Space Wolf torment! In depth tactical ideas based on a a battle report is needed please!

Hiya fellow denizens of the darkness,

I'd like to ask for some advice about dealing with hunkered down Marine infantry (space puppies to be specific).

I got my first 1.5k game in last night against the dreaded puppies and I have yet to gain a win over these damned annoying marines. My opponent went entirely infantry with the ever common dual longfang units (2 units of 6 longfangs led by a terminator armoured guy with cyclone missile launcher. Each unit was then accompanied by a Wolf Priest in termie armour. He then took 4 solid units of standard infantry; 10-12 in each I believe with his most central unit containing Njarl Stormcaller) led by a terminator and containing a mark of wulfen marine as well as a flamer and meltagun in each. Lot of toys like wolf talismans etc were taken wherever he could.

I went with a very varied list as I wanted to try lots of different concepts and units out (only had 1 game of 6th previous to this and that was over a year ago! Used to play 5th quite a lot however).

Haemie warlord*
Venom Blade Liquifier, WWP (didn't read the FAQ that you can't assault out of them now - WTF?!)

3 Incubi (in WWP)

6 Mandrakes (wanted to test out the Haemie disembarks gives them a pain token, they then guard the WWP)

5 Blaster born (4 blasters+spare body for exploding venom)
Venom + 2 SCs
Nightshields

9 Wracks* (Haemie starts with these boys)
Liquifier
Acothyst + Venom Blade
Raider
Dissies (anti termies) and Torment GLs

10 Wyches
Haywire grenades
Raider
Dissies

7 Kabalite Warriors
Blaster

3 Reavers
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

Talos (WWP)
Liquifiers

Talos (WWP)
Liquifiers

Chronos
Spirit Vortex

We played a kill point mission lengthways along the board with nightfighting to start the game. I rolled highest but chose to deploy second and left seize the initiative. Looking back I think that I would have been better to take first turn. My thinking was, if I remain over 36" away, all of his rocket launchers will be denied and he effectively wastes a turn.

The tabled was covered by quite a lot of large ruins and a hill in either corner (top left and bottom right).

He deployed fairly symmetrically with one of longfang units+priest on the top left hill with 2 of the marine squads next to them.

a large ruin seperated his army and his remaining forces piled around a bunker building on the other side of this ruin; the longfangs piled in together on the top of the bunker with both infantry squads sat in front/beneath it. There must have been about 24" that divided the two with the ruin occupying the centre of this rift.

I decided that the best plan would be to deal with one half of his army and then run away/hide! As a result I piled most of mine behind the best LOS blocking ruin I could find that also contained a 3 floor system up (rules query here - does the max 2" apart rule prevent a squad from being spread over several different floors? I wasn't sure if you measured to the model or base when calculating verticle distance)

So the Wych Raider, Wrack Raider, Blastervenom and warrior squad hid behind this ruin (as far forward as I could manage without being in 36" range of the longfangs on the hill opposite). The Chronos sat to the left of the boats and the Reavers sat behind a very large ruin in the centre of my deployment zone.

Both Talos and Incubi hid in the WWP and I forfeited Seize the Initiative.

The actual batrep can be found HERE

Tactically speaking I think my heart was in the right place: I tried to be sneaky and use as much cover, combo charges and focused shooting as possible. I just couldn't deal with the dual longfangs and wolf priests easily enough. I think my opponent fluffed his deployment and spread himself out, no doubt thinking he'd cover any avenue I came up. Luckily nightfighting started the game and I should have made better use of rolling first turn. I have a feeling if I'd done this then I wouldn't have deployed much more differently and my opponent would have piled together to defend the top left hill which would have been a nightmare to deal with!

Other than that I was too free with leaving my vehicles open (was obsessed with getting the haemie out of the boat ready to drop the WWP and join the mandrakes so that the incubi/talos wouldn't have to footslog from my (very long way away!) board edge.

The bike units were brilliant and their turbo boost is horrific for opponents to deal with or predict where you'll end up. The caltrops, though expensive seemed like a worthwhile upgrade - I roll poorly with them but they still did well as the 2+ to wound makes a difference and could be particularly useful VS termies by simply torrenting the attacks. I really think 2 units of 6 would've been better however, each with an arena champion with power weapon to deal with being charged / allowing an option for charging to finish units off.

I forgot combat drugs all game until the end! DOH! Rolled it up and it was re-roll run moves so no biggie to lose. The wyches really weren't that great and I can see the woes of being snap fired at too: not so much that wyches shooting defence sucks but more the being negated of being out of range for random charge distance rolling...

I would say that I'd have liked to have traded a Talos for a Jet but frankly, with all those missile launchers that wouldn't have been much better either!

The incubi were included as a specialist counter attackers but ended up leading the charge on 2 desperate last 'bag it' moves, neither of which pulled off due to poor rolls. I'll save my judgement on small units of them for another time when I can appropriately see how they do.

The wracks were awesome at taking damage (still confused about the missile launcher damage that finished them off...) but their damage output didn't seem like enough and the liquifier was too random.

The mandrakes I could see potential with (particularly vs eldar/Imp Guard equiv) as their assault 2 str 4 AP 4 shots are actually quite good and helped finish that SW larger unit in front of their building. They sucked in assault (no grenade equivalents hurt them).

I've read now that WWPs cannot be assaulted out of, as if they weren't hard enough to play already but hell, I love a challenge! Shooting unit support seems like the best remaining use for them (blasterborn / scourge delivery?!). The talos again can't easily be judged but frankly I think that the dual liquifiers are no longer a good choice on them for fear of killing off the guys you are about to assault and so derping you out of charge range/keeping you in combat during the opponents turn so that you can't be shot. The Chronos was awesome to a large extent - the pie plate shots at 18" were good but at BS 3 I can see this being frustrating at times. The template spirit syphon could be a good change instead as more hits occur reliably through this, although to reach you enemy you have to first survive (hence the pain token on itself first).

Overall I think that to deal with an entrenched enemy like a SW army, you'd have to hit them with everything at one point in their line, then consolidate/hide into cover only to surge back out again. Having both talos on the table could be a good way to draw fire but they're also heavy hitters in combat to deal with termies if the incubi die.

I'm not entirely sure if this is making sense but I forse the Space Wolf defence list being a tough nut to crack, particularly with someone like Njarl leading it!

Any thoughts / comments / constructive critiques?

I started playing 40k 6 years ago to a guy who played space wolves.

You are spot on correct, you have to hit them all at once. The sad thing is the WWP doesnt really do that for you. We normally give up first blood fairly easily and allowing for the hemon to get out and put down a WWP risks losing warlord also. so maybe WWP isnt the way to go but if you want a challenge good luck.

The kid i'm teaching to play picked up wolves and is at 2k right now running njaal. Tricks when playing against him.
-He's bad in CC, few attacks low strength sure it's a force weapon but most people dont leave a charge on him to use it.
-Most his scary weather happenings are 18-24 inches. splinter cannons are 36, see the point?
-Night sheilds will never help you against him. . .it says models within 18 inches so it's not physically targetting you decreasing the range wont work (benefit of the doubt here) also living lightning is infinite. . .infinite -6 is still pain.

Space wolves in general are hilarious to play against though because they are marines but better and want to entrench themselves because of counter attack and 2 CCW. If you have them drop the cronos add more bikes. Forcing long fangs to take leadership checks from losing guys will help ur vehicles survive.

Please drop the mandrakes, they look ok on paper but logically make no sense and dont work for 6th. If you like the idea of a unit for the hemon to join to after the portal that can benefit from his pain token look into grots STR6 attacks on the charge or i found hellions taking the hemon pain token makes them more resilient

You seem to have a sense of what isn't working, I would only offer list advice really. You need more shooting and less do-nothing units (wyches, mandrakes, incubi) especially against a bunch of PA and no vehicles I would recommend full-dissie ravagers and a hell of a lot more splinter cannons, be they on splinterborn or venoms. Alternatively, there is something to be said for outranging all his missles with lances and nightshields

Drop the talos,cronos and mandrakes..they are garbage imo.

More KW's..these are a must! 10 man squad with SC.

You need ravagers..with disintegrators(oh yes)..9 str 5 ap 1 shots and watch his wolves die in droves.

More venoms if possible,extra splinter cannon..stay at long range and pound your targets.

Night shields on anything that skims.

The Haemie can work ok with the wracks..it's a cheap hq and I love the liquefier.

Wychs(haywire) are tough,I'm using them but in small squads(in a venom) for the random landraider that shows up at tourneys.

I'm a long time wolves player,so I know it can be tough on us fragile pointy ears.

Some really great thoughts here, thanks guys for the feedback, its very much appreciated! I think in many ways I'm limiting myself by trying to combine both fluffy/background appropriate lists with still pushing for the win at any cost! Its like I'm deliberately giving myself a handicap at times but I just love a challenge!

I've had my dark eldar since their new incarnation touched down, but didn't make all the models (yet). As a result I tend to only play with what I've made up, perhaps adding a few 'counts as' models to trial new units before deciding whether to buy the kits or not (I'm not rich!)

I know in the back of my mind that the army I WANT to try and make work won't ever fully do as well as other DE lists because its simply not optimal. I'll try and clarify what I mean...

@ Rionnay: yeah the WWP was definitely a limiting factor, its such a shame really as I'm in love with the concept so much - the thought of a portal to an alternate dimension appearing on the board with all sorts of nasties come flying through is just too good. The fact it is considered sub-par useful makes me want to push for it to work even more!

I think you're right about the Haemie. I'm desperate to make mandrakes work, but I wonder if this is a case of trying to run before being able to walk. I need to get to grips with the core concepts of our units before trying to push through a tactic based on one of the worst units in our book.
Looking back at Njarl, my opponent didn't put any warp charges on his weapon. I'll keep an eye on that in the future. It seems best to weaken his unit and then torrent him to death through either shooting or combat attacks. Splinter Cannons definitely hold higher value for me now, thanks! I'm strongly considering going for the non-mech mobile force using the baron, a solid unit of hellions backed up by footslogging dark lancer warriors, lots of reavers and some craftworld allies (Seer+more jetbikes for shooting JSJ support). HEREs the army I'm on about.

@ Eohali: I like the Nightshield concept, and that should work on all 3 weapons you mention as they're all 36" ranges. Perhaps a Nightshield gunboat force would be worthwhile in the future, I'll definitely have to try that! I mentioned earlier that I seem to deliberately handicap myself in list making... Another example of this is that I'm not really keen on the Ravager as a unit concept! The models don't really do if for me somehow (in either edition) and I don't think that the unit would fit my playstyle very well. Still, thats no reason not to give them a shot! (poor pun )

@ Denizen: yeah I really like our basic troop warriors actually, I especially like them in gunboats but almost always have suffered with them being shot down turn 1. This likely has something to do with the minimalist approach I tend to take with boats (ie I never have many of them!), I need to invest in some more models to counter this. 10 man squads with SCs sound great with Splinter Racks on the boats. Is it worth bothering with Nightshields on your basic gunboat? I never really know how to kit them out - mine tend to end up with nothing or loads of bling...

Ditto to Eohali's comment regarding Ravagers, I think I'm really missing out on the gun party in this one eh? Shame that the pain engines aren't exactly efficient eh? I'm drool over those models haha! Still again, I think this is another case of trying to run before walking. Talos / Chronos seem to be subsiduary units to an army - mostly there to mop up whatever is left behind, whist the Chronos needs to get up close and personal to dish out the pain tokens. Usually by that point its too late (either your units are crippled or dead or your enemy is... )

What do any of you gentlemen think about duality as a concept in Dark Eldar? Abusepuppy seems to push hard for this on 4chan (or whatever blog site its called). It doesn't seem to make much sense to me - surely you're more efficient by dedicating a primary role to each unit and they stick that objective until it is complete, only then supporting other units that require help if needed...

NIGHTSHIELDS on ANYTHING that skims baby!
Flickerfields as well,Tau shooting at you with their no cover BS still gives you a save.

Push forward at break neck speed,your transports wont live to the end anyway.

Venoms hang back at 36 inches and sling those poisoned shots down range

The trick to beating wolves is to take out their longfangs.

So, you'll want reavers and anything that can hold a splinter cannon. Set up opposing the likely places where he'll hide those Longfangs.

Also, you played a killpoints mission. Dark Eldar kind of auto-lose those every single time. If it's kp, expect to go down.

When I played wolves I always gave the long fangs a rhino.
A lot of people in 6th edition are forgetting about vehicles thinking they're too fragile.

But yes Long Fangs are a huge concern..split fire can bring your units down very easy.
Like the baron said,gun them down ASAP!

A bigger concern is a SW player in Drop Pods with 1st turn.
Serious problem there for a lot of armies.

Mobility is key for a DE army.
Shoot and Scoot.

Yeah drop pods are annoying as hell! As tips for dealing with them? I'd guess 5-man haywire wyches but the enemy's short ranged missile launchers (on the pods) and infantry squad / dreadnought that arrives via each one kinda makes that a hard trick to pull with your armour 6+ units.

I'm going to start a thread on Kill Point missions as I believe you're right there Baron.

Denizen, yeah the razorback/rhino spam seems to have gone out the window these days - I think that its still a solid tactic; perhaps not as 'broken' as before but still perfectly viable.

Also, I read the BRB just now and, as I interpret it, it says that Split Fire only allows one model from the unit to choose a different target, not the entire unit. They also have to take a Ld test to be able to do this - something I didn't realise before...

No wolves don't take a leadership test to split fire..it's automatic.

And they can split their fire any way they want..3 missile launchers at this target 3 at the other..but they have to declare when splitting.Good for everything that comes down the pike.

There's really no way to deal with drop pods unless you let him go 1st and take the Duke and deep strike your units in to counter his drop.
They HAVE to bring in half of their pods(rounding up) on the 1st turn.

Wolves are tougher than regular SM's..more special weapons in their squads plus extra attacks due to a CCW and bolt pistol + counter assault and the dreaded Wolf Standard.
Point for point they are STILL the best troops in the game IMO.

I have been playing DE since 3rd ed and I play against SW all the time. I have one puppy friend who has not made it past turn 4 against me. How do I spank him EVERY time? Dark light weapons... Lots of them. Long fangs die first, then Njal, Then everything else. But I run a Warrior/ Wych Run and gun list. I drop the FF and NS and just bring more dudes (and ladies). Everybody walks home no matter how much equipment you throw at a venom/raider.

If you are truly committed to the WWP though, I have a thought. Instead of brining assault troops through, bring blasterborn/splinterborn, Hellions or just huge units of kabilites with splinter cannons. You can shoot out of the portal.