Tools for Tau

I'm looking at getting some because they're a lot cheaper than the Beast Packs. Have you tried using larger units (10+) at all?

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I'm looking at getting some because they're a lot cheaper than the Beast Packs. Have you tried using larger units (10+) at all?

Do you mean in game points or in real life?

Vasara wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I'm looking at getting some because they're a lot cheaper than the Beast Packs. Have you tried using larger units (10+) at all?

Do you mean in game points or in real life?

Oh, real life haha! In Canada a box of 5 Hellions costs ~15% more than a single Beastmaster. I could get three boxes of Hellions for $90 CAN before tax and stop representing the Baron with a Jetbike. If I wanted 3 masters, 5 Khymerae and 4 Razorwings then I'd be paying $225.25 if I bought it all Finecast.

So that's why I'm looking at how to make Hellions work.

The alternative would be to try to do some converting. I guess you get a box of Hellions and try to find agonisers for Beastmasters. A box of Vampire Counts Dire Wolves would do 10 Khymerae if I can get some scything talons of a Nid player. I don't know what to do about Razorwings, but I could use my Fell Bats from my very dated Vampire army.

What do other people do?

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I'm looking at getting some because they're a lot cheaper than the Beast Packs. Have you tried using larger units (10+) at all?

Actually, that is how I fell into so many of them. I ordered 5 to by kitbashed into Beastmasters and The Baron. By mistake I got a 2nd box and sorta... left it at that. Then I had a chance to buy 2 boxes off someone dirt cheap. Those challenged me to examine them.

Now it's 6th ed and they are a little less hammer than they were in 5th ed. I like to avoid the 10+ unless I know who i'm playing. A single Helldrake can gut the whole gang.

False Son wrote:

fuhrmaaj wrote:

I'm looking at getting some because they're a lot cheaper than the Beast Packs. Have you tried using larger units (10+) at all?

Actually, that is how I fell into so many of them.  I ordered 5 to by kitbashed into Beastmasters and The Baron.  By mistake I got a 2nd box and sorta... left it at that.  Then I had a chance to buy 2 boxes off someone dirt cheap.  Those challenged me to examine them.

Now it's 6th ed and they are a little less hammer than they were in 5th ed.  I like to avoid the 10+ unless I know who i'm playing.  A single Helldrake can gut the whole gang.

Oh true, not looking forward to Heldrakes.

There's a store nearby with a going out of business sale at 20% off. So I'm probably going to base my decision off of what I can find at this store. Like you said, if I can get one box of Hellions then I can (properly) represent the Baron and up to 4 Beastmasters. I'm not really impressed with most of the conversions I've done so far though so I'm worried I'll balls up the beast pack.

I have to give try for Beastmasters. They just cost here so much. But I've had in local meta moderate success with hemmie covenant heavy lists. Archon deploying WWP with Grotesque bodyguards. Using Wracks hold back objectives, spreading hemmies evenly with other units to get FnP, especially wyches and Talos is mean but Chronos... OMG that Spirit vortex and Spirit Symphon, it kills Tau like no other thing.

One thing what helped me is I discussed with local Tau players about BRB's wording of cover saves and they admitted that wording of the rule does give vehicles cover saves even with smart missiles, homing missiles and marker lights. That has helped me immensely.

thejamppa wrote:

One thing what helped me is I discussed with local Tau players about BRB's wording of cover saves and they admitted that wording of the rule does give vehicles cover saves even with smart missiles, homing missiles and marker lights. That has helped me immensely.

It might have helped you but it's unfortunately wrong. Smart Missiles have the Ignore Cover rule, as do Seeker Missile fired via Markerlights, as does any unit shooting your vehicles using 2 markerlight tokens to gain the Scour benefit.

Yeah your gaming group is playing it wrong thejamppa.

Ignore cover still affects vehicles even though the wording of ignore cover says you can't take cover saves against wounds inflicted by attacks with the ignore cover special rule.

