1850 Competition List

Hi Guys

Been lurking here for a while but decided to post something up as I am trying to get a list together for a tournament and need some help.

My list has been doing good so far 9/10 games won in local games.

HQ
Baron Sarthonix

Elites
4x Blasterborn - Venom (2x SC, FF & NS)
4x Blasterborn - Venom (2x SC, FF & NS)
4x Blasterborn - Venom (2x SC, FF & NS)

Troops
10x Kabalite Warriors - Raider (Dissie, FF, NS, SR)
10x Kabalite Warriors - Raider (Dissie, FF, NS, SR)
10x Kabalite Warriors - Raider (Dissie, FF, NS, SR)

Fast Attack
5x Scourges - 2x Dark Lance, 3x Shardcarbines

Heavy Support
1x Ravager - (3x Dark Lance, FF, NS)
1x Ravager - (3x Dark Lance, FF, NS)
1x Ravager - (3x Dark Lance, FF, NS)

Fortification
1x Imperial Bastion - Icarus or Quad Gun (PTS FOR EITHER)


Baron is on the gun on the Bastion (3+ Cover + Stealth or his 2+ Invul against high Strength Weapons) and the Scourges are inside the bastion firing off the Heavy Bolters and the Dark Lances.

General tactics are to stay out of range and kite the enemy around the board. If a drop pod or something deep strikes nearby just alpha strike it out of existence next turn.

I had been using Reaver and a 10 man Scourge squad but they die too easily and generally dont kill much so I decided the Bastion was a better idea (covered in skulls, stupid Marine Decorators!).

What do you think, what would you change?

Cheers

Shin

When I look at that list I see an army well built to deal with infantry, but that will suffer from any meched up army, and also have a lot of problems if any assault unit is quick enough to actually press them.

Do you have very limited mech in your local playgroup? If not, how do you deal with something that is quick moving and shooting in vehicles (Like, for example, an Ork Battlewagon list, a Wave Serpent heavy Eldar build, even a basic Helturkey CSM list or Flying Circus Daemon list seems like it would cause you a lot of issues...well, maybe not the Circus, you probably have the tools to handle that as long as he can't box you in)

I feel the big hole in the list is the amount of points sunk into the Bastion, which is relatively easy to deal with for most lists, and also your lack of ability to hurt mech beyond 24" from you, which a number of armies can and do use quite well. I'll also admit I'm unsure why anyone would bother shooting at the Baron as opposed to just wrecking the Bastion - he and the Scourges would mostly be dealt with just by that, and it's not like you have any other targets to draw the attention of his anti-tank shooting. I'd probably switch it up, I'll admit more Ravagers or more Warriors would really be more effective firepower - and since you don't seem to want to bother with assault there are better HQs than Baron Sathypants for that (a simple Archon+Blaster comes to mind) unless you're really focused on that +1 roll, but I don't think he's worth it just for that without a unit he can synergize with.

Updated the list, it is meant to have 3 Ravagers not 1

I could take 3 Dark Lances on the Raiders as opposed to the Disintegrators however I usually prefer the 9 AP2 S5 shots for dealing with things like Terminators rather than have to fire off the Ravagers at them.

The Bastion is sort of important in the list as its my only for of Skyfire. I have played quite a few games where I have fired all 3 Ravagers at a flyer and missed with every shot which is a little concerning and a bit of a waste of shots.

The Bastion is also AV14 which is pretty decent.

The reason I opted for the Bastion was because there was not much else I could take that would live long enough otherwise. I have tried out using Reavers and Scourges and they just get owned all the time. I could of course take more troops but I think the Skyfire weapon on the Bastion as well as the Dark Lances / Heavy Bolters will be more effective than a few more AI poison shots and 1 Dark Lance.

For the same price as another Kabalite Squad (180) I am getting 4 higher AV (Bastion compared to a Raider), 2 Dark Lances (compared to 1 on the Raider if I took it) and 3 Heavy Bolters which are arguably better than a solitary Splinter Cannon I could take in the Warrior Squad on a Raider.

I could swap out the Raiders Dissies for Dark Lances on reflection now that I have the Bolters on the Bastion, I would still however have to start shooting off the Trueborns Blasters at anything with 2+ armor.

As far as killing fast things go that is always going to be an issue. DE dont have any Ignore Armor Weapons so the Ravagers, Scourges, Lascannon and the Blasterborn will have to deal with those.

As it stands without any changes I have.

11 Dark Lances (S8, AP2, 36")
12 Blasters (S8, AP2, 18")
1 Icarus Lascannon (S9, AP2, 92")
3 Disintegrators (9 S5 AP2, 36")
6 Splinter Cannons (36")
4 Heavy Bolters (36") - Probably only 2 usable though because of placement.
30 Splinter Rifles (24") - Rerollable
3 Shardcarbines (18") - If the Scourges are not manning Heavy Bolters.

I think the list has a pretty decent balance of AI and AV for the most part.

Shingen wrote:

Updated the list, it is meant to have 3 Ravagers not 1

That does make a difference and though I'll continue in a similar vein with my discussion below that is a drastic improvement of the list.

Shingen wrote:

The Bastion is sort of important in the list as its my only for of Skyfire. I have played quite a few games where I have fired all 3 Ravagers at a flyer and missed with every shot which is a little concerning and a bit of a waste of shots.

Well, first off, if only 1 weapon with Skyfire is all you need to solve your flying problems, then you don't have problems with flyers and can probably just manuver around them rather than fighting them.

Also, missing 9 lance shots needing a 6 to hit is just terrible luck and is unusual, it isn't a reason to change a strategy around.

