Dark Eldar Codex Review

I'm pretty sure that just makes you even more Dark Eldar-y.

HERO wrote:

No hard feelings at all, I welcome it all.

In fact, after 5 years of running my blog, I got my first hate mail today from my article that's now mirrored on BoLS.

I was basically called "Betrayer of the Dark Kin".  crap, I think it would be hilarious to set that as my title on this site, if that's even possible.

Haha! Hate mail? Yeesh...

You were probably winding everyone up with your whining

Betrayer of the Dark Kin would be a cracker. On that note, (**noob question alert**) how do I get a shiny lovely picture for my profile?

Anyway, back on topic: View PfP as a end-game buff for an already aggressive army as opposed to a strictly necessary tool that's worth waiting around for.

One unit I would really like to reserve, however, is a Webway Archon with Armour of Misery, PGL and Blaster accompanied by 4 Medusae in a Venom or 5 Trueborn in a Raider with TGL. Nice little shooty unit to plop right in the thick of the action, with leadership shenanigans to boot.

HERO wrote:

But hey, if you enjoy it, so be it.  A lot of gaming veterans say otherwise, but don't let us longbeards drive you away from your hobby.

And a lot of 'gaming veterans' are quite satisfied with the book, all things considered. Having played with DE pre-2010 does not make one a village elder, with the long white beard, the stoop, the prodigiously high forehead, the deep set eyes within that wizened face, and the creaking of the booooones....

Expletive Deleted wrote:

And I haven't made my mind up whether GW is doing these rapid releases as a cash grab or to bring the codices in line.

They're nearing the end of a major restructuring. I don't know if you've ever participated in a long project involving lots of people, but what happens is that you schedule your jobs and manage your resources because if you fail to deliver X by Y date, then Z can't go ahead with A and everyone gets thrown of schedule, lots of money is lost, and you're given a handful of pencils in a cup to go and sell in a corner.

So you're doing fine, and then N_ comes along and tells you that C_ is falling behind and they need to borrow G_ from you away from the Dark Eldar project to catch up on A. You're on schedule with some time to spare, so okay; you can still work on the packaging in the meantime and put some work into B, because you're already looking ahead to the next deadline. Then suddenly P_ rings you up to say that Apple needs the final edit by Friday so that they can release the iBook on schedule. But G_ is still working on A so he sends D_ instead

'How far behind are we?' asks D_, of course. 'It's almost finished,' says G_. 'It only needs one final edit.' So D_ gives it a read, and even though he hasn't been through it from the beginning, it looks good enough to him, and they're waiting for him to work on Z. So he makes a few corrections and sends it off to print.

In other words, it isn't an evil plan. It's just deadlines and lots of overworked people. As if you never woke up one day and realised that the school project that you had four weeks to finish is due in half an hour and you haven't finished it!

Barking Agatha wrote:

In other words, it isn't an evil plan. It's just deadlines and lots of overworked people. As if you never woke up one day and realised that the school project that you had four weeks to finish is due in half an hour and you haven't finished it!

This sums up my thoughts on the release schedule. I still feel like they are giving us more tools and options to play our game in a larger variety of game types, which is always a good thing in my book.

Quote :

And a lot of 'gaming veterans' are quite satisfied with the book, all things considered. Having played with DE pre-2010 does not make one a village elder, with the long white beard, the stoop, the prodigiously high forehead, the deep set eyes within that wizened face, and the creaking of the booooones....

You can still be a "veteran" and play very casually with an under-developed meta.

HERO wrote:

Quote :

And a lot of 'gaming veterans' are quite satisfied with the book, all things considered. Having played with DE pre-2010 does not make one a village elder, with the long white beard, the stoop, the prodigiously high forehead, the deep set eyes within that wizened face, and the creaking of the booooones....

You can still be a "veteran" and play very casually with an under-developed meta.

You alone have walked the path of hardship and wisdom, for you have fasted beneath the sun, at the top of a ten-foot pole! Look, the point I'm trying to make is that you're entitled to your opinion, and it's a valid opinion, but it's not more valid than anyone else's. Not even if you liked the Dark Eldar before they got 'commercial'.

WrackYourBrains wrote:

On that note, (**noob question alert**) how do I get a shiny lovely picture for my profile?

Click on 'Profile' (Under 'Welcome to Commorragh' on the Dark City logo). Then click on 'Avatar' (tiny script under that), et voila!

I don't think pfp is going to turn our army into one that can withstand long assaults and win through attrition. I think ou misunderstood me. I'm under no illusion that we need to pick our fights carefully and unfairly and hit hard. I don't understand your statement of sitting back and waiting for Pfp... did you do that last codex when we still didn't have it early game? Yes you had to kill something to get it before, but if you didn't kill a unit, you didn't get it and if you did, only for a single unit.

Now our whole army benefits. What's more imo we are able to hit harder than last codex because of the price drops - some units got a 6 point per model drop! - which means we can have larger units or include more gear.

Also your complaint about hitting turn 1 is unfounded. Some armies can DS or have other gimmicks on turn 1 nut it's a game wide rule for no assaults on game turn 1 now. No one gets that.

I think you're mixing up reality with what I think PfP should have been Sensei.

Price drops are there, but so are points increases where they didn't need it.

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I don't understand your statement of sitting back and waiting for Pfp... did you do that last codex when we still didn't have it early game? Yes you had to kill something to get it before, but if you didn't kill a unit, you didn't get it and if you did, only for a single unit.

Of course not, because I actually understand that 5+ FNP means absolute jack crap to the army.  We didn't need it in the 3rd Ed. dex, and we didn't need it in the 5th, or even now.  The army does not play that way, it's not intended to take saves, and that's why I've won so many games with my Dark Eldar over the years and army books.  And that's why I think the PfP system does not work well with the army's overall design.  Why even care about attrition when the army realistically does not care?

Quote :

You alone have walked the path of hardship and wisdom, for you have fasted beneath the sun, at the top of a ten-foot pole! Look, the point I'm trying to make is that you're entitled to your opinion, and it's a valid opinion, but it's not more valid than anyone else's. Not even if you liked the Dark Eldar before they got 'commercial'. Wink

Of course not, but I would have rather walked the path than not at all. At least that way, I can write my honest reviews with the book's competitive worth in mind.

So if you don't care about getting it and never did in the past, how does it encourage you to do nothing now? You can play your army exactly the way you always have and absolutely nothing will be different except you will gain army wide fnp eventually. If you don't think 33% fewer casualties is something beneficial to your army whether it needs it or not, just don't take he saves. I'm sure yu opponent won't mind.

Sensei wrote:

So if you don't care about getting it and never did in the past, how does it encourage you to do nothing now? You can play your army exactly the way you always have and absolutely nothing will be different except you will gain army wide fnp eventually. If you don't think 33% fewer casualties is something beneficial to your army whether it needs it or not, just don't take he saves. I'm sure yu opponent won't mind.

I think there's a disconnect here how you're viewing my argument for PfP. The confusion lies between the design intent and actual practicality. Like I said in the article, in terms of what they were shooting for in the fantasy (meaning, from how they view the army and how it translates to table-top), they did a fine job. I just think it's not practical

If I was to follow the PfP table's initial design, I would have reversed the table. If I was to do my own thing, I wouldn't even have PfP.

yeah i'm not getting how PFP is soo terrible either? its probably the best thing to happen to the codex. possible FNP5+ t2 with animus vitea and always gained t3..
Then if ya factor in night fighting might happen on T1, so little damage to your army here. i'm just not getting your point of view.

Infact even though some units got nerfed they still have very practical uses... beast master squad, 11 khymera and a beastmaster. small hard hitting nuisance squad very very cheap.

Wyches, hide until t3, reserve if necessary, with FNP they become combat monsters, yes they lost haywire but we have gained a lot of anti-tank elsewhere in the dex.

