troops and was busy trying to grab a few KPs and objectives.

So I did in fact squeak out a draw on turn five We ended early - time constraints. Another turn or two and I think I would have lost. Vect was okay ( yes, that unit really is a bit too expensive for the cost. However, it was great bait, took enough punishment to allow me to get my game plan going, and so cannot be assessed solely on its damage output. I also for the first time in awhile rolled amazing well. And my opponent could not make the saves he needed when he needed them. This might have skewed the results a bit. I also think he deployed a bit poorly. He infiltrated one stealth
squad in range of my assault, he did not cover his DFish properly early on. That was huge. But overall he played well and should have won if he rolled better, I rolled worse, the game continued one more turn (cost him an objective). Strangely this is my second draw against Tau. So a win a loss and two draws. Better than my overall record against Nec (with allies).

So if I had to pick out units that impressed - wyches and beast packs. I never used my mandrakes ( I could not justify two units on the table that were over priced). I know I said that Vect and dais and mandrakes had their uses ( I still feel they do) but I think i may have to ray them in separate lists, lol. The list was if nothing else quite a lot of fun to play. With all the flyer defines out there now I think we will be seeing less flyers so I'm going to just hope twelve DLs will do if I face them. I had to contend with the hammerhead and it s little sister, but truthfully the sniper drones were bloody hard to get rid of. With stealth, an extra shot from the ethereal, etc., they hard to shift but thankfully they are fairly static. The hammerhead on the hand was not and it did damage throughout the game.

So that's it for now.