Torrent weapons and template placement

Mushkilla wrote:

Shrike423 wrote:

Dreadknight deepstruck in and flamers the archon's empty raider and the warrior raider, causing a hull point on the empty one and stunning the latter.

This was an illegal move if the diagram is accurate. BRB page 52 states that "the template must be placed to that cover as much of the vehicle as possible". Torrent weapons are still treated as template weapons for this, so there was no way he could clip both raiders unless they were less than an inch away from each other.

It's a legal move due to torrent rule. You get to place the narrow end of template anywhere within 12" of DK and then the other end so that it is further wasy from DK. So you can place the template on top of one raider while targeting the other even if its ~8" distant.

Doesn't the torrent rule state: "The weapon is then treated like any other template weapon." So has to follow the same restrictions?

Mushkilla wrote:

Doesn't the torrent rule state: "The weapon is then treated like any other template weapon." So has to follow the same restrictions?

Now I need to check my rulebook.

But even the part you quoted has the "then". It implies the before it it doesn't follow restrictions of template.

I'd still say first measure under 12" to any point within range. Then follow template rules.

But as I said I need to check the BRB

Mushkilla wrote:

Doesn't the torrent rule state: "The weapon is then treated like any other template weapon." So has to follow the same restrictions?

Yes it does.

BRB, Pg43 wrote:

The weapon is then treated like any other Template weapon

Internet wrote:

Torrent: pg 43 "When firing a weapon with this special rule, place the template so that the narrow end of the template is within 12'' of the weapon and the wide end of the template is no closer to the weapon than the wide end. The weapon is then treated as any other Template weapon"

It states that you can freely select the place within 12". After that you need to maximize the area covered by your target. It says nowhere that the target needs to be the first vehicle/unit along the template.

The "treat the weapon as normal teplate" is stated after selecting the initial point.

BRB Pg. 52
"Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible."

This makes it difficult to hit subsequent vehicles because the template has to cover the initial target as much as possible.

Hope this clears things up.

Vasara wrote:

Internet wrote:

Torrent: pg 43 "When firing a weapon with this special rule, place the template so that the narrow end of the template is within 12'' of the weapon and the wide end of the template is no closer to the weapon than the wide end. The weapon is then treated as any other Template weapon"

It states that you can freely select the place within 12". After that you need to maximize the area covered by your target. It says nowhere that the target needs to be the first vehicle/unit along the template.

The "treat the weapon as normal teplate" is stated after selecting the initial point.

Nobody is saying that you have to fire at the first model but the template has to be placed to cover as much of the target vehicle as possible.

BRB, Pg 52 wrote:

Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without touching a friendly model.

This will almost always prevent it from touching a second vehicle unless the vehicles are extremely close together.

Must confess, it's something I'd forgotten and will need to remind my friend about, as he plays with a Helldrake and often puts the template across multiple vehicles.

4a. Please refrain from double posting. You may "bump" a post every 48hrs if you feel you are not getting responses. Double posts in project logs are acceptable. /Your friendly mod SS

This should be separate thread, so sorry for the OT

A situation where St Celestine jumps next to Cult Limuosine wich is 2" wide. 5" further apart from the first Limousine is another similar vehicle. St C. targets the second one but can only cover it app 1/2". The one closer to it gets most of the heavy flamer. Now it hits two targets right?

Same thing with allied Dreadknight fireing from 9" away from Ct Celestines place. Lets assume St. C's heavy flamer didn't penetrate limousines AV9 hull and DK gets to shoot same spot. The template is plased exactly on the same spot as St. Celestines since the spot is less than 12" from the DK. Target is the same second Limousine but the one closer to St. Celetine gets hit also.

Why would the DK's flaming be wrong?

It can be done but it's not normally the case and you're getting into situations where you won't be making too many friends by saying that vehicle B is your target even though 90% of the template is over a different unit.

But you're right, this debate does need to be split into it's own thread in the rules forum.

Here Mushy, Mushy Mushy!!

Woof!

Mushkilla wrote:

Woof!

Okay, own up! Which one of you covered Mush in petrol?

