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 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis

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PostSubject: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 02:53

With the recent rumors prior to the dark eldar codex, I can't say that I was excited for this release. In a time prior to those rumors, I would have been first in line at the very minute of release for the codex. I'd have had the clear plastic torn off the cover in my car before I ever got out of the parking lot, and I'd have likely immediately camped out reading the entirety of the book in all it's glory, only pulling away for food or bathroom breaks, until I was finished. Not this time.
On release day, I slept in. I got out of bed, did some unremarkable busy-stuff, ran some errands, ate, etc. Then, I went to my FLGS, about 3-4 hours after release, and purchased my copy of the book. After doing so, I had some other errands to run, so did some shopping and went home. I had purchased a new RAM setup for my computer as well, so I put that all together first, upgrading my computer. Then I played a video game, cooked and ate dinner, and watched an episode of the walking dead. Only AFTER all those things did I finally come to my new codex, remove the plastic, and open the book.

It was at that moment that I decided to defer my disappointment just a bit further. I decided to read through all of the fluff first, and the timeline, as that might perhaps justify the rumors that I'd heard. I made it through most of the fluff before the monotany of reading the same fluff I had read before got to me. I finally skipped ahead to the timeline, referencing our old codex to see which entries were new, and read through them. Vect was still there! Malys too, and they were the stars of the show insofar as the timeline was concerned! Perhaps the rumors were wrong? Perhaps vect was, in fact, included in the codex. Maybe we got to keep our special characters, including my beloved Duke Sliscus?

I quickly flipped through the central, art portion of the book till I landed squarely at the beginning of the new rules/units section. I flitted through, but alas, no Vect, no Malys, no Baron, and no Duke. Very dissappointing to say the least.

I spent the next couple hours pouring over all of the rules for weapons, vehicles, and units found in the new codex, referencing them against the rulebook with an eye on wording. At the conclusion of what ended up being about a 5 hour binge session with the book, I felt...empty. Then that emptyness turned to disgust with GW. The loss of our special characters stung, most certainly. Other negative changes were also littered throughout the book, which I will outline below, but there were also some significant improvements to other units. And that is what drove my disgust. You see, units that weren't really that OP to begin with got stepped on, nerfed, whatever you want to call it, and units that no one used because they sucked got boosts that essentially made them fill the roll that the unit they nerfed used to fill. What does that mean for us, the customers? Well, it means that a large portion of our armies, the ones we pay thousands of dollars for, are now useless. If we want to enjoy our games, and not be utterly worthless against pretty much everything, we're going to need to invest in these other models that we don't have because they used to suck.

Now, please, before the GW appologists come out of the woodwork to crucify me, just understand what I'm saying. We are the victims of the corporate profit machine right now. The codex was not designed solely on what they felt was balanced/good for the story, but rather based on what they could do to "force" us to buy models. Entice me, GW, I want to be enticed. I've come to your stores to spend my money. Make awesome things that make me want to spend it more, but there is no reason to nerf an already underpowered unit to make your new unit more appealing! I would have bought the new unit anyhow! Now, I am just bitter that I own hundreds of dollars in models that I will likely not be using.

Yes, they may come out with a supplement. But really...come on. A new codex($50), two new supplements($50 each), pigeonholing us into abandoning half our current army and investing in new models for old sucky units that are now our staple AT...it just reeks of cash grab. I feel like an old dish towel that they're putting through the ringer, trying to squeeze out every last drop of cash from me before I'm no longer useful to them. And forget about me convincing other friends to try the hobby. I don't lie to my friends, and so, talking about potentially getting into 40k never makes it far past "How much is it?" If they didn't try to kick everyone in the nuts over their prices, we might be able to help them have more people playing the game, therefore continuing to make them the same amount of money, while having a more healthy, thriving community. But no, nutkick, gimme your money, now GTFO, but buy these new models first, you'll need em. ::winkwink:: But enough of the talk about GW's financial practices. By now, we should all know they're the evil empire. On to the rules...


What's New?





Power from pain:

The old pain token system is gone, replaced by a system that grants the entire army abilities based on the turn number. Being very fragile at the beginning of the game, and being guaranteed to be more surviveable towards the end of the game, should they survive, I think we'll start seeing DE played a bit differently to best utilize this effect.

Dark Eldar Wargear:

Power weapons - Pretty much all the power weapons we had access to previously are now just power swords. Gonna need to adjust your models accordingly.

Archite Glaive - Only available to the succubus, this AP2 weapon may be used either 1handed for S:User, or two-handed for +1S. Price just slightly higher than a basic power weapon, it's worth every point.

Agonizer is now properly listed as an AP3 poisoned weapon.

Heat lances are slightly cheaper.

Splinter cannons are salvo, which doesn't effect our vehicles at all. As for our troops, it does make cannons less attractive for mobile soldiers, leaving splinter cannons primarily as either a vehicle upgrade, or best in a gun line.

Haywire grenades are now only obtainable on characters, making them mostly a points sink. COULD be useful if you happened to be within striking distance of a vehicle with only 1 HP left, but it would likely mean you're either seperating the character from their unit, or wasting the entire unit's attacks on a vehicle they can't hurt in order to get 1 shot at putting 1 hp on a vehicle.

Soul-trap has been changed to add +1S for each wound eliminated in a challenge. This is sort of a mixed blessing. It gives you benefits as you go for a challenge that lasts more than 1 combat phase, but makes it to where you don't get as much for killing an IC with 1-2 wounds as you did before.

Huskblade is now cheaper by nearly a third, but only AP3.