Shingen wrote:

For the same price as another Kabalite Squad (180) I am getting 4 higher AV (Bastion compared to a Raider), 2 Dark Lances (compared to 1 on the Raider if I took it) and 3 Heavy Bolters which are arguably better than a solitary Splinter Cannon I could take in the Warrior Squad on a Raider.

Well, first off, you're comparing 215 (250 w. emplacement) points to 180 points. I do hope that 215 compares favorably to 180 - if it doesn't than the 215 option is blatantly a bad idea in every way.

Second off, let's count numbers this way;
215 - Bastion + Scourges w. 2 Lances
125 (250 for 2) - 5 Man Warrior squad w. Venom.

Bastion has AV 14, 3 H. Bolters (who have to fire on the same target, and thus do have some los issues to bring all three to bear) and 2 lances (that have to fire on the same target as the H. Bolters...and last I checked Bolters and Dark Lances do *not* share optimal targets.

Venom has AV 10...but also an invulnerable save, making it actually harder to kill with melta and lascannons than a Bastion.It does have a weakness to, say, heavy bolters though, I'll admit.
It also has a lance weapon.
Anti-infantry shooting that *doesn't* have to target the same unit as its anti-mech shooting.
Gives you a scoring unit.
Is maneuverable, which will help your 'kiting' strategy.

So, for basically what you're paying for the Bastion you're gaining multiple target shooting, maneuverability, more anti-infantry fire, and two scoring units, work better with your indicated mobile gunline gameplay, and are actually not all that much more vulnerable to death except from certain weapons (i.e. h.bolters)

Now, if the Bastion works for you, that's great! The people I play would pop that thing in one round (and that building going down would kill the Scourges for sure, maybe the Baron too) without too many issues and its best use to me would be as los blocking terrain. But that's where I play, where people field lists with melta weaponry and rail guns and the like. If you don't experience that then maybe the Bastion is a perfect idea for your list - but the above is just why I consider it not such a good buy.

Shingen wrote:

I could swap out the Raiders Dissies for Dark Lances on reflection now that I have the Bolters on the Bastion, I would still however have to start shooting off the Trueborns Blasters at anything with 2+ armor.

How much 2+ armor do you face...and when you face a lot of 2+ armor what are your poison shooting units doing? Usually when I have only one unit of Termies to kill, firing lances and blasters at them is fine because those guys are like a tank. And if there are a lot of Termies, well, then I likely don't have any other infantry to shoot so I can throw poison shots at them, and poison kills Termies only 50% less effectively then it kills regular Marines. Poison kills anything with a toughness value, sometimes you need to shoot a lot, but that's what poison is for. So, I have Lances/Blasters that can shoot mech, or Termies, or MCs and be good at killing them.

You know what Dissies are good at killing?

Termies.

And...that's it. They are sub-par versus MCs. Near useless against most vehicles, and are okay versus infantry, albeit kind of a waste if you have a lot of poison shooting.

I, personally, take Lances because they are more universally good against a wide range of units. I will admit I build for tournaments where you need to be ready to do battle against a lot of different types of lists - but that's why I choose Lances over Dissies no matter what, because no matter what type of army I face the Lance will be really good at killing something, be it multi-wound models via instant death, Landraiders, or Termies. Dissies...if there are no Terms, then Dissies are kinda 'meh'.

Shingen wrote:

As far as killing fast things go that is always going to be an issue. DE dont have any Ignore Armor Weapons so the Ravagers, Scourges, Lascannon and the Blasterborn will have to deal with those.

I don't think killing fast things is an issue for DE, because we're one of the fastest armies in the game (with only Eldar remotely able to argue that they might be faster...and I kinda don't think they are)

The issue with your army is you have a lack of a way to take apart fast things before they are an issue. You're certainly better off now with +2 Ravagers, but functionally you have 4 shots (the Scourges w. lances, and the Ravagers) to take out any transport vehicle coming for you to unleash the hurt. You also only have those 4 shots to snipe at any big long range threat that the enemy army has. So that's 4 potential targets you can damage.

Take if you were to fight my DE list, for instance. If I got first turn I could shoot my 3 Ravagers and also my 6 Raiders at a total of 9 different targets. That could pretty easily allow me to dismantle your Ravagers and probably bust up your Bastion too. Now, what is your response? I'm in vehicles, so I'm totally immune to your poison shooting. That leaves you bum rushing your Trueblasters forward, and it's quite possible I'm out of range of them at this stage. Maybe your Bastion is still up (and isn't just snap firing) and can do some damage, but then on Round 2 my army will still be pretty fresh and can shoot yours apart.

I would submit it would go similar for you versus a Mech Eldar build. Same with a mech IG build. Same with some Space Marine builds.

Now, as I've said, maybe you don't see those builds and it's not an issue - but your army is actually really incapable of putting much long range hurt on an opponent, so any opponent that can effectively fight you at 36" in vehicles is going to steamroll this list unless he plays very badly and that is what I'm cautioning you on as far as the build goes.

I also think you have some issues with quick/mechanized assault based forces, but you could actually still outfight and outplay them to a certain degree, so it's not as big of a concern. But the ability to wreck their vehicles prior to them getting halfway across the board is very important in getting a tempo advantage on that type of army as well.

Shingen wrote:

I think the list has a pretty decent balance of AI and AV for the most part.

It has a balance, but I think it has limited targeting control and options within that balance, which actually then makes it not balanced - if that makes sense.

Fair points for the most part. The only thing I can think of to take your ideas in account would be to drop to 8 or 9 man kabalite squads and stick them all in Raiders.

Its all about range control and line of sight. I always try to go second and stay out of range and line of sight first turn to deny shooting options. That depends on the opponents list though of course.

The list is 8/8 wins so far in its current format so it does work, you have made some good points though for me to consider.