It was me but I didn't light the match  

Ok, ok! It was a joint effort ;)Alright, I'll kick off the discussion by agreeing with vasara on declaring a further away vehicle to be the target. Yes it can be pain because vehicle A will be hit as well, but there is nothing stating otherwise. Anyway, how many strength 7 or 8 torrent flamers do we encounter on a regular basis? I can only think of eldar night spinners. Normally the worst is the baleflamer or an incinerator. The later is mounted on a really expensive model that can possibly pull off one round of shooting before being put down, unless you are right in his deployment zone in which case you have significant back up or are playing the alpha strike game wrong. As for drakes, they are overpowered enough and this new gimmick in my opinion won't make much of a difference. CSM players prefer to vector strike our transports and flame the contents, they don't tend to waste their shots on a couple of raiders when there are tastier things like reavers and scourges flying about. Overall, this issue impacts the game very little even as seen in my report (the worst result being a stunned result).
That's just my opinion.
If anyone has contradictions feel free to fire away.

Pardon that last pun

4a. Please refrain from double posting. You may "bump" a post every 48hrs if you feel you are not getting responses. Double posts in project logs are acceptable. /Your friendly mod SS

I don't think there's anything wrong with the reasoning that Vasara has set out but it is a slippery slope. For example, I've seen people arguing that if they have a dreadnought with a heavy flamer, they can fire their other weapon at Unit A and then fire the flamer at a completely different unit because they are still ensuring the template "covers as many models in the target unit as possible". It's just in this case the number of models is zero!

But you would lay out the template and figure wounds to apply prior to ever removing models from a given unit. The order is hitting, then wounding, and then saves - so if you're firing multiple weapons you still do all your hits and wounds first and in that order, so it wouldn't be possible to have Dread do what you're describing even if we wanted to accept that it's possible to target a unit that is dead (which it isn't possible with a flamer)

Count Adhemar wrote:

I don't think there's anything wrong with the reasoning that Vasara has set out but it is a slippery slope. For example, I've seen people arguing that if they have a dreadnought with a heavy flamer, they can fire their other weapon at Unit A and then fire the flamer at a completely different unit because they are still ensuring the template "covers as many models in the target unit as possible". It's just in this case the number of models is zero!

In that case the flamer is unable to shoot as its out of range.

For the original topic:
You first place the template to desired position and then follow rest of the teplate rules. Right?

Vasara wrote:

In that case the flamer is unable to shoot as its out of range.

As long as at least one weapon is in range then the flamer can still shoot. Pg 12

Quote :

CHECK RANGE
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. At least one weapon must be in range of the target unit.

So as long as the other weapon is in range the flamer gets to shoot too. The rules are worded so that you have to cover "as many models in the target unit as possible". If zero is as many models as possible then you've fulfilled the criteria.

To fire a template weapon you still need to be a firing model.
To be a firing model you still need to be within range with your individual weapon. (pg 12) The rule about only one model being in range simply allows those models in range to fire even if not all can (so a lascannon isn't restricted to 24" range when paired with some yokels packing lasrifles)
The range of a template weapon is 'template'.
If you can get '0' models of the target under the template, than you are not in range of the target unit and cannot fire.

Thor, that is almost certainly the intent but it is not what the rules actually say. Check out page 12 for general info and page 52 for template weapons. Nothing in either section prevents what I was describing.

I don't agree with it and would never use it but I don't really see it as being any different to what Vasara was saying about claiming unit B to be your target, barely scraping unit B with the template but hitting half a dozen models in unit A who are between you and unit B. To my mind, that would mean unit A is your target but again, that's not what the rules actually say.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Thor, that is almost certainly the intent but it is not what the rules actually say.

I will admit I disagree.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Check out page 12 for general info and page 52 for template weapons. Nothing in either section prevents what I was describing.

Check out page 12 and look for the rules on firing models - how do you get to decide if you can fire?
If your argument is that template weapons have no range then it isn't possible to ever fire them - they have a range, it is 'template'. If their target isn't under the template they are not in range and cannot fire.

Count Adhemar wrote:

I don't agree with it and would never use it but I don't really see it as being any different to what Vasara was saying about claiming unit B to be your target, barely scraping unit B with the template but hitting half a dozen models in unit A who are between you and unit B. To my mind, that would mean unit A is your target but again, that's not what the rules actually say.

Yeah, but I do have to admit Vasara's method at least works within the rules in a way I cannot refute, which makes it different for me. With a locked back end that is free from the template rules wording, as long as he places the template to then put as much of the target as possible under the template then it is fair game.

It's no different than if there is a thin line of guardsmen in front of you and a blob of Psykers behind them, and you want to fry the sanctioned Psykers - you can shoot the guardsmen, hit them with the thin part of the flamer near your base, and hit far more of the Psyker squad - and no one would argue that this wasn't legit within the rules.

Firing a weapon that is not in range (and also doing so at a different target than your unit) is explicitly against the rules in a number of ways.