Phantasm Grenade Launcher/Torment Grenade Launcher - These have been altered significantly. The old effect has been removed from each of them and replaced with the ability to fire a small blast projectile that kills units based on how much they fail a leadership test by. With a couple ways of lowering leadership, this is a novel idea, but it comes at the cost of our most reliable, army-wide leadership manipulation vehicle upgrade, and the only upgrade we had to provide grenades to units that didn't get the option to take them. This is a HUGE hit to the codex, imo.

Clonefield now just gives a 4++. Easy. Overpriced. Boring.

Shadowfield now persists until the end of the combat phase in which it was defeated. No more rolling dice 1 by 1. This can be useful for lots of low strength fire, but doesn't really make a difference against middle strength or better, since you're going to get instakilled by S6 on the first penetration anyhow.

Webway Portal has been changed to allow the model carrying it, it's unit, and it's transport to deep strike without scattering. I like this change, and believe that we'll start seeing these used with much more frequency.

Venom blade can only be taken by an acothyst now. This is a change I didn't see coming, and not particularly welcome. It hurts our ICs and upgrade characters' versatility for no discernable reason.

The electrocorrosive whip has lost it's special rule to become a 5+ poisoned, AP3 melee weapon with the concussive special rule. At nearly the cost of an agonizer, you're probably better off with an agonizer on nearly everything.

Liquifier Gun was unnecessarily nerfed to be S3, as if we didn't have enough S3 to deal with already in melee. Then they raised the price on it by 50%.

Wych cult weapons have been revamped, with the hydra gauntlets giving shred and AP5, the razorflails now only reroll to hit instead of both to hit and wound, and shardnet now rerolls to hit and wound, but only on 1's. They're now each half the price they were before. Ultimately, still not really great, and much less unique than before.

Enhanced aethersails allow a vehicle to flat-out 24 inches. Cannot be taken by venoms. Since all of our vehicles are fast skimmers, this basically means enhanced aethersails give us an additional 6 inches of movement when moving flat out.

Chain snares now allow you to tank shock, but not to ram.

Shock prow now causes your vehicle to be considered AV14 during ramming attempts. Good change.

Splinter racks now work on all splinter weapons. This would be very helpful, except that splinter cannons have become salvo, lowering their range to 18 inches when shot by infantry inside a moving vehicle, and trueborn no longer have access to sharcarbines. So basically, they made splinter racks work on all splinter weapons, but it doesn't matter because the only weapons you'll see inside them are splinter rifles and splinter pistols(from wyches).

Night shields now provide stealth to vehicles. Far less unique than the previous ruling, and therefore doesn't stack with other things like night-fighting that provide stealth. Still, stealth on jinking raiders can be a major boon, so I think this is a positive change overall.

Artefacts(Unique Items - 1 per character, only 1 of each allowed in army):

Animus Vitae - 8" ranged S4 AP2 1shot weapon that advances your entire army 1 turn on the power from pain chart if you score an unsaved wound with it. A bit pricy for a one-shot weapon with limited application, it might still be useful if it didn't exclude the character that took it from taking other, more universally useful artefacts.

Armor of Misery gives a 4+ armor save, and a 6++. The primary reason to take it, however, is the -2 Ld bubble it provides against your enemies. All enemies within 6 inches suffer from it, while you gain the fear special rule. This is probably the best artefact in the codex.

Archeangel of pain forces a leadership test at -2 for all units within 9" of the user. For each point they fail by, they suffer a wound with no armor or cover saves allowed. Doesn't work on models with the fearless or And they shall know no fear special rules. Limited utility, in my opinion. Even if you paired it with the armor of misery, and another -2 to leadership from somewhere else(for -6Ld!), you're still only going to kill 4 single-wound models on average, against typical leadership 9 units. This is with a one-shot weapon that will require you to have 2 archons/characters within the same unit to make that combo happen at all, as well as spending the cost of 4 wyches to even try it.

Crucible of malediction - No longer 1 per army, instead of targetting each psyker, it now inflicts an automatic S6 hit on all units that includes at least 1 psyker and are within range. The hit does not allow saves of any kind. Overpriced and not particularly useful because it can only do at most 1 damage to any unit, and follows normal wound allocation. There might be times when it would come in handy, but I suspect those times would be outnumbered by the times that it was worthless.

The helm of spite is an anti-psyker device with a modest 12" range(24" bubble). All friendly dark eldar units inside the bubble get the Adamantium will special rule, while enemy psykers within the bubble suffer a perils of the warp on any double when making a psychic test. I've heard others say this is a great item. It's certainly not BAD. However, it would have been far better if it automatically caused perils, or if it gave us some way to generate additional warp charge in order to utilize our "Adamantium Will". As is, we're left to the mercy of the opponent's warp charge roll. If they roll a 1 or 2, we're basically psychically scewed, and without warp charge points, adamantium will does nothing.

The parasite's kiss is a 12" range master-crafted poison 2+ pistol with AP5. If you cause an unsaved wound with it, you regain a wound lost previously in the battle. Ringing in at the cost of a venom blade, this artefact is worth every point, simply due to it's low cost, and the ability to regain lost wounds.

The djin blade's mechanics have changed, but the chance to be hit by the weapon has stayed the same. Only now, it can only do 1 wound per round, but it's an unsaveable wound. The mechanics are more clean-cut, and will serve to make dice rolling faster, I think. Overall, I like it slightly better than I did before, but mostly due to huskblades not having as much appeal.

HQs:

Archon - Oh, the archon. He still doesn't have access to jetbikes or anything else that would give him more than 6" of movement, but he can now take a dedicated venom by himself. The fact that he's now the cheapest HQ will ensure he still see's action, and he's no slouch, but he's also not the challenge beast he was before, having lost access to both the venom blade, and the AP2 of the old huskblade. I think he'll still be useful as a utility character, providing a 2+ invuln to a unit in the form of his shadow field, allowing you to field a mass of Sslyth, or carrying a webway portal for a shooty unit to ensure they arrive with pinpoint accuracy, then providing either melee support, or an extra blaster shot. Certainly not a superstar these days, though.

