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 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders

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Nogrim
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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 14:51
Something that I'm surprised to not have seen discussed is Red Grief transports.  With the Advanced Aethersails stratagem they can move and advance 22' before charging.

Pretty dope.

Gets even better if you use it on Incubi or Grots.
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 15:17
Ideally, you'd only want the Raider to charge if the passengers are able to. They'd have to disembark before movement however, so there is no way for the Incubi or Grots - no Red Grief, so no Advance + Charge - to keep up and hit the enemy lines alongside their Raider.
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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 15:28
DingK wrote:
Ideally, you'd only want the Raider to charge if the passengers are able to. They'd have to disembark before movement however, so there is no way for the Incubi or Grots - no Red Grief, so no Advance + Charge - to keep up and hit the enemy lines alongside their Raider.

What? No. You put them in the raider.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 15:54
FrankyMcShanky wrote:
DingK wrote:
Ideally, you'd only want the Raider to charge if the passengers are able to. They'd have to disembark before movement however, so there is no way for the Incubi or Grots - no Red Grief, so no Advance + Charge - to keep up and hit the enemy lines alongside their Raider.

What?  No.  You put them in the raider.

And hope nobody surrounds it when you charge, preventing the occupants from getting out?

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 15:59
Yeah it's a big risk. We all know raiders aren't that tough, it's doesn't take too big of an assault unit to strip the last few wounds off one, and if your opponent surrounds the raider and then destroys it, there goes your passengers.

It's not a bad option to have that you can have such a huge threat range, but I don't foresee myself using it that often. The whole turn one charge thing is much better on reavers.

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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 16:32
Lord Asvaldir wrote:

It's not a bad option to have that you can have such a huge threat range, but I don't foresee myself using it that often. The whole turn one charge thing is much better on reavers.

I it's something I imagine only really being used in conjunction with reavers.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 16:45
That could work but again it's a risk. You have to be really smart with how you use it to tie up units and use your reavers to protect the raiders.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 18:02
Don't forget that disembarking says "within" and not "wholly within" 3" though. It's hard to block a person out from just putting the tip of the base 3" away from the transport while still being within an inch of the model unless they have enough to do multiple ranks around the whole thing.
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 18:26
lessthanjeff wrote:
Don't forget that disembarking says "within" and not "wholly within" 3" though.  It's hard to block a person out from just putting the tip of the base 3" away from the transport while still being within an inch of the model unless they have enough to do multiple ranks around the whole thing.

Not to mention that raiders have a pretty large footprint. I don't think that it will be easy at all for your opponent to surround one, unless you're particularly careless with your positioning or try to charge something like a horde of orks or gaunts.

Ideally, you want to get a first turn raider charge on something like a tank or other small heavy support unit, so as to keep them from being able to fire in the next turn, and set yourself up to disembark a cc unit and charge something in the second turn.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 19:25
There's enough infantry spam in this edition that I'm pretty sure most factions are capable of surrounding transports that wind up near their deployment zone. It's a definite risk.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 19:47
Raiders are very long, though. Park it exactly 0.99" from the 2-3 models it can potentially kill, and unless the opponent has some extra tricks, their pile-in move will not allow them to surround your transport.

Venoms? Yeah, they are dead meat.
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 20:20
A raider is going to kill 2-3 models? Not sure of the chances of that, but it's really low with 3 attacks. And if you're going right up in the enemy's deployment zone, as Burnage mentioned it's really not that hard to surround a transport against an army with a lot of infantry. 1-2 squads or a squad and a vehicle can probably manage or at least force you to lose a few models. Just don't really see it as worth the risk.

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Nogrim
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 20:50
FrankyMcShanky wrote:
Something that I'm surprised to not have seen discussed is Red Grief transports.  With the Advanced Aethersails stratagem they can move and advance 22' before charging.

Pretty dope.

Gets even better if you use it on Incubi or Grots.

what i would suggest is actually comboing it with the chain flail stratagem (name?)
get moderately close then use this ability to Fly OVER the enemy ending the advance with in charge range of your passengers, or at just the edge of you enemies (facing broad side to them to maximize the difficulty in surrounding you.)

that way even if they blow you up shooting, or during their charge your melee units pop out the back and are right where they want to be. likely even able to shoot during their next turn.
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withershadow
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 21:33
Lord Asvaldir wrote:
A raider is going to kill 2-3 models? Not sure of the chances of that, but it's really low with 3 attacks. And if you're going right up in the enemy's deployment zone, as Burnage mentioned it's really not that hard to surround a transport against an army with a lot of infantry. 1-2 squads or a squad and a vehicle can probably manage or at least force you to lose a few models. Just don't really see it as worth the risk.

The tip of your prow just under an inch away from a couple of models should keep you being safe. If you are throwing a raider right into the middle of several conscript blobs, then sure, but why would you do that?
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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2018, 22:56
Highly depends on the list you're facing, a smart opponent with fast units isn't going to have too much of a problem surrounding you if you shove your raider right in his deployment zone turn one. I just really don't think it's the best use of the red grief trait, reavers/hellions benefit more.

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Shride
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2018, 16:58
It's not the worst way to soak up Overwatch for those Reavers and Hellions.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2018, 03:25
If the vehicle becomes surrounded, the standard infantry bases are just under an inch wide, and you’d have to deploy them 1” away right? So you should have that 1” to place them right? The models just appear on the board, it’s not like they need to move through them

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Lord Asvaldir
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2018, 04:01
The footprint of a 10 man unit is definetly bigger than a raider, no way you can fit them in the space vacated by a blown up raider. Maybe a few will fit, but not many.

I'll stick to using reavers for those 30" charges.

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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2018, 04:40
The raider has fly...so you just bust out of combat by flying over everyone. Raiders move 14". Just don't go super deep into blob territory where it might be possible for that to happen.

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macron
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PostSubject: Re: 23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders   23'-34' threat range Red Grief Raiders I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2018, 13:08
I wouldnt condone modelling for advantage but iirc the raider has the "measure from any part of this model" so if you happen to have some chains and other spiky bits that can extend your footprint for unloading your troops by a fair margin.

Could be wrong on that though but if it is a real worry its an option.
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