Hellions, still shooty as hell, cheap cost, have massive movement, can hide in cover until they gain FNP getting shots off at 18", so a 30" threat bubble, then they become CC monsters for a cheap unit..

i chose the worst 3 units, because i really do think this army has gotten a lot better.. yes there's nerfs. but PFP is really really good.

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If those 3 armies give you trouble, maybe you convince your opponent to start your 3 Voidraven Bombers on the table turn 1 like they did in that propaganda approved White Dwarf BR, ha!

LOL, very nice.

Some people actually asked me how I would do the PfP, and I told them I would get rid of it completely and just stay with the whole "strike first out of nowhere".

I would have written a blanket rule that affected the army as such:

"If the army contains only models from the Codex: Dark Eldar, you will always Seize the Initiative.  In addition, all models that are normally in Reserve can be called onto the battlefield on Turn 1 on a roll of 3+".

So yes, that means you will be able to DS onto the board on Turn 1, and call in Flyers as well.  Don't go all hardcore and kill me, I'm just saying what I would have done if I was to design the book (among other things).

And if you don't like what you read so far from me, here's another review:
http://spikeybitsblog.com/2014/10/in-depth-dark-eldar-codex-reveiw.html
and another
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/10/salvaging-dark-eldar/

Selvhan wrote:

aurynn wrote:

@Selvhan - please show me where Tau ignore cover "most of the time". :-)

You never played against the TAU to ask me that or you are trolling me.

TAU use marker light to upgrade their BS and to ignore cover. They have the pathfinder who are mostly there to do that job. So TAU suit with BS 5 ignore cover is no joke.

I am sorry if it sounded like trolling. I was serious. And it was kindly meant. I know where the ignore cover comes from. But still this is not "most of the time". Pathfinders are not tough to deal with very fast. And thus are lucky to get off one round of ignore cover shooting before you can either shoot them or lock them in CC without dedicating that much to the task.

aurynn wrote:

Selvhan wrote:

aurynn wrote:

@Selvhan - please show me where Tau ignore cover "most of the time". :-)

You never played against the TAU to ask me that or you are trolling me.

TAU use marker light to upgrade their BS and to ignore cover. They have the pathfinder who are mostly there to do that job. So TAU suit with BS 5 ignore cover is no joke.

I am sorry if it sounded like trolling. I was serious. And it was kindly meant. I know where the ignore cover comes from. But still this is not "most of the time". Pathfinders are not tough to deal with very fast. And thus are lucky to get off one round of ignore cover shooting before you can either shoot them or lock them in CC without dedicating that much to the task.

What about the Commander or his army of Marker Drones? The entire army is ridden with high-S, Ignore Armor and has options for Interceptor. It's going to be a tough sell no matter what.

The 3 armies that pose the greatest threat to DE is: Mechdar, Tau and the tried-and-true, IG.

HERO wrote:

And if you don't like what you read so far from me, here's another review:
http://spikeybitsblog.com/2014/10/in-depth-dark-eldar-codex-reveiw.html
and another
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/10/salvaging-dark-eldar/

I will say that 3++ has increasingly become more and more difficult to read. It's either a post by Kirby saying he's been busy and will be getting back to posting soon (but doesn't and continues a cycle of apology posts) or AbusePuppy giving himself every reason in the world on why he should stop playing (every codex is garbage to him at this point so I don't know why he still has an interest in this game).

SBB's post was good though, good find on that one.

KiriONE wrote:

HERO wrote:

And if you don't like what you read so far from me, here's another review:
http://spikeybitsblog.com/2014/10/in-depth-dark-eldar-codex-reveiw.html
and another
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/10/salvaging-dark-eldar/

I will say that 3++ has increasingly become more and more difficult to read.  It's either a post by Kirby saying he's been busy and will be getting back to posting soon (but doesn't and continues a cycle of apology posts) or AbusePuppy giving himself every reason in the world on why he should stop playing (every codex is garbage to him at this point so I don't know why he still has an interest in this game).

SBB's post was good though, good find on that one.

I dunno. The SBB one wasn't a review at all, just a list of the changes. No actual opinions or reviewing involved. As a whole I'm seeing a lot of doom and gloom, but comparatively few people are taking the 'big picture' approach. Yes, we lost a lot of uniqueness and there's been a great deal of simplification, some of which are very much "why?" moments (Dark Lances being the biggest one that leaps to mind, as much as I dislike it I can see the justifications for removing Haywires from wyches), but in terms of late 6th and new 7th edition Codices we seem to be fitting in quite well. I like the intent to try and get all the codices towards roughly the same level, even if it does mean some simplification as a result.

Panic_Puppet wrote:

KiriONE wrote:

HERO wrote:

And if you don't like what you read so far from me, here's another review:
http://spikeybitsblog.com/2014/10/in-depth-dark-eldar-codex-reveiw.html
and another
http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/10/salvaging-dark-eldar/

I will say that 3++ has increasingly become more and more difficult to read.  It's either a post by Kirby saying he's been busy and will be getting back to posting soon (but doesn't and continues a cycle of apology posts) or AbusePuppy giving himself every reason in the world on why he should stop playing (every codex is garbage to him at this point so I don't know why he still has an interest in this game).

SBB's post was good though, good find on that one.

I dunno. The SBB one wasn't a review at all, just a list of the changes. No actual opinions or reviewing involved. As a whole I'm seeing a lot of doom and gloom, but comparatively few people are taking the 'big picture' approach. Yes, we lost a lot of uniqueness and there's been a great deal of simplification, some of which are very much "why?" moments (Dark Lances being the biggest one that leaps to mind, as much as I dislike it I can see the justifications for removing Haywires from wyches), but in terms of late 6th and new 7th edition Codices we seem to be fitting in quite well. I like the intent to try and get all the codices towards roughly the same level, even if it does mean some simplification as a result.

But how do you know they haven't taken the big picture approach?

Tau, Eldar and IG all have gotten new books relatively, so unless they re-do those books very very soon, we're always going to be on the backburner competitively. You will see DE splashed in with Eldar, and that's for our WWPs. My friend is already thinking about ways to incorporate as many pin-point DS options into his Eldar lists as we speak.

I'm very big picture, I refuse to write a review without looking at the competitive metagame and what this means for our army, and our performance vs. all other armies out there. It's not looking good.

As for SBB's review, yes, it's very much an overview of what has changed. It was not a strategic or tactical post of any sort. That will come later, just as I intend to do. Normally, it's better to overview with your impressions of the book before you write more indepth, it allows you to refer back with a simple link rather than type type type.

Here's a review from a very competitive crowd that was positive by the guys over at frontline gaming.

Yeah the book isn't amazing, but it definitely nowhere near as bad as you are making it out to be, our array of deployment options is massive, our transports are still awesome, and the new power from pain ties in really well with our tempo based play style (using reserves).

I also strongly disagree with Dark Eldar being all about the alpha strike, that sort of game play is dull, you either kill enough of your opponent to win the game on turn one, or don't and lose by turn 2. It's way to inconsistent, and leads to one of the players having a boring game.

One of my most memorable games patiently dissecting my opponents army killing a handful of key units over 3 turns before overwhelming him en mass turn 4-6. The new power from pain ties in with this playstyle beautifully. Ruthless patients, a predator slowly maiming his prey, until the time is right to strike with overwhelming force.

I've never played with or against Dark Eldar. I wasn't really that interested until I started seeing some of the new models. Listened to the Splintermind podcast and read the codex. As a mono-Slaanesh Daemon army, I look at your codex and feel very jealous. You have everything I want with my daemon army, fast transports, long range heavy weapons and lots of great shooting weapons....

Perhaps the army is no longer the point at the enemy and pull the trigger type any more. But I have way more fun when I'm trying to be more strategic and coming up with plans on how I'm going to deal with my opponent.

I'm now very prepared to start a DE army....