Court of the Archon - Very similar to before, except for the following: Lhamaean's lost the mistress of poison rule, Ur-Ghul's gained the fear rule, and you don't have a minimum of anything for any units. You may take the models in any combination you wish up to 12. SSlyth are cheaper by the cost of a Lhemaean, and medusa increased the same amount in price. There is nothing as far as I can tell that demands you place the archon with the court, as there was before. With these changes, I think you'll begin to see the court used more often, with good reason.

Succubus - The succubus is pretty much the same except she has been given access to the only AP2 melee weapon available to independent characters in the form of the archite glaive, which was described in the equipment section of this review. On the attack, the succubus is a force to be reckoned with when utilizing her new weapon. It's unfortunate that she still doesn't have any access to any sort of defensive upgrades, leaving her with only a 4+ invuln to win the day.

Lelith Hesperax - Oh, Lelith, we all love your model, and want to love your rules too. Maybe now we'll get that chance. Lelith has changed quite a bit. Her points cost was reduced by the price of an agonizer, but she lost her shardnet effect from her barbed hair. Her special rule that used to give her extra attacks was altered to allow her to reroll both to hit and to wound in a challenge. Her base attacks were also increased by 1, and she was given rampage. She also has the option to buy the impaler half of the shardnet/impaler wych weapon at triple the cost of the full wych weapon. Overall, I think Lelith might need to be feared quite a bit more than previously. With the ability to generate an average of 2 extra attacks on top of her base 5+1, and the ability to reroll both to hit and to wound in challenges while still ignoring armor, she will probably be our best character for challenges, despite S3. She might even be worth pairing up with a Haemonculus w/animus vitae for that shot at a turn 2 furious charge.

Haemonculus - The only model caqpable of taking the crucible of malediction, this normally won't be a good enough reason to take them on their own. Fortunately, the Haemonculus also boosts his unit +1 turn on the power from pain chart, and has access to other weapons of torture, and of course has access to Artefacts. The crucible isn't considered an artefact, so a Haemonculus may take both. The stats and cost of the Haemonculus are basically a mix of the old Haemonculus and old Ancient. Overall, not a huge change. No longer the cheapest HQ, and can no longer take 3 in one HQ slot.

Urien Rakarth - Cheaper by nearly the cost of a venom, he's still Very similar to how he was before. He still has the casket of flensing, S3 AP3, Assault 2d6, One shot. He also increases units turn on the power from pain chart by +1, but does so in a 12" radius around him. If he is your warlord, he automatically gives all units within 12" of him fear as well. He no longer has any abilities that effect troop slots, or other units at all. His unique "meld the flesh" rule has been replaced with the generic "it will not die" rule from the rulebook. He does have feel no pain(4+) outside of the power from pain special rule, so he hasn't lost ALL of his tankiness with the changes to clone field and "meld the flesh". Overall, I'd say a neutral change to this character.

Drazhar - Reduced in price by half the cost of an old raider, he Still can only be placed in units of incubi. He also improves the weapon skill of any incubi unit he joins by 1. He lost onslaught, murderous assault, riposte, and darting strike in exchange for the rampage special rule.  Still, based on his statline and gear, Drazhar is our best all-around CC character. It's a shame that with initiative 7 he doesn't have access to assault grenades.

Troops:

Kabalite Warriors - Our warriors have been slightly reduced in price, while maintaining the vast majority of their prior effectiveness. Positive change for the codex, adding a slight amount of strength to the army. Trueborn(An elite choice) are now actually an upgrade from warriors.

Wyches - Woe be the wyches. Basically the same as before, except they can't get haywire grenades, they can take 3 wych weapons if they have at least 10 members of their unit, and the wych weapons cost half as much. Unfortunately, the wych weapons have been stripped of all uniqueness, basically being: Reroll wounds, Reroll hits, or reroll both, but only on 1's. So, they're no longer anti-vehicle at all, and they took away their weapon that allowed them to tarpit effectively(shardnet). So now we have an awesome looking unit that doesn't do anything very well. They're still prone to dying horribly to overwatch fire and vehicle explosions. By the writing, it seems almost like someone might have had the idea to give wyches their 4+ in the entire assault phase, thereby protecting them from overwatch, but the editor caught it or something and changed it from assault phase to fight sub-phase. Or maybe I'm just imagining things. Either way, I don't expect to see many of these fine ladies on the table. For a third of their original cost, wyches upgrade to bloodbrides with +1ld and +1A. If you were going to take wyches, the extra attack and leadership might be worth it, but why take them anyhow? Much better options available.

Elites:

Kabalite Trueborn - Upgraded from warriors, trueborn are slightly cheaper than previously, but have a minumum squad size of 5. So no more ICs leading trueborn in venoms. Aside from that, they have pretty much the same options, except that they no longer have access to venom blades, haywire grenades, or shard carbines.

Hekatrix Bloodbrides: See Wyches.

Incubi - Incubi are about 10% cheaper than before, and have +1 Ld, but are otherwise the same. The Klaivex has lost the ability to purchase all upgrades except the demiklaive, and has gained the rampage special rule. Even with the lost of several upgrades, this would be a positive change for incubi, were they not hit so hard by the change to phantasm grenade launchers. The incubi now how no way at all of getting access to grenades without going outside their own codex.

