NEED CRITICISM (new DE player)

so first off let me say that the dark eldar are way cooler than the eldar with their fluff combined with their model range, unfortunately to include the models i want i need to take the eldar as my primary detachment.

Let us begin...

Eldar:

HQ:
Farseer on Jetbike (giant middle finger to my opponent, who buffs everybody in my army)
- Mantle of Laughing god
- Runes of Witnessing
- Spirit Stone

Warlocks (make jetbikes and blasterborn more survivable to get to their targets)
- 2x warlocks on jetbikes

Troops:
Jetbike squadron
6 bikers
2 cannons

Jetbike squadron
6 bikers
2 cannons

Heavy support:
Wraithknight (this will be a awesome conversion piece, my idea is to make a dark eldar evil wraith knight)
- Suncannon and scatter shield
- Scatter laser (gives the sun cