PGL and Counter Charge

I do not know if this has been addressed or asked before. I did not see it anywhere. But, In assault, The Baron and Hellions Assault a unit of Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters Pass LD and Counter Attack. Now Counter Attack states that they get an Extra Attack as if charging. Would the Barons, or any characters, PGL Nullify the Counter attack bonus?

Counter Attack works "exactly" like they assaulted that turn.
Yes, the PGL's defensive grenades would negate the bonus.

CA works exaclty like they assaulted that turn...except you cannot benefit from Furious Charge if you are counter attacking

Yup yup, they ha' the right o' it. No bonus for Counter-Attack because your face is covered in grenades! Makes Space Whelps angry. SO ANGRY.

Raucir.

I thought that Counter Attack gave them +1 Attacks as if they had charged.

It does - but defensive grenades deny the +1 Attack bonus from charging.

The GW FAQ says this though:

Q: Does a unit that successfully passes its counter-attack
Leadership test count as charging for all purposes?
(p74)
A: No. They just gain the +1 assault bonus to their
Attacks.

(Edit) Me being an idiot, PGL takes away the 'assault bonus' not the 'bonus for charging'. I think that's right, haven't got my BRB to check.

(Edit x2) I was just at a friends house where I checked. From what I remember, defensive grenades take the +1 bonus attack away from an assaulting unit. Combined with the FAQ I would say no they don't take away counter attack. '

That GW FAQ is specifically there to disallow other triggers - like furious charge.

They gain the +1 bonus to attacks via assault *exactly* as if they had charged - they get no other charge related benefits. It's a claarification, not a rewording of the rule.

But defensive grenades take away the bonus attack from 'assaulting' units. As the FAQ states, counter attacking units aren't counted as assaulting, therefore, do not lose the attack.

If they wanted to clarify it, why not say, yes you can lose it with defensive grenades but no you don't gain any other bonus.

I guess our major boggle here then is - what do you think they mean by 'all purposes' and where do you think in the FAQ they're saying it's not +1 attack for "exactly" being like they assaulted?

I submit and stand by - that what they are saying in the FAQ is you do get +1 attack for assaulting "exactly" like you assaulted - but get no other benefits of assaulting (like furious charge) since there is nothing in that FAQ changing the inherent reason of why you're getting the assault attack bonus.

I was arguing for it against a friend last night but was denied due to the wording of the grenade rules. If they said something like... 'Defensive grenades remove the +1 assault bonus' then I wouldn't have a problem, but, it specifies that it takes the bonus away from an assaulting unit and the FAQ states that they do not count as charging.

I'm not trying to be oblique and you are all a lot more experienced players than I am so I'm not going to say I am right and you are wrong, I'm just confused as to how it works, when in my head, al the words say it shouldn't :s

The point which I'm thinking is leading you wrong is you're getting tied up on a single aspect of the wording and not looking at all of it - let's trim stuff down so it's more clear.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

The GW FAQ says this though:

Q: Does a unit count as charging for all purposes?
(p74)
A: No.

They are NOT saying they don't count as charging.
They are saying they don't count as charging FOR ALL PURPOSES.
Okay - so what purpose do they still count as charging for?
Getting +1 attack.
Defensive grenades prevent +1 attack from charging.

I accept they could have been more clear, but it's not unreasonably written.

Where we disagree is you're reading it like this;

Archon Mephitic wrote:

The GW FAQ says this though:

Q: Does a unit count as charging?
(p74)
A: No.

Which is not what they're saying. Otherwise they would have just said that - not "for all purposes".

So the fact that they specify 'for all purposes' and 'just the +1 attack' means that the only purpose the are considered charging for is the attack yes?

I am not sure why but the scenario that keeps popping in my head is you may be using the PGL to assault some wolves in cover thus using offensive grenades then they counter charge and now you are using defensive grenades - here is a section from the relavent Space Wolf FAQ:

Q. Picture this: My Grey Hunters unit including Ragnar
Blackmane is assaulted and makes a successful Leadership
test to Counter-attack. Do they then benefit from his Furious
Charge special rule (+1 S and +1 I)? Also, can the original
assaulter then deploy defensive grenades to rob the Space
Wolves of their Counter-attack bonus? (p55)

A. The Counter-attack special rule only confers the +1
assault bonus and no other advantages normally
associated with assaulting. Therefore Ragnarʼs unit does
not benefit from Furious Charge. Also, we think it is a bit
rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for attacking
and defending, so no, defensive grenades cannot be used
to negate the bonus attack from counter-attacking.

Bold mine - really? Someone thought it "rich"? Who? Damn Marine loves...

So ask a Deldar player and they say yes, ask a Wolf player and they say no. How can the rules allow both?

You call me a Wolf Player one more time and I will pop you in the nose.

The Wolf FAQ pretty much puts this matter to rest - I'd be curious to hear a DE player say "yes" now, that would be someone very much in denial or should I say that would be "rich".

I would agree with Kwi - the Wolf FAQ specifically disallows PGL working. (sorry, no richness here)

yep, the wolf faq makes it pretty clear. good find Kwi.

Meh - wish it wasn't true, it's not like the Tau are going to stand a chance in CC even if it did and the PGL in our codex isn't as prolific that it would shut a wolf player down. Gah!

But plague marines, plague marines might hurt some Sphess Wolves - we can't have that, it'd be rich..RICH!

Grumpy Kwi wrote:

You call me a Wolf Player one more time and I will pop you in the nose.

I wasn't calling you the pup. I've lready been hit once today anyway, my brother's girlfriend was angry with me. The hardest thing was trying not to laugh afterwards when she hurt herself more than me.

Anyway, that's that. I was getting confused because it doesn't work.

I think GW need to stop with the power armour nepotism