Mandrakes - Wow. Apparently someone wants us to use these. Lowered in cost by 20%, they've been given shrouded on top of already having stealth. Further, while their baleblast has lost it's pinning effect, they get to start the game with it. They also now have the fear special rule. They have, however, lost their 5++, so in CC they won't be making saves unless they have FnP from power from pain. Overall, these guys have been vastly improved, making them almost a must-take in a fairly crowded elite slot.

Wracks - Elite only now, their new weapon is certainly interesting. It's sort of an all-or-nothing shot. Either the target unit takes 2-7 hits, or it takes 0. Their acothyst is the only model in the game with access to a venom blade now. They've gained feel no pain in exchange for their previous "altered phsysique" rule. This is actually a nerf, as their FnP now no longer helps them towards the other PfP abilities, and cannot be transferred. They also now have a minimum squad size of 5. Further, the liquifier guns they're known for carrying have been nerfed to S3. Overall, I think wracks are far worse than they were before primarily due to the squad size requirement, the fact that they are competing for an elite slot, and the nerf to liquifier guns.

Grotesques - They're about the same. They've been negatively effected by the changes to altered physique(in exchange for FnP) and the liquifier gun, but positively effected by the change from berserk rampage to the rampage special rule. Overall, I'd say they're slightly less powerful than before since they cannot be augmented by Urien.

Fast Attack:


Beastmasters - A mixed bag. Beastmasters themselves are cheaper, but about the same, except that their only upgrade options are a power sword or agonizer. Khymera have also had a price drop, now sporting a 6+ armor save, and a 5++ from the daemon special rule. Clawed Fiends are a bit cheaper, but have lowered WS and Wounds. Razorwing flocks have gained the swarms special rule, and lost a couple wounds, making them much less durable. Maximum squad size has been vastly reduced down to 12 models, but you may take them in any combination you like, having no minimums. You don't even have to take a beastmaster. One of the major reasons beastpacks were taken before was because of their large footprint, being able to cover a massive area on the table. That area has been effectively cut in half with the unit cap set at 12. There is still some potential here for creating a deathstar unit, but it has been greatly diminished with every beast in the pack having been nerfed in one way or another, and the loss of the baron for Hit & Run. I think we'll still see people use them effectively if for no other reason than the price and maneuverability, but they've definitely taken a major hit, and will see a fall from grace in the top tournament lists.

Raider - A slight cost reduction with dissies and the option to buy back the old cost to take a dark lance. Now comes stock with deep strike(probably a consolation prize for losing the duke). Several upgrades are now exclusive to the raider. Night shields offering stealth to raiders has improved them a bit, and the cost reduction for dissies is super-welcome in my book. Overall, positive changes for our pain boats. Can be taken as fast attack, or dedicated transports.

Venom - Much the same, they now have deep strike standard. Not much to say here, venoms were good before, and they're good now. The only difference being, the options for what to put in them are starting to lack with haywire wyches not being a thing now. That's somewhat ok, though, since we can now take venoms as fast attack slots or dedicated transports.

Reavers - Their bladevanes were altered heavily to be a special kind of Hammer of Wrath attack that has S4 and rending. Heat lances were reduced in price, along with a 30% reduction in the price of reavers themselves. Having H7R, PfP, combat drugs, and skilled rider with their special bladevane attack, I think the role of reavers is changing. They're a specialist, fast unit that can maneuver to attack rear vehicle armor with melta weapons, but they're also perfectly capable of doing significant damage in CC. With the price reduction, the fact that they're vulnerable to counter-attack in CC isn't as big of a deal, and hit and run allows them to ensure they get to continue to utilize their bladevanes.

Hellions - They've also taken a reduction in price of nearly 20%. Aside from that, they're very similar to how they were before. The stunclaw's special rule has changed to just be a +1S CC weapon with AP6 and instant death. Aside from that, the reduced cost of hellions with their access to 18" splinter fire may actually make them one of our more effecient costed sources of splinter fire. Compared to a dual cannon venom, which get's 12 splinter shots at the same exact cost as 5 hellions, which get 10 shots. The difference here is two-fold. The venom can fire twice the distance as the hellions, but the hellions can assault after they shoot. Overall, positive changes for hellions, but in an extremely competitive fast attack slot, perhaps not competitive enough.

Razorwing jetfighter - Nearly identicle to the previous incarnation, the razorwing jetfighter HAS taken a slight points reduction, and starts armed with 2 dissies. You may pay the price of a wych to upgrade them to dark lances. Everything else pretty much the same. Has access to the new stealth night shields, but no flickerfield. Neutral change.

Scourges - Along the same lines as the mandrakes, someone definitely wants us to buy scourges. They've been lowered in cost by 30%, their special weapons have been lowered in cost, they've been given the ability to take special weapons on 4 out of 5 squad members, are now the only unit in the codex that can take a power weapon that isn't a power sword, are the only unit that has access to shard carbines, and come stock with ghostplate armor. They're the fastest, most versatile, and economical option in the codex. Every single dark eldar player should be running as many of these as they can fit in their army. They are the replacement for our lost haywire wyches. Does it make sense? Yes. Should they kick ass? Yes. It still hurts that our wyches had to be reduced to gibberish to make these guys more appealing. Either way, very positive changes for scourges. If you don't have them and you'll be playing DE, you WILL want to have them in your army.

Heavy Support


Talos - Increased cost by a couple of wyches, but can now be taken in squads of 1-3. Haywire blaster more expensive, while the heat lance option became cheaper. Unless I've missed a rule somewhere, the fact that these are now a squad would allow an IC to join their unit. If that's the case, popping an archon and 3 heat lance toting taloi out of a webway portal behind an enemy transport might be something we see a lot of. I missed the rule in the rulebook at the start of the independant character section. Thanks to Egorey for pointing it out.

