Very competitive IG player, need help!

So its been a while. Me and a few mates have scheduled a game for next week. My team mate will be using daemons and we will be facing guard and most likely a marine/chaos marine army. Now, its been a while, I've been distracted with a Salamanders army for a fair bit and feel the need to come back to the dark side!

Straight to the point. The IG will be a veteran force/air cavalry type army. That means Valkyries/Vendettas, up to 5 of them :/ On top of that, I can expect punisher tanks (up to 3), hellhounds (up to 3) and lemon rusks (more than General Patton). This has given me huge grief in the past, the player is very competent and knows how to pound Dark Eldar. I can usually give him a run for his money however I am a tad worried as the daemon player has very little anti-tank. On top of that, the force has to be able to cope with some flavour of marines as well ranging from chaos, vanilla, blood angels or ravenwing.
I am flummoxed! I have no idea what direction to go in!

So please, any ideas? This guy will play very competitive and it's about time his IG suffered!
As far as my available models go, I have a lot of everything except for wracks and grots. Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Take a Revenant?   





Sorry, the idea of competitive 40k play has kind of gone the way of the dodo in my mind.
With what he's bringing and with being allied to Daemons I'd say the following;

Get the Daemon Player to bring some princes/GDs for anti-air. (Slaanesh marked Princes with lash and Iron Arm are a treat)
The rest of the Daemon force ought to do really quite well versus the likely minimal infantry units the army will have.
Then just maximize your army to kill mech - lances, blasters, hwg packing Wyches, et al.

Pop the Punishers early, work on from there, let the Princes smack down the flyers, and then just lance spam everything else to death. Daemons and HWG Wyches ought to be able to handle cleanup afterwards pretty easy.

Yeah, the initial list I thought of will be blaster spam. The larger issue, certainly with HWG wyches is if there is going to be a marine army with the IG then you can expect it to be heavy bolter spam. If its anything like how he plays then the chances of getting anything into assault range/having any vehicles left will be minimal. Guess I need to strongly confer with my team mate!

Grub wrote:

Yeah, the initial list I thought of will be blaster spam. The larger issue, certainly with HWG wyches is if there is going to be a marine army with the IG then you can expect it to be heavy bolter spam. If its anything like how he plays then the chances of getting anything into assault range/having any vehicles left will be minimal. Guess I need to strongly confer with my team mate!

The Marine player is going with heavy bolter spam and you find that worrying? Bolter spam is a joke because by the time he can use it it's already too late. Just have your Daemon buddy field some hounds and go munch on dumb Marines fielding bolter spam. Heck, go lance spam and then just destroy all the vehicles while ignoring the heavy bolters.

With heavy bolters *you* are the one deciding when he can shoot at your army, which means by the time he can shoot you should already be blowing up IG stuff, and if you somehow can't then the IG stuff is set up in a way that you ought to be able to set up your army on one board side or the other and invalidate a lot of Marine *and* IG shooting, in which case it's 100% of your army versus >100% of his, and that's the recipe of win last I checked. Being scared of heavy bolters is like being scared of melta gun spam - we're the maneuverable army. Maneuver.

Don't get me wrong. I know what to do with marines. You say that we can decide when Heavy bolter marines get to shoot at us, I would argue that it entirely depends on scenery, mission and turn. If he mingles his armies, which will undoubtedly happen because he is very competent, he will sit back. Yes nightshields will counter that 36" threat bubble but then you have to rely on dissies to get rid of those devastators/marines which is not ideal when facing an IG mech list.
In my experience a heavy bolter defence is nothing like a melta defence. Meltas will pretty much wreck each of our vehicles with or without double penetration but at 24", take away nightshields and they are limited to 18". Yes manoeuvre away, you can hit them, they cant hit you, no problems there. Bolter spam though, 36" minus the nightshields, even being surgical and careful you will be wrecked or done for against that, particularly if you have to focus on anti tank to allow the daemons to take out infantry.
I will focus on destroying flanks, utilising the whole force against half etc etc I know how to play this army with all due respect, but if he creates a central block say, with punishers and bolters at the rear ( which is a 99% given), if I am to get within range of dangerous stuff at the front he will coax me into their range, I will get rinsed. As for manoeuvrability goes, it is countered by the fact that I will have to go in for the kill, strike hard and close in order to pop as many vehicles as possible. This will result in me being pinged to death by 2nd plus turn. It is inevitable unfortunately. To fully utilise our anti tank you have to get close and play risky. This in turn is a massive gamble as my opponent will concentrate fire onto taking out all my anti tank, which, when it does go down, will result in the daemons being peppered by vehicles. See where the issue is?

