So who's looking forward to Space Marines?

DominicJ wrote:

By my maths the centurians are roughly on par with tau suits for cost?

In my LGS crisis squad costs 200,- PLN, which is ~13$ less than centurions.

I for one hope the marines get a buff. At this point I kind of hate seeing a marine army on the other side of the table simply because I know they don't even have a chance.

I thought about offering to handicap myself by 200 points in 1500+ point games but figured that would be a little too condescending.

I am really looking forward to Space Marines. Almost everyone has an SM army so they'll be itching to play them, whereas the armies I play do very well against marines. I doubt that tactical marines will ever be good, and the new gravity weapons won't be good as long as plasma guns exist. So if I'm seeing tactical marines and gravity weapons then I'll be happy as a clam.

The new units may also dissuade people from bringing flyers, FMCs or high save MCs which are all things I struggle against. Basically the new book will either bring units I can easily handle or units which will change the meta so I can handle other armies too. Win/win.

For SM players, at least the new book will add new and interesting ways to play through the Chapter Tactics rules. I think the new book is definitely good for SM players, just not groundbreaking and they'll get sorted back to the bottom of the heap soon enough.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I doubt that tactical marines will ever be good, and the new gravity weapons won't be good as long as plasma guns exist. So if I'm seeing tactical marines and gravity weapons then I'll be happy as a clam.

Yesterday I read new codex. Tigurius is only psyker with Divnation posibility, but he gets rerollable powers and rerolable psychic tests. Grav rifles are salvo 18" 2/3 AP2 that wound on armor (2+ on termis, 3+ on MEQ, 5+ on Our DE, 6+ on stuff w/o armor). And it does not get hot. On vehicles once hit, you roll d6 instead on armor pen, and on a 6 you inflict immobilize + 1 less hull point. Grav cans on centurions can reroll that aswell as normal to wound.

Grav-cans can be equiped on Centurions, and that is salvo 3/5 on 24" with reroll on to wound. So basicaly 3 such centurions can get 15 ap 2 shots. Tigurius seems a no brainer, for his high chance of picking 4+ inv / ignore cover / to hit rr stuff. Problem is those are 80 points each with grav can, and 90 points each when they carry additional missile launcher. T5 2W seems like an obeliterator stuff.

Well, I'm not so sure plasma would be king still

From other fun stuff: New AA guns cost 70 poitns each in Heavy support (!) But the one that has two guns, can shoot either 4x twinlinked S7 AP4 without interceptor, or can shoot 4x non twin linked S7 ap4 at two different targets, but they are resolved at BS2. Single AA shot with armourbane is quite nice though on the other one.

Honor guards are 2+ with power weaps with no access to some real special weaponry.

ravenizer wrote:

Tigurius is only psyker with Divnation posibility, but he gets rerollable powers and rerolable psychic tests. (...) Tigurius seems a no brainer, for his high chance of picking 4+ inv / ignore cover / to hit rr stuff.

Tigurius is the only Librarian with Divination? That's a pretty bad deal if you need to take Ultramarines Chapter Tactics too. Tigurius is definitely good, but not everyone wants to play Ultramarines. If you aren't restricted to taking a particular set of Chapter Tactics then I expect to see him as often as we saw Eldrad last edition, but a Psyker who can generate good powers occasionally doesn't make me fear SMs any more than I fear any other army who can generate and use good powers.

ravenizer wrote:

Grav rifles are salvo 18" 2/3 AP2 that wound on armor (2+ on termis, 3+ on MEQ, 5+ on Our DE, 6+ on stuff w/o armor). And it does not get hot. On vehicles once hit, you roll d6 instead on armor pen, and on a 6 you inflict immobilize + 1 less hull point. Grav cans on centurions can reroll that aswell as normal to wound.

Grav-cans can be equiped on Centurions, and that is salvo 3/5 on 24" with reroll on to wound. So basicaly 3 such centurions can get 15 ap 2 shots. Problem is those are 80 points each with grav can, and 90 points each when they carry additional missile launcher. T5 2W seems like an obeliterator stuff.

Well, I'm not so sure plasma would be king still

I don't have the luxury of reading the codex prior to release, so I'm going off the rumours and what you've said. But 18" AP2 Salvo 2/3 means that you move and shoot twice at 9" or stand still and shoot three times at 18". This pretty much means you won't be shooting. I would say that's about a write off unless you can drop pod within 9" and shoot twice, but plasma does it better. Gets Hot is a small price to pay for wounding almost everything on a 2+ at AP 2, I don't want to talk costs until the full release but if they are the same cost it's just a no-brainer.

Centurions are different though. I'll need to see them in the new codex to compare them to other models, but I'm not sure if they'll even be taken. If they are worth taking and you give them grav cannons then you're going to need to pod them in order to get them in range before they are nuked. Then you have to consider that most people are trying to work in blobs of cheap infantry with low saves so you've got to send them straight for elite units. You'll be lucky to be wounding on a 3+ and I could get a lot more plasma in at lower cost by skipping the centurions.