Cronos - The cronos has lost much of it's appeal, as it's weapon profiles are still weak, but don't have the upside of providing pain tokens to supporting units. Instead, it's replaced with a 6" range in which any allied DE unit that has feel no pain improves it's FnP by 1, to a maximum of 4+. With a 6 inch range, and a price tag increased to that of the old Talos, it's Not exactly exhilerating.

Ravager increased in cost by the price of the old venom blade, and starts with 3 dissies. May upgrade them individually for the price of the old venom blade each. Lost their rule that allowed them to move at cruising speed and still fire all their weapons, meaning if they move 12", they may only fire 2. Overall, this is a nerf to ravagers. They cost more, and do less.

Voidraven Bomber - Increased in cost by the cost of a blaster, with a new model to boot. May take night shields for stealth, but missile options have been limited to groupings pre-selected for you. Meaning, no purchasing a single missile with that last 15 points you had left. You're either buying 4, or you're not getting any. They did add dark scythes to the codex specifically for the voidraven, providing small blasts of dark lance equivalent power instead of void lances if you choose, but overall I feel like it's less customizeable, and significantly more expensive than before. Razorwing is probably the better choice.


Synopsis:

Overall, a relatively neutral change to the codex, power-wise. Perhaps slightly nerfed. However, much of the soul has been ripped out with the loss of our special characters, and Games Workshop has outdone themselves in taking the 2 worst units in our previous codex, making them the most desireable units in the new codex, and ruining previous units so that we're FORCED to purchase the new stuff to stay competitive. Can DE be a competitive army? Sure, maybe. But the blatant manipulation of the power level of various units directly to effect sales is so obvious that I couldn't imagine I'm the only one who feels violated by this. Games workshop should tread carefully in the future, lest they further alienate the people willing to spend thousands of dollars on their paper and plastic. At this point, if I didn't lament the loss of certain special characters so much, I'd probably be more angry at GW if they DID release those characters in followup releases than if they didn't. Coming out with a codex, immediately followed by 2 supplements, plus digital releases of dataslates, etc, just rubs me the wrong way, as if they had all the information for one really awesome codex, but instead broke it up into 3 major books and 5 dataslates so that they could charge us 200 dollars for a codex.


Last edited by BetrayTheWorld on Tue Oct 07 2014, 04:41; edited 1 time in total
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Lord_Alino
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 04:31

How are shredders? I saw no mention of them and I've been curious on trying them out sometime.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 04:44

Lord_Alino wrote:
How are shredders? I saw no mention of them and I've been curious on trying them out sometime.

They're the same as before, except they have the "shred" rule now.
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egorey
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 05:10


Very good overall review Betray - thank you for taking the time.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 05:48

You're saying that GW has made said units, much better for sales to make us buy more models.  But what about the Cronies being meh and the bomber kinda sucking.  A good move on gws part would have been to make the pain engines be able to mix, and for the bomber to kick ass.


Still I like your honest review. You wrote it without sounding like a b!%ch.

I am glad scourages and grots got much better as i have multiple units of them, but never really used them as all they used to do was disappoint me.

I know mandrakes got better, but I still don't think that I will use them

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 05:59

colinsherlow wrote:
You're saying that GW has made said units, much better for sales to make us buy more models.  But what about the Cronies being meh and the bomber kinda sucking.  A good move on gws part would have been to make the pain engines be able to mix, and for the bomber to kick ass.


Still I like your honest review.  You wrote it without sounding like a b!%ch.

I am glad scourages and grots got much better as i have multiple units of them, but never really used them as all they used to do was disappoint me.  

I know mandrakes got better, but I still don't think that I will use them


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the bomber/wrack/cronies should be good but they have no idea how to design it..
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 06:16

You have no opinion on the instant death gain to Grots? I think they were one of the overall winners of the codex.

I'm curious why you consider Mandrakes an auto include...I consider them competitive for 'worst thing in the dex' (though I think Bloodbrides and the Voidraven edge them out now). Any deeper thoughts?

I think I'm less enamored by Hellions and more enamored of the Razorwing than you are.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 07:05

Thor665 wrote:
You have no opinion on the instant death gain to Grots? I think they were one of the overall winners of the codex.

I'm curious why you consider Mandrakes an auto include...I consider them competitive for 'worst thing in the dex' (though I think Bloodbrides and the Voidraven edge them out now). Any deeper thoughts?

I think I'm less enamored by Hellions and more enamored of the Razorwing than you are.

Honestly, the instant death gain of grots I don't think is that big of a deal. It only happens on 6's, and they are typically applying their wounds to 1 wound models anyhow. Often, Urien was run with grots, and the grots were just stronger as a base, while urien is the one who dealt out instant death to the important multi-wound model in a challenge. However, that being said, I agree that it CAN be a big deal if you specifically target multi-wound models with them. Lack of AP still isn't doing them any favors, though. I'd personally rather have AP2 or AP3, and they could keep their instant death.

Regarding mandrakes, they have infiltrate with both stealth and shrouded, for instant 2+ cover saves while holding down objectives. Further, they get baleblast, which is a S4 AP4 Assault 2 at 18". So their ranged attack is better than bolters, and they get a 2+ cover save, with S4 and a base of 2 attacks in CC with fear for 12 points each. In later rounds, if they survive, they can be attacking at S5 on the charge. If they don't survive, who cares? They were 12 points each. They're either going to be dealt with by the enemy, which will take either ignores cover shots, or lots of other shots contending with their 2+ save, or a unit engaging them in melee to deal with them. All of these are resources that your opponent must use to defeat you. I'd wager that the majority of the time, in order to defeat my 12 point mandrakes, my opponent is going to have to dedicate far more points to doing so than it is worth. And if he doesn't, he will likely come to regret it when they charge a unit at S5. Further, they can be used much like kroot are used by the Tau. Hold them in reserve and have them outflank when they arrive to cap objectives and attack your opponent from unexpected angles. By starting with a decent ranged weapon, they become far more versatile than they were previously. With the loss of their 5++, they aren't great in CC until later rounds when they acquire FnP, but they're still a solid unit overall.

In the end, I said they were "ALMOST" a must-take, but there may be times when grotesques or incubi are better in an elite slot, or perhaps times where you don't take any elite units at all, as our fast attack options are many, and crowded with solid choices. Wink

As for the hellions/razorwing thing, razorwing is great, and far better than hellions, I think. But hellions HAVE become far better than they were previously, in my opinion, while the razorwing hasn't changed so much. It's as good as it ever was. I was just trying to give credit where credit is due when it comes to improving otherwise lackluster units like the hellions.

Either way, thanks for taking time to read my review guys!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 07:33

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Regarding mandrakes, they have infiltrate with both stealth and shrouded, for instant 2+ cover saves while holding down objectives.
Agreed. But they shouldn't do it near any enemy, or they will be assaulted and killed, and if they do it further away then they can't help kill anything so...basically an unhelpful backfield objective squat is what I see here. Pretty 'meh' on that - I can do that with better stuff.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Further, they get baleblast, which is a S4 AP4 Assault 2 at 18". So their ranged attack is better than bolters, and they get a 2+ cover save, with S4 and a base of 2 attacks in CC with fear for 12 points each.
So, basically, they're Dire Avengers without armor but plus stealth and +1 Str but a less good gun.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
In later rounds, if they survive, they can be attacking at S5 on the charge. If they don't survive, who cares? They were 12 points each.
Many units will get these benefits, many that are otherwise superior to the Mandrakes, and some of which are cheaper.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
They're either going to be dealt with by the enemy, which will take either ignores cover shots, or lots of other shots contending with their 2+ save, or a unit engaging them in melee to deal with them.
Well, I will admit, if I was playing against them "ignore them and then stomp them in melee when I want that objective" would be my battle plan. I will agree if your opponent is dumb enough to shoot at a 2+ cover save unit without ignore cover effects then it will be grand, but I will also admit I don't think I'll need much help versus that opponent.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
And if he doesn't, he will likely come to regret it when they charge a unit at S5.
I'll agree that 3 attacks on the charge at Str 5 is nice.
Attached to a T3 model with no armor save (though a 5+ FNP at this stage) Init 5 and no grenades does tend to lower it in terror for me though. Also this isn't even an option till turn 3-4, and also I really think most units will absorb that pretty well, really. I think Wyches would do pretty well against it - heck, I think Wyches could do pretty well assaulting the Mandrakes.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Further, they can be used much like kroot are used by the Tau. Hold them in reserve and have them outflank when they arrive to cap objectives and attack your opponent from unexpected angles. By starting with a decent ranged weapon, they become far more versatile than they were previously. With the loss of their 5++, they aren't great in CC until later rounds when they acquire FnP, but they're still a solid unit overall.
I guess I can see the outflank - but, meh, if I wanted to play that game I could also just DS in vehicles or use WWP. I suppose it is cheaper - but with the appreciable slip of that point saving in actual functionality of the unit.
I mean, yeah, they can 'attack unexpectedly' but...honestly, I'm not sure what would be particularly scared of said attack. Maybe some guard, caught in the open. That's about all I've got. I do think a big issue here is you're really excited by their shooting attack and I consider it pretty lackluster compared to the rest of our shooting. I think that's the big shift in our perception.

I don't think an AP4 18" range 2 shot Str 4 Soulfire weapon is all that good for 12 points.

That doesn't scare MEQ at all, and we already chew up GEQ via splinter and with better range - and, really, splinter is basically just as good versus MEQ.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
In the end, I said they were "ALMOST" a must-take, but there may be times when grotesques or incubi are better in an elite slot, or perhaps times where you don't take any elite units at all, as our fast attack options are many, and crowded with solid choices. Wink
I just wanted to see your thoughts.
I agree they are very *unique* and if what you want is an early game shooter late game assaulter and like the stats of their guns I suppose there isn't anything else that does exactly that, making it sort of a thing.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
hellions HAVE become far better than they were previously
Whaaa?

They lost 1 attack, jink, and grenades and became a bit cheaper while gaining Hit & Run.
Heck, if you like that, maybe just take Beastmasters? Same slot, same stat line, take up to 12 of them for 2 points cheaper and gain move through cover for being a beast, and also have more access to melee assault wargear if you want it.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 08:03

Thor665 wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
hellions HAVE become far better than they were previously
Whaaa?

They lost 1 attack, jink, and grenades and became a bit cheaper while gaining Hit & Run.

Good catch on the hellglaive losing it's bonus attack, I had missed that one. But they didn't have jink before, right? And as for the phantasm grenade launcher, yeah, that hurt our whole army. But that was an upgrade option they had, so has nothing to do with the base price of the models, which is now lower while they gain H&R.

I agree, however, that losing the additional attack, and not having any access to grenades makes me have second thoughts on their "improvement" as a whole. The change to phantasm grenade launchers really does hurt the army a lot, with no real indication as to why that change needed to be made.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 10:28

I like the Mandrake baleblast for two reasons.
1. It's Assault 2, so I can get 20 shots from a full unit at 18", which means I can infiltrate out of normal rapid fire weapon range (24"), then move into range and shoot on turn 1.
2. It's AP4. Our guns tend to jump from AP5 to AP2/3. Yes, Medusae are now one of my favourite units (FINALLY we have a reliable template weapon instead of all this random S and AP rubbish) but the Mandrakes are now likely to be my go-to first choice for shooting stuff like fire warriors, ard boyz and guard veterans.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 12:39

Nice review, a few things to add.