Well then you've thought of everything and you're still doomed? Have the demons rush w/dogs, seekers and princes, take as many lances as possible, and pray for night fighting.

Honestly...no.

Now, admittedly you're painting me a picture without telling me the colors, but let's just re-state what I understand the situation to be;

3 Punishers
4+ IG flyers
around 3 Hellhounds (though I will admit this seems like a weakness in his army, not a strength)
+ Even more Leman Russes
+ A Marine army featuring Dev and Tac H.Bolter spam.

That means I'm thinking you're fielding around 2500 points of DE in addition to getting Daemon support of around at least 1500.

Now, first off - a Daemon player who can't handle the 4 flyers and taking care of your Dev/Tac "problem" is a daemon player with either a limited collection or lack of ability at the game, or perhaps both. And if you're hamstrung that badly then...I dunno what to say to you; get a better partner? Maybe switch up the Marine and Daemoon players to make it more fair? I dunno. But the Daemon player *should* be able to handle that with a rather basic Flying Circus/Dog build, he could do even vastly better for you if he wanted to field Screamerstar or something, but you don't need a competitive Circus list to be able to eat IG/MEQ infantry and bat a few flyers from the skies.

So, my advice was for the Daemon player to handle what DE are bad at and Daemons are good at (killing flyers) and, once you added the wrinkle of H.Bolter spamming Marines (a sub standard build versus basically everything except DE...and of only moderate use against them) I indicated the Daemons could also handle that.

Leaving the DE's job to kill the expected waves of tanks and Punishers and what-not.

Now, you then come back with a response to me that seems to be asking me how can DE handle *both* enemy armies and the difficulties that they will have in trying to do that.

Yes. Your solo army of DE (of around 2500 in my mind) will have trouble dealing with my expected enemy force that you are describing that is 4000+ of enemy units...but I wasn't aware you had to deal with them solo because...y'know...DAEMONS! I mean, if the enemy sets up a shield wall of mech with the Marines and Punishers in the back...then roll up and unleash your lances and let the daemons get in position using the cover of the smashed vehicles the Marines and Punishers are hiding behind, leaving him the option of shooting from within his crumbling battle lines and wide open to Daemonic assault that will shred his rear armor (because, y'know, Hounds, and Nettes, and Princes, and lots of other Daemonic tools are actually really, really good at killing vehicles with AV 10 rear armor) Also, you have presumably tossed some Wyches in there as well. Yes, the Punishers will pretty much end what they shoot at, that's what Punishers do. Even the H.Bolter squads will reap a toll, but if they're wasting (yes, I say wasting) Punishers on anythign that isn't the Daemons at their doorstep, then they are doomed. And that means your 2,500 points of DE needs to weather whatever shooting he can get into place with his H.Bolters...which, really, ought to be survivable. Yes, hings will die, but I'm presuming you have other things and those won't die.

I guess in short I feel you're doing two things;

1. Noting that we are a glass hammer (which, yes, we are. Yes, we will die. That's why you should field a lot of redundant units so it's hard for him to kill you quickly enough for the glass part to matter, and until the glass part matters you're still a hammer)

2. Asking for advice to fight two armies with one army even though with Daemons you have one of the most potent codices in the game as an ally, and a tool that is excellent at smashing literally everything you're fighting, and is fast enough to be in assault Turn 2 with multiple alternate builds.


So, what is the specific concern here? Is the Daemon player indeed just dead and useless weight and you need to carry the whole shebang? Because if so...well, presuming your opponents know which way is up then you'll probably have a hard time of it and it has nothing to do with strategy. Is the problem simply awareness that DE will die in assaulting an IG list? I feel that goes without saying, and I still don't understand the issue there. You also act like, somehow, you're the only answer to dealing with vehicles, when to my mind Daemonettes, Hounds, Princes, Grinders, GDs, et al are all really quite solid at ripping apart vehicles, so it's not like death of DE = auto lose if there happens to be a tank still n the board, so, no, I don't see what the issue is.

Can you maybe clarify what the lists and points will be, maybe that will help me understand the issue?

Or, I dunno, I feel like you're getting frustrated with my answers because you feel I'm talking to you like a newb DE general, but I feel like you're bringing up really basic concerns and acting like they matter. It's quite possible I'm drastically off with something I'm saying or believing in my preconceptions about the game, can you maybe clue me into what those are? Is it, maybe, like a 2500 point list you need to build but you only own 6 vehicles or something? I feel like we're talking past each other right now and it's not helping me understand and address your concerns, and it's not helping you explain your actual issues.

Make sense? Any clarification you see that can help here?