Here's the important part:

Quote :

If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it must take a cover save against it, exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a Wound (for example, a save of 5+ for a wood and so on). If the save is passed, the hit is discarded, no Hull Points themselves, are lost and no roll is made on the Vehicle Damage table. - page 75

The rules state that vehicles treat cover exactly like non vehicle models would do against wounds.

When can't a non-vehicle model take a cover save against a wound? When the attack has Ignore Cover. So if vehicles take cover saves exactly like a non-vehicle would against a wound, it is bound by the same restrictions and therefore does not get a cover save against weapons with ignore cover.

See this thread for details.

To change the focus of this conversation, does anyone know any good tactics/units for dealing with Tau Destructo-naugths? Namely a units of crisis with double missile pods accompanied by a crisis commander in iridum armor, with FnP and the systems that allow his unit to ignore cover and re-roll to hit? This unit has proven consistently difficult for my primarily ranged army to kill whilst chewing its way through my units with little difficulty. Thoughts?

You are looking for a shooting solution right?

Basically, yeah. I figure the melee solutions that will be recommended to me would be a beastpack, since they make short work of grotesques with that high strength shooting.

Well the first thing I think I'd try is a Dissie Rav depending on how much heavy armor the Tau bring. Scourges with blasters might be good if you can get them close enough. They also might be vulnerable to being bladevaned (I don't know if you think this is a shooting unit though).

I do run reavers, but they are incredibly vulnerable to this unit, as it re-rolls hits, wounds on a 2+ and ignores cover. More importantly is the damn Commander who acts as a damage soak; his T5 2+/4++ with FnP is really good for soaking up shots, and my current list has no AP 2 outside of my ravagers.

Maybe some lanceborn. A DL should instant death a tau. That way he only has to miss one of his saves. Plus you have long range (for us).

Stupid Iridum armor makes him T5 unfortunately. 

So this is a T5, 4++, multi-wound problem....

Dissies. You can't get by the 4++ (maybe with some weird Homunc gear but that's not really shooting). You probably cannot reliably make them flee off the board. It seems you need to impose as many of those 4++ saves on the tau as you can. That means a high S, good AP weapon. A Dissie is good for that.

If I think of anything else, I'll follow-up.

How about massed splinter cannon fire? It negates his T5 and if you make him roll enough dice, he'll die soon enough.

GorlanVance wrote:

Basically, yeah. I figure the melee solutions that will be recommended to me would be a beastpack, since they make short work of grotesques with that high strength shooting.

Grots are a lot more survivable against tau in my experience. Tau rarely bring S10 in any meaningful numbers, I can't remember the last time I saw a railhead, even then it's a single shot. They do however have buckets of S7 making short work of beast packs especially combined with ignore cover.

So if anything people should be recommending you grotesques.

I would advise the CC option, Grots, Beasts, ect.
 
If you really want to go with shooting you need to make good use of the focus fire rules.
 
Check out the 3++ blog to see what I mean.

in addition to Grots, maybe a Talos or Chronos, but he said he wanted a shooty solution.

@Mushkilla I do like Grots and have read your reports on effective use of them, but my problem is wondering how they will survive basic weapon fire. A squad of 12 fire warriors will do some serious damage to these guys, in the realms of...wait, they only average 2 wounds a turn without markerlight support? I thought it would be much higher... 

I'm starting to think the resilience of grots is not related to it's high toughness or FnP, but both of those in combination with its high wound total.

@Malevolent Storm You are correct in that I was looking for a shooting solution, but I guess shooting lists with no hammers are not the best versus tau...

Grots are resilient to a combination of T5, 3 wounds and FNP. Loss of any one of those makes them a whole lot worse. I find that my grots don't get many wounds made against them due to the T5 and then if i fail a fnp (likely haha) then hey they are still alive because that guy has a ton of wounds. The best part is hiding an archon in that majority T5 unit.

If you are willing to open the door to assault units, you will give yourself a lot more possibilities.