Watch out! New Blood Angels bringing fast templates galore!

So, along with Furioso dreadnoughts packing Frag Cannons (S6, rending, assault 2 - I assume still templates) coming down in drop pods.

5-man assault marine squads running (2) flamers + combi / hand flamers, potentially moving 24" per turn w/ jump + wings....

what's to become of our delicate gunboats? Each of those units above has the capability to remove a squad from inside it's transport with a complete alpha-strike ability to out-range our squads...

Obviously the book isn't out yet, but does the community feel this may spell the ultimate end of gun-boat raiders & push us back to MSU venom spam?

No way does it spell the end of gunboats for us. Just means a change in tactics. It's not that scary if you know what's coming and when. If his army list has 3-4 Drop pods you know 2 of those will come down T1 and if they are packed with Flamer units than why are you deploying your gunboat Raiders. Reserve them, fly on T2 and Rapid Fire or Blaster the hell out of what he has deployed.

Yeah, it just means a return to more Reserve heavy lists. Since I play that way anyway, I'm not anticipating too hard of a learning curve.

clever handle wrote:

Obviously the book isn't out yet, but does the community feel this may spell the ultimate end of gun-boat raiders & push us back to MSU venom spam?

Definitely not, because not everybody plays Blood Angels. Or Sisters of Battle, for the same matter.

Those squads would prbably have 2 meltas and blow our boats right away.

Definately the Blood Angels arent easy opponent for us. Baal Predators and Storm Ravens arent exactly welcoming sight either, as are FnP marines.

I love fighting droppod armies! Sure, they get to land anywhere on the board, but after that they aren't moving anywhere quickly.

As for 5 man assault squads, we will almost always have enough speed to stay away from them and/or firepower to wipe them off the board. Flamers only suck if they get close enough to you, and we're still the fastest army out there.

It's ok the Blood angels are just a different codex for C:SM to get fast attack drop pods. So instead of running a rune priest to get your Drop pod for centurions you can run a blood angels librarian -_-

Note that the revised wings of sanguinius (sp?) allows infantry units (including jump) to move an additional 12" - no assaulting after. This means that a 5-man assault squad w/ 3 flame templates can jump 12", wings 12" further, then place the 8-1/8" template for a total range of 32.125". This outranges gunboats by a few inches.

Couple this with furiouso dreadnoughts coming down in pods T1 that can nuke our venoms to eliminate AI shooting at 36" and be all but immune to our Melee anti-AV units

I appreciate that this is "just another" marine army, and not all players play marines, but as a minimum, as Its_Rumble pointed out, the combination of fast drop pods & furioso's & BA librarians coupled with the good ol' ultramarines... I can see us having a new army to fear beyond our craft-world peers & the Tau.

If I am not mistaken tactical squad can take heavy flamers as well.

clever handle wrote:

So, along with Furioso dreadnoughts packing Frag Cannons (S6, rending, assault 2 - I assume still templates) coming down in drop pods.

Is that really any worse than some drop-podding meltagunners blowing up the raider and a good chunk of the passengers?

clever handle wrote:

5-man assault marine squads running (2) flamers + combi / hand flamers, potentially moving 24" per turn w/ jump + wings....

Thing is, I don't expect to see many squads like this. I suspect most will be running meltas - because anti-vehicle is very important these days.

If they do run them, I'm thinking:
- Whittle them at range (5-man squads aren't exactly durable - and if you take out one or two of the flamers, then that's most of the threat gone)
- Kill the psykers (may not be easy, but if you remove them then that's a big chunk of mobility gone).
- Bait them out (Depending on the situation, it may be useful to sacrifice a unit to the squad, in order to draw them out of hiding. If you have FNP 5+ by that point, there's a decent chance that a good portion of your squad will live anyway.)
- Shrug and accept it (we're a fragile army - we're going to take casualties.)

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- Kill the psykers (may not be easy, but if you remove them then that's a big chunk of mobility gone).

Wings of Sangunius is just one result on a D6. I dont expect BA players will rely on them. I also dont expect to see lonely Librarians - chaplains do rerolling job much better these days. Or who do we have here - Priests. And big chunk of moblity comes from 3 sources - jump packs, fast rhinos/RBs, stormravens.  

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- Whittle them at range (5-man squads aren't exactly durable - and if you take out one or two of the flamers, then that's most of the threat gone)

They dont need to be - they deepstrike and do their job then hope for the best. Especially with our army, any unit they have taken out is less units that can damage them.

If id play BA against DE i wouldnt play shooting games or picking weak units, i'd go full forward with everything in order to crush DE. This play style is very suited to their units and they have all the tools to make us suffer.

Thing is - BA army is a very agressive army. They dont hide in cover - they force battle. We need something to meet this headlong push. Maybe more reserves with them is better choice. I dont really expect to see dreadnaughts, they were meh and still are meh.

Azdrubael wrote:

Wings of Sangunius is just one result on a D6. I dont expect BA players will rely on them. I also dont expect to see lonely Librarians - chaplains do rerolling job much better these days. Or who do we have here - Priests. And big chunk of moblity comes from 3 sources - jump packs, fast rhinos/RBs, stormravens.  

Wings are a big part of the squad's mobility though - otherwise they're only moving 12", which is far more manageable.

Azdrubael wrote:

They dont need to be - they deepstrike and do their job then hope for the best. Especially with our army, any unit they have taken out is less units that can damage them.

Seems like a risky deep strike to me. And, a bit of a pointless use of assault marines. Seems like you might as well just use tactical marines and take a pod.

Azdrubael wrote:

If id play BA against DE i wouldnt play shooting games or picking weak units, i'd go full forward with everything in order to crush DE. This play style is very suited to their units and they have all the tools to make us suffer.

Fair enough, but that didn't appear to be the tactic being discussed.

Azdrubael wrote:

Thing is - BA army is a very agressive army. They dont hide in cover - they force battle. We need something to meet this headlong push. Maybe more reserves with them is better choice. I dont really expect to see dreadnaughts, they were meh and still are meh.

Do you think there's any point meeting them with our own assault units - Reavers, Beasts, Grotesques etc.? Or, are we better off just trying to outmanoeuvre and shoot them?

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Wings are a big part of the squad's mobility though - otherwise they're only moving 12", which is far more manageable.

Look at it this way - they have to roll psychic power with a single d6, then they have actually cast the power, then not being denied. Its all starting to look veeeery situational.

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Seems like a risky deep strike to me.

My best warhammer buddy plays BA - he does this heck all the time. Remember they have ways of reducing scatter. Dante is sweet character now, for what he brings.

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Do you think there's any point meeting them with our own assault units - Reavers, Beasts, Grotesques etc.? Or, are we better off just trying to outmanoeuvre and shoot them?

I'd do Grots when i will have some time to actually paint them. Incubi seems a rational choice here also. I think outmaneuvering might not be enough.

Azdrubael wrote:

Look at it this way - they have to roll psychic power with a single d6, then they have actually cast the power, then not being denied. Its all starting to look veeeery situational.

Well, denial isn't exactly likely. Not with the current mess of a psychic phase.

I agree that, for a BA player, it's not reliable.

However, from our point of view "hope our opponent doesn't roll that power" isn't exactly a good tactic.

Azdrubael wrote:

My best warhammer buddy plays BA - he does this heck all the time. Remember they have ways of reducing scatter. Dante is sweet character now, for what he brings.

True.

Azdrubael wrote:

I'd do Grots when i will have some time to actually paint them. Incubi seems a rational choice here also. I think outmaneuvering might not be enough.

Fair enough.

The Shredder wrote:

Seems like a risky deep strike to me. And, a bit of a pointless use of assault marines. Seems like you might as well just use tactical marines and take a pod

The thing is that assault squads have better access to guns than tacticals (2 in a 5-man squad rather than 1). And they get a free drop pod. A 5-man assault squad with 2 meltas and a drop pod is only 105 points!

Count Adhemar wrote:

The thing is that assault squads have better access to guns than tacticals (2 in a 5-man squad rather than 1).

Good point, for some reason I thought tacticals could get 2-per-5 as well.

Count Adhemar wrote:

And they get a free drop pod. A 5-man assault squad with 2 meltas and a drop pod is only 105 points!

Ah, didn't know about the free drop pod either.

Ok, that's a really cheap squad.

Plus, they all can take 2 pistols on their sergeants. It means another 2 flamers or melta.

Just keep something between your gunboats and the enemy. If the enemy cannot put flamers upon your gunbotas for a literally space problem, you are happy.

Talos, Cronos, Beastmasters, Ravager, empty transports are all good choice for the work

You know what seems really fun to bring against flame-heavy Blood Angels?

Eldar allies, with an Avatar.