Sorry if I came across short, it wasn't intended! Points will be two lots of 1500 on each side. The IG player may go for two IG lists or he may stick in one of his marine armies (A Ravenwing bike list could be problematic with that scout move if they were to hold up both armies in the midfield). The daemon player is a competent player (only just got the new codex however) and I'm not sure what models he has for example but I know they should be fine.
I guess my worries are due to playing these lists before and just getting rinsed quicker then you can say "failed-another-jink" or "Dark-Glance". In the past what usually happens is all my transports get wrecked in the midfield, often killing most of the passengers in a glorious explosion, then the survivors get mown down. With daemons being cheaper now I guess that my opponent will have to spread his fire out.
Unfortunately my army has taken a serious vehicle hit as 2 of my raiders (only 3 left and 3 venoms) and other infantry were, to put it politely, ravaged by my dog and are in no state to be used So I am quite limited now which means that there won't be that target saturation from my side.
Apologies again if I came across like an arse

Personally, I would not worry about Ravenwing in the slightest. You can out manouvere them and out shoot them with impunity. If he advances them to stall, rejoice. You can hang back and snipe away at them while the Demons get to hit combat earlier.

I can't really say much about IG and Demons and what not, but if your transports keep exploding, don't put your troops in them and send them into range. From the sounds of it, the best thing you can do in this battle is to hide at the back and provide fire support for the Demons, before nabbing objectives at the end.

wanderingblade wrote:

From the sounds of it, the best thing you can do in this battle is to hide at the back and provide fire support for the Demons, before nabbing objectives at the end.

This is poor advice I feel. There is not a DE build in existence that can sit back and offer fire support versus IG in a meaningful way. DE are not a sit back and fire support kind of army because we don't generate enough damage at that range. Our optimal positioning has, and likely will remain, midboard or literally in the middle of the enemy army. That's where we do the most damage. If we sit back and trade long range shooting than either we'll be blasted off the table, or will have only limited effect. The Daemons are going to be a rush build pretty much by definition because that's what Daemons do - he should maximize the target saturation and rush with them to increase the effect, not split forces and allow the enemy to prioritize easier.

@Grub - so you literally actually only have 6 vehicles for a 1500 build? Wel...that's going to sting, and, yeah, that's why your opponent is able to kill you so quickly. There's not much you can do about that. I'd probably say build the six transports as well as you can, probably Wyches/Trueborns in the Venoms, and just move up to support the daemons as you are able.

Can you field Grots? Some Grots could be helpful to absorb points for you and would combo nicely with pretty much whatever the Daemon player does, also they would absorb a lot of firepower if the IG player decided he wanted them dead rather than assaulting. Some Grots in a Raider might work nicely for you.

Yeah it was a major sting. Don't accidentally leave a puppy in your workstation! You wouldn't believe what they can chew through! Yeah, 6 vehicles is a painful experience, just losing two severely impacted my lists! What I may have to do is salvage what I can and try and papercraft construct the other parts. However, if it looks shoddy I won't really use them! I don't own any grots, love the models, hate the GW price!
The lack of vehicles is my most major flaw with this set up. But, what would you suggest, do I try and replace the raiders or salvage what I can to create venoms?
(Merry Christmas btw!)

Clearly I needed to read your posts more closely Thor, as I thought you were advocating such a response based on the emphasis placed on tank killing and outmanouvering the heavy bolters. I don't see how joining his advance particularly helps with the latter at least.

Maybe some stuff like Reavers - or deep striking Scourges - might help with getting stranded in no man's land by exploding vehicles?

edit: Not that I'd generally advocate deep striking scourges mind.

wanderingblade wrote:

Clearly I needed to read your posts more closely Thor, as I thought you were advocating such a response based on the emphasis placed on tank killing and outmanouvering the heavy bolters. I don't see how joining his advance particularly helps with the latter at least.

It depends what you mean. When I hear "hide in the back" my thought is "hide in your deployment zone" whereas, when outmaneuvering h.bolters and providing fire support I personally think the optimal location for the army is probably somewhere mid-field. If what you meant was that he should hang back in mid field providing shooting support then I am more in agreement with you. If you meant that he should deploy on or near his board edge and try to stay back there then I disagree with you.

I would always try and get as close as possible if I'm honest. Midfield shooting is great but I find against defensive armies, its great to rattle them by being right on them. If he is running mech for example, sometimes the safest place is right up close to his tanks to try and get that side/rear AV plus the possibility of blocking LoS using his lunchboxes as cover.

I was contemplating reavers, perhaps a few dash in heatlances could be quite potent. I have 12 to play with and they could be a pain if they can get into the back field, even if it is simply to draw a bit of fire away as the few vehicles I have move up, any thoughts?