Counter offensive vs Tormentors

Hellion Posts : 34 Join date : 2020-08-14

How does the tormentors special rule interract with Counter Offensive strategem? Which takes precedence?

Hellion Posts : 74 Join date : 2016-08-18

You can not use Counter Offensive if tormentor is in efect.

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Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.

Klaivex Posts : 2150 Join date : 2016-02-18

That depends on the situation.

If you use a Fight Last ability into a Fight First unit (like our Cult of Strife), then the target unit is actually "fighting normally". Any "Fight Normal" unit can use the interrupt strat.

Had this used against me vs a Demon Keeper of Secrets. Ancient Evil'ed the monster so Draz could double fight it, then he spent the 2CP to interrupt.

Very difficult mechanic to keep straight.

Hellion Posts : 74 Join date : 2016-08-18

It is simple, look on the wording. Tormentor makes unit not egligible to fight. To use counter offensive unit must be egligible to fight.

_________________
Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Fri Dec 17 2021, 14:00

Fremen is correct.
Counter Offensive can only be used on an eligible[/i] unit. A unit that fights last is not eligible to fight until all other units have fought.

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Kabal of the Eternal Night	Modelling Blog
The Squidmaster Distractathon	Notes on being an RPG Gamesmaster

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Fri Dec 17 2021, 14:39

actually, I think fisheyes is correct.

from wahapedia :
"If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it."

So, if you target a unit that has a "fight first" rule with tormentor and win the roll, it ignores both rules. Since it ignores the tormentor rules, it can use counter offensive.

Units without a "fight first" rule targetted by tormentors are affected normally and can't use counter offensive.

Hellion Posts : 74 Join date : 2016-08-18

No, because fight first does not mean it is egligible to fight. Wahapedia is not the best source. The old wording of fight last was balanced by fight first. The news one is not.

_________________
Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Fri Dec 17 2021, 15:35

Fremen wrote:: No, because fight first does not mean it is egligible to fight. Wahapedia is not the best source. The old wording of fight last was balanced by fight first. The news one is not.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but the fight first/fight last interaction is very much official ruling

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OQ1TeUZ6hxw5jp1e.pdf

"If a unit would be both a ‘fights first’ and a ‘fights last’ unit at the same time, it is instead a ‘fights normally’ unit."

Unless you think that tormentors aren't a "fight last" rule, I don't see how a "fight first" unit affected by tormentors wouldn't become a "fight normally" unit, and be henceforth eligible for counter-offensive.

I might have missed something tho, feel free to explain if that's the case.

Hellion Posts : 74 Join date : 2016-08-18

Fight last =/= Not egligible to fight. There was a time that there were both rules in the game. Now we have only not egligible to fight.

_________________
Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting.

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Fri Dec 17 2021, 15:58

Fremen wrote:: Fight last =/= Not egligible to fight. There was a time that there were both rules in the game. Now we have only not egligible to fight.

This has all been changed in Rare rule section, FAQ, and Errata. Not eligible to fight is now a Fight last mechanic as described on Page 88 of the GT tournament pack 2021 as one such location. and expanded upon by the July 16, 2021 FAQ of said book.

this was all started back in the June of this year. Please go to the Warhammer community page and the FAQ section. scroll down to June and find the CORE Rulebook Errata and Designers Commentary PDF going over this Exact topic.

The short of it is not eligible to fight is a fight last ability and charging is a fight first ability. They cancel out and the unit is eligible to fight normally (after all chargers and defenders first activation). However because it is now eligible to fight normally it is a valid target for the Counter Offensive Strat.

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Fri Dec 17 2021, 16:03

Fremen wrote:: Fight last =/= Not egligible to fight. There was a time that there were both rules in the game. Now we have only not egligible to fight.

I think those are the same, and even then, look at the wording in the official core rulebook faq :

"Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select
a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under
the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until
after all other eligible units have done so, then unless that unit is
also under the effects of a rule that lets it fight first, you will not
be able to select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem."

source : https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/lKo58OjfYV7Ysecp.pdf

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Fri Dec 17 2021, 16:16

Sorry here is the link to the designer's Commentary on Fights first / Fights Last.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/RuosDYybaqPbpxTi.pdf

Subject: Re: Counter offensive vs Tormentors Sat Dec 18 2021, 13:59

If Tormentors are used against a regular unit, that unit fights last.
If Tormentors are used against a Fights First unit, it instead becomes a "fights normally" unit.

A normal unit made Fights Last can not be targeted with Counter Offensive, because it is not eligible.
A Fights First Unit made normal by Tormentors CAN be targeted by Counter Offensive.

_________________

Kabal of the Eternal Night	Modelling Blog
The Squidmaster Distractathon	Notes on being an RPG Gamesmaster

Hellion Posts : 34 Join date : 2020-08-14

Many thanks for the replies, I think I have a proper grasp of the interaction between the two rules.

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» Vexator Mask vs. Counter-Offensive
» What are Tormentors?
» how to counter that?
» PGL and Counter Charge