Why take hellions when for 3pts more you get reavers, who are better in every possible way?

You missed out that the gauntlet on grotesques gives them the poison special rule and as they are S5 that means they re-roll to wound against T4 or less that's a huge boost, 2/3 chance of wounding T4 to 8/9 chance (5/6 to 35/36 for T3). It also gives them an extra close combat weapon meaning they have +1A, as a result each grotesque on the charge has 5 attack +d3 (if you are outnumbered due to rampage), suddenly even only causing instant death on a 6 has quite a high chance of occurrence!! Smile

You also missed that talos come with FNP now (before they didn't), and have 3 attacks base +1 for two close combat weapons (rather than d6). Combined with the option for squads and 5pts for re-roll to wounds and you have a decent area denial unit.

Also I agree with thor mandrakes are a mediocre at best.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 13:14

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Grotesques - They're about the same. They've been negatively effected by the changes to altered physique(in exchange for FnP) and the liquifier gun, but positively effected by the change from berserk rampage to the rampage special rule. Overall, I'd say they're slightly less powerful than before since they cannot be augmented by Urien.

:Edit: Looks like I was ninja'd while looking up old rules of Grots ^_^

I missed the part where you see those mangled poor sobs gained.
Berserk Rampage to Rampage. From nega-trait to posi-trait. That's a double win.
Gaining Fleshgauntlets isn't huge for these boys? Not only do they gain 1 attack in CC but also RR to wound on T-4. So they will wreck havoc amongst infantry.
Abberration now can take Agonizer for AP3 whacking fun!
FnP instead of Altered Physique is neutral.
Liquifier Gun got double nerfed. I suspect someone had their Spheez Merrhinez liquified a few too many times. I can understand S3 but 50% upgrade cost too?
And sure Urien can't buff them into vehicle eating monsters. But they now are infantry mangling machines, I like it better Very Happy

And I hear you that GW isn't too subtle about what they want to sell. I'm flabbergasted that they did drop the ball on Mandrakes. It looks like in this codex they wanted to unify all rules to USR. Just make them Deamon, then they would have been a must-have.

Sadly they had to throw out all the little special rules and unique IC's for that. But then again, selling this spices separately might bring in more money on the short term, you are right.

PS: if we want to do anything about GW's strategy we should be being shares until we have vote in the board of GW. IF we would all get organised and stop buying stuff from GW. Saving this money and making the numbers drop for GW. Than after a year, when share prices went down, buy shares en masse, with all the money we saved.
Maybe then we could force the board of GW to listen to us, hobby slaves, who work to be able to pay GW. Or should we become customers? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 14:11

It's the worst that could have happened. The codex was turned into a boring, mediocre pile of meh and stuck somewhere between marines and guardsmen - the costs of marines, the survivability of guardsmen. Most of the unique and interesting mechanics were either mercilessly streamlined or outright removed. The codex just suffers from a serious lack of focus - what exactly does GW want us to be? Lightning fast glass cannons? But then why nerf the units that emphasize words "fast" and "cannon"? Why nerf Ravager, but leave Venom not only the same, but make Venomspam even more potent (13 venoms can be easily doable now) if one was inclined enough to spam it? Do they want us all to just buy tapdancing Failcast Grotesques and Talos Pain Engines in droves for coven armies? That's great for the fans of the fleshsculptors, but what about the rest? What about those that ran Wych cults, which (heh) were made pointless for absolutely no reason?

It's this crazy schizophrenia in these nerfs and buffs that really makes me scratch my head. That is my main disappointment. I can take the army now having to play differently. But I simply cannot see no rhyme or logic behind many changes other than a very cynical "well everyone has this unit in spades already, let's nerf it so that people buy this unit that doesn't fly off the shelves". It boggles the mind how a book that costs 40 euros from a multi-million company reads like what a lazy student has scribbled up before a massive deadline. It feels rushed, and most of all, without any passion whatsoever. I don't see Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin behind this work and going crazy on various design possibilities, I see Robin Cruddace and Jervis Johnson scratching their heads before an impending deadline that looms nearer and nearer.

And because of this, a very unique army that had captured my imagination has become less of what it was. I am still going to paint my Dark Kin, but mostly for dioramas now. Playing out the fantasy of the Dark Kin on the tabletop has become harder, and more importantly, much more boring.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 14:44

El_Jairo wrote:
Abberration now can take Agonizer for AP3 whacking fun!

Nice catch! Missed that one, and agonisers being poison weapons make this all the better. 7-9 3+ re-roll to wound AP3 attacks on the charge against T4, thats monstrous! *cackles maniacally*

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 16:00

It's funny how differently people look at the new codex. Pushing the units that were not bought is the same as pushing the units that were not played. I am sure GW made money before with raiders and ravagers and the like. I don't think GW's storeage cost made them buff mandrakes XD

What I think is a serious and justifiable accusation is the "lack of fantasy". While I also miss the odd options, I think overall it is a good thing that GW streamlines the Codices. Each faction is still very unique (except maybe SM). But you get familiar with the general playstyles very easy (more important, the playstyles of your opponents), while there is still enough stuff hidden in the dephts to make weird combinations.

I can, of course, only speak for myself. While I used not to make spam lists, I hardly played anything more exotic than a portal (once) and shock-prows. My usual list got 35 pts more expensive with the new dex, mostly due to trueborn and ravagers. So I could even play as I used to. But I won't. I planned on going for grots for a long time and i will now. The same for a succubus.
But I will still use wyches for a time and see how they perform.