If the hunter/stalker is as good as people are saying then marines might not be instantly roasted by heldrakes anymore either. Since MCs have become more prominent as well as more mechanised lists these days, plasma has become very versatile. The grav weapons are short ranged, hard to deploy and Centurions look pretty expensive. But we'll see.

Does anyone know what grav does against vehicle?

On a roll of 6 on AP roll lose hull point and get immobilised result.

Plasmagun is more dangerous in my opinion. If plasmaguns got exchanged for those weapons - its better for us. But i dont see much reason for this, although grav weapons are slightly more cheaper then plasma.

Centurions can take LR as dedicated transport. As DE I won't fear Grav guns mainly becouse of nigthshields.

Centurions are definately going to be taken, mainly due to the fact, that right now it's their only Heavy Hitter that is resilent to helldrake dominance.

Grav rifles seem worse vs av 10/11/12, but seem better on av 13/14. It's also better vs riptides,wraithknights, dreadknights, ironarmed MCs, Taloi etc. It will have its uses. IMO those are main difficulties SM occur. While I do agree, if they take gravs, it would be better for us.

I've got the book now!

ravenizer wrote:

Centurions are definately going to be taken, mainly due to the fact, that right now it's their only Heavy Hitter that is resilent to helldrake dominance.

Grav rifles seem worse vs av 10/11/12, but seem better on av 13/14. It's also better vs riptides,wraithknights, dreadknights, ironarmed MCs, Taloi etc. It will have its uses. IMO those are main difficulties SM occur. While I do agree, if they take gravs, it would be better for us.

The heldrake point is a really good one. I'm not sure that Centurions are worth what you pay, and I think I'd rather be taking the heavy bolter than paying 20 pts for the grav cannon. But the grav cannon could be good with S&P, especially if your plan is to shoot MCs or flyers. I'm not sure I'd want to take them just for a 1/6 chance to do something to vehicles though.

The AA tanks kinda suck imo because they don't have Interceptor which means they snap fire against ground targets.

The thing that really caught my eye are the cheap scouts and their transport. I've seen people reverting to transport spam with heavy bolters, and a BS3 bolter is fine for the cost. The Cerberus Launcher looks really cool but it's too bad that Tau battlesuits and vehicles are immune to Blind. It could still be situationally useful and it's basically free so you might as well go for the 1/6 chance to blind Eldar too. It's also open-topped so the Scouts can shoot out of it. I think I'll be keeping an eye on this unit.

I wanted a couple of the scout speeders for my angels, but BA cant have them.

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I'm not sure I'd want to take them just for a 1/6 chance to do something to vehicles though.

Dont forget, 3 such Centurions pump out 15 shots (if companied by tigurius, add rerolls to hit) and you need only 2 6s to wreck most vehicles, and you get rerolls to get those 6s on centurions. So chance is quite high

Big stuff will suffer a lot, 15 shots, 10 hits, = immobilised land raider
And fliers will be far from trouble free, locked usually results in a terrain related crash rather quickly

I am starting an Iron Hands force and have come up with (which the internet seemed to do so simultaneously too) a real defensive, hard wearing guy.

T5, 4W, 2+, 3++, 6+++, it will not die and eternal warrior. He's also got a thunder hammer on a bike with 5 guys behind him who will take shots if he starts taking too many wounds - he's coming down the centre and charging you turn two.

How do you stop him?

Looks like hes tough but can be tarpited easily. Like beasts / harlies could do the work I think

Not me, with any of my armies, can already see the warning labels on all the SM butts that reads; WE ARE BEST WITH CRACKERS AND YOUR WHINE! But we'll have to wait and see if it is as bad as I think.

Sky Serpent wrote:

I am starting an Iron Hands force and have come up with (which the internet seemed to do so simultaneously too) a real defensive, hard wearing guy.

T5, 4W, 2+, 3++, 6+++, it will not die and eternal warrior. He's also got a thunder hammer on a bike with 5 guys behind him who will take shots if he starts taking too many wounds - he's coming down the centre and charging you turn two.

How do you stop him?

With a hail of Splinter Fire, Disintegrator shots and a Void Mine. Of course, this draws away lots of my firepower from the rest of your army...

So I got to see the C:SM and nothing really surprised me. It got all the pumps in the areas I thought it would and smelled a bit like a cream cheese rather than limburger. Just new model sales and of course giving them most of the rules from the DA as well as the flyer from GK/BA.

Black Death wrote:

So I got to see the C:SM and nothing really surprised me. It got all the pumps in the areas I thought it would and smelled a bit like a cream cheese rather than limburger. Just new model sales and of course giving them most of the rules from the DA as well as the flyer from GK/BA.

You mean SM codex?

I looked forward for the dex, now that I got it I'm not that excited anymore. Because Imperial Fists didn't get anything very useful

Altough Lysander is Eternal Warr now.

C:SM is codex space marine
CSM is chaos spare marines

Lysandar had EW last book... all he got was a point increase...

also the IF chapter tactics are really good actually. Re-roll 1s on all bolt weapons is stupidly good. Also devs w/ tank hunters works well. Might be worth taking dev centurions w/ lascannons and ML.