Mushkilla wrote:

Here's a review from a very competitive crowd that was positive by the guys over at frontline gaming.

Yeah the book isn't amazing, but it definitely nowhere near as bad as you are making it out to be, our array of deployment options is massive, our transports are still awesome, and the new power from pain ties in really well with our tempo based play style (using reserves).

I also strongly disagree with Dark Eldar being all about the alpha strike, that sort of game play is dull, you either kill enough of your opponent to win the game on turn one, or don't and lose by turn 2. It's way to inconsistent, and leads to one of the players having a boring game.

One of my most memorable games patiently dissecting my opponents army killing a handful of key units over 3 turns before overwhelming him en mass turn 4-6. The new power from pain ties in with this playstyle beautifully. Ruthless patients, a predator slowly maiming his prey, until the time is right to strike with overwhelming force.

How is that positive?  I had a talk with them and for the most part, they're scrapping up what they can from the codex and taking it as an Eldar supplement.

I mean in their review:
The Warlord traits are garbage.
The Relics are largely junk
Vehicles generally got worse in the terms that they have more expensive or worse upgrades than they did
Grenades…or the lack thereof.

Yes, you can take more vehicles, but you have to pay for them.  They are not free, nor did they get a points decrease like some of you think.  It blows my mind when people tell me they got a points decrease when the 55 point Raider is still 60 with the Lance that you have to upgrade from.  The same can be said about the Venom if you want to buy the additional Splinter Cannon.

So this means that you're either loading it up with mass Venoms, mass Razorwings, or whatever else you can spam to the max if you want to take a detachment.

Like I said before, and many times that the WWP is what we're here for.  The god damn book is basically a Eldar player's dream and they wish they could pin-point drop Fire Dragons/Wraithguard anywhere they want.  I know ALL the Eldar players in my area, at FLG, at 3++, and in other competitive metas around the world are all talking about the same thing because I'm IN the frak discussion. Don't think for one second that I haven't thought about how I can lame as hard as I can with this army book, complete with Max haywire blasters, razorwing and heat lance jet bikes with WWP shenanigans.

Sure man, keep your head high, be that proud and arrogant Archon.  But know that deep down inside, your army will be second-string to Eldar as WWP-bitch for the duration of this codex. You should know that I'm a living salt-mine right now since all these competitive players know me to be die-hard DE.

Bowlzee wrote:

I've never played with or against Dark Eldar. I wasn't really that interested until I started seeing some of the new models. Listened to the Splintermind podcast and read the codex. As a mono-Slaanesh Daemon army, I look at your codex and feel very jealous. You have everything I want with my daemon army, fast transports, long range heavy weapons and lots of great shooting weapons....

Perhaps the army is no longer the point at the enemy and pull the trigger type any more. But I have way more fun when I'm trying to be more strategic and coming up with plans on how I'm going to deal with my opponent.

I'm now very prepared to start a DE army....

Join us
Great to see you here Bowlzee! We do the first part of our codex review in Episode 2 released tomorrow.

HERO wrote:

Sure man, keep your head high, be that proud and arrogant Archon.  But know that deep down inside, your army will be second-string to Eldar as WWP-bitch for the duration of this codex. You should know that I'm a living salt-mine right now since all these competitive players know me to be die-hard DE.

I don't think such a foreboding retort is necessary.

I honestly think you would be less disheartened if you actually considered coven units (according to your blog, your not a fan). I can understand thinking the book is terrible when you won't consider two of the more solid units in the book (grots and talos). Personally I think Talos have great synergy with our army. They mean we can start something on the board turn 1 which isn't made out of wet paper, whilst the rest of the army is in reserve. But that's just me.

Mushkilla wrote:

HERO wrote:

Sure man, keep your head high, be that proud and arrogant Archon.  But know that deep down inside, your army will be second-string to Eldar as WWP-bitch for the duration of this codex. You should know that I'm a living salt-mine right now since all these competitive players know me to be die-hard DE.

I don't think such a foreboding retort is necessary.

I honestly think you would be less disheartened if you actually considered coven units (according to your blog, your not a fan). I can understand thinking the book is terrible when you won't consider two of the more solid units in the book (grots and talos). Personally I think Talos have great synergy with our army. They mean we can start something on the board turn 1 which isn't made out of wet paper, whilst the rest of the army is in reserve. But that's just me.

I agree with this completely. Having read the book through carefully, it seems to me that making a successful DE list (as with a lot of armies) is about taking a complete mix of units from the codex. Each has a job to do in your overall strategy. I don't own a single coven unit, but I'm planning on buying three Talos/Cronos, a Haemonculus and some grotesques to fit my army plan for this edition. I don't have an issue with this, it means I get more nice models to build and paint then play with!

As I've said elsewhere, I think it's kinda funny that Eldar players, who have in my opinion the best, most versatile book in the game, are looking at our codex to make some of their units viable.

Panic_Puppet wrote:

I dunno. The SBB one wasn't a review at all, just a list of the changes. No actual opinions or reviewing involved. As a whole I'm seeing a lot of doom and gloom, but comparatively few people are taking the 'big picture' approach. Yes, we lost a lot of uniqueness and there's been a great deal of simplification, some of which are very much "why?" moments (Dark Lances being the biggest one that leaps to mind, as much as I dislike it I can see the justifications for removing Haywires from wyches), but in terms of late 6th and new 7th edition Codices we seem to be fitting in quite well. I like the intent to try and get all the codices towards roughly the same level, even if it does mean some simplification as a result.

I look at the bigger picture and ask "Why have they released a group of codices that fall below a power level set from March to September 2013". The late 6th releases were not what I'd call well balanced either - Inquisition and Legion of the Damned were strong additions to Imperial armies, not sure if they still are, and there are of course Imperial Knights, which are basically meta defining. There are more codices on that very strong level from 6th than there are on the weaker level - just about - so in choosing to make the 7th ed armies in line with things like Nids and Chaos Space Marines, they've given themselves more work to do in balancing everything out. There's a minimum of five books they need to re-release and it's questionable as to whether they'll actually do it. Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Nids, AM, they could have been patched up with supplements - even if not and they have to release new codices, it's less work to do. And I suspect that at most gaming clubs, the tendency for players to gravitate towards the stronger armies means it would have been simpler to balance by making more strong armies than more weak armies anyway.

For now, not knowing the future, the armies of 7th are at a handicap to the top armies of 6th. I don't see any particular joy to being in that category and I don't see why they decided to go with this path. I don't see either why people link simplification to balance. There are complex games which are more balanced and there are simple games which are less. I understand that a simpler game does, in theory, lead to less playtesting needed but that doesn't mean a more balanced game and if you're chucking away complicated rules and introducing simpler rules, the rule replacement logically means more playtesting. What's more, sometimes a new special rule is the simplest way to balance things. It's easier to balance Ravagers with Aerial Assault, it's easier to balance Leman Russes with a working version of Lumbering Behemoth, it's easier to balance Land Raiders with Power of the Machine Spirit. Why shouldn't units break the rules if that's the easiest way to represent the unit?

In the big picture, I personally believe that 40K is taking a bad road with its design processes. I accept that not everyone will agree. In the big picture, while I think it is possible they might finally get a set of balanced codices providing they go and redo a large number of codices with unusual alacrity while sticking to their guns with unusual consistency, it seems very unlikely these codices will be internally balanced. Internal balance should be just as important. What happened with the Wyches is just awful game design. No one would have griped about losing Haywire if they'd got something in return.

---

Finally, while I feel 90pc certain that in tournaments we will just become the WWP carriers that Hero talks about - if that, it's a bloody expensive way to get accurate Deep Strike - I also reckon that a large percentage of us don't play mainly in super-hard metas. Player skill and a thorough appreciation of the codex will carry many Dark Eldar players a long way in their local game stores and clubs. But that will not work in tournaments.

I wish there was a snappier way of putting it.