Am I lucky that the codex fits my plans? I think that we got a lot more options now how to play at least semi-competitive. More than before. And therefore I think the codex is good. And easy to understand. With a great overall plan that can be seen behind it - the evil elves that planned everything out and move in after the enemy made his first step in the wrong direction - if an all-out assault does not seem feasible: Most generic list in the new dex can decide to alpha- or beta strike, with that many robust units and deep strike everywhere.

So I see it positive overall. Most things. And with the streamlined system of 7th, it is als possible for GW to release a lot of stuff later. I think this is what they want to have: releases without having big troubles to include new stuff into the system.

By the way, thanks for the review!
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 20:38

Mushkilla wrote:
El_Jairo wrote:
Abberration now can take Agonizer for AP3 whacking fun!

Nice catch! Missed that one, and agonisers being poison weapons make this all the better. 7-9 3+ re-roll to wound AP3 attacks on the charge against T4, thats monstrous! *cackles maniacally*

It would be 4+ re-rollable, actually, right? But either way, that's still pretty awesome at AP3.

P.S. Will be going through my review and editing it to reflect comments and suggestions here. Will credit those who got me to change it.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 21:06

If your strength can wound the toughness value on a better value than the poison - you use your strength, and you still get the re-roll. Thus, Str 5 vs. T 4 = 3+ re-roll.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 21:46

BetrayTheWorld, your review almost exactly mirrors my thoughts after having poured over the new codex for hours. And since I'm brilliant, you must be brilliant too. Mandrakes, however in my opinion, aren't really worth using.

Thor665 wrote:

I'm curious why you consider Mandrakes an auto include...I consider them competitive for 'worst thing in the dex' (though I think Bloodbrides and the Voidraven edge them out now). Any deeper thoughts?

Can we please give that title to the Voidraven? It's the most disappointing unit in the codex. And if anyone has been following my posts they might suspect a personal vitriol and disdain for the unit. Because there is. I had a sexy conversion of a voidraven, and it was the only "non-competative" unit I included in my "competitive" list. I would have happily bought the new raven though, it's sexy. So let's give the title to it. It costs more $$ and it costs more points than bloodbrides. At least Bloodbrides unlock a useful unit (Venom).

Edit: In fact a unit of bloodbrides on a venom costs less than a Voidraven, and if you give the syren haywire grenades it will cause more wounds and hullpoints. So solved.

Disclaimer: Bloodbrides are still bad and should be avoided.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 22:23

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It would be 4+ re-rollable, actually, right? But either way, that's still pretty awesome at AP3.

Re-read the poison special rule my friend. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 22:38

Mushkilla wrote:
BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It would be 4+ re-rollable, actually, right? But either way, that's still pretty awesome at AP3.

Re-read the poison special rule my friend. Smile

Which is a buff on the Succubus only if she rolls a +1S on drugs vs MEQ! At least it's better than before where it has no effect.

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 22:56

HERO wrote:
Which is a buff on the Succubus only if she rolls a +1S on drugs vs MEQ!  At least it's better than before where it has no effect.

But we weren't talking about Succubus, we were talking about a S5 aberration who now has access to an agoniser (and has 7-9 attacks on the charge). Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 00:20

Mushkilla wrote:
HERO wrote:
Which is a buff on the Succubus only if she rolls a +1S on drugs vs MEQ!  At least it's better than before where it has no effect.

But we weren't talking about Succubus, we were talking about a S5 aberration who now has access to an agoniser (and has 7-9 attacks on the charge). Wink
To be frankly, I was thinking of putting a Succubus together with the Aberration, for leadership bonus of course and maybe to also cover AP2 whacking. So 'only' brings 6 attacks S4 AP2 on the charge, barring positive drug roll and/or furious charge and rage at the end. Which would inflict 2 wounds on average vs T4.

:Edit: a little rules question: does majority toughness pass on to challenges?
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 02:49

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Fortunately, the Haemonculus also boosts his unit +1 turn on the power from pain chart, and has access to other weapons of torture, and of course has access to Artefacts.

Correct me if I've missed it somewhere, but the entry for the Haemonculus seemingly only specifies the Weapons of Torture and the Tools of Torment and doesn't say anything about the Artefacts of Cruelty.
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 03:24


Well, i for one like Mandrakes - my reasoning is simple - they are an excellent unit to sit on an early objective and they must be assaulted to be removed so if you have units nearby that can help - you have baited something into your charge range. I like any unit that has base options for deployment that make your opponent choose. When an opponent has to choose he can make mistakes.

As for grots I think they are quite strong BUT incubi are AP2 and the klaive is bloody good and with a wwp succubus they are a force. So My elite slots are getting pretty tricky with truborn, grots, incubi and mandrakes all useable now.

I had the identical problem with fast attack - too many excellent choices so I build a realspace raider list which means I'm dealing with ZERO ObSec. I can take Eldar allies and maybe get one or two but that is it.

My initial impressions on the new codex is that it is nothing like the way the fluff portrays DE - this is unfortunate. Also it seems that detachments and formations is where the real strength of the codex lies. I would loved to be proved wrong here. I won my first match because I spammed flyers and skimmers and took Eldar allies. I'm not sure I am happy with that.

Now, i am not complaining - I feel I am looking at the codex objectively. I think it is workable and some units certainly got buffs. I just don't know if I'm personally comfortable with it's new style of play. That said I always added Eldar allies and that seems still the path to consistent success - well they can stand alone but are just better with reserve manipulation (so autarch or take an aegis I guess or bastion). I would play DE main for sure. I am now just sprinkling a bit of Eldar in.

So the review is good - I think we should add the formations in the main codex for discussion and also look at the supplement eventually.

_________________
Dear GW,
Paper is overpowered. Scissors is fine.
Signed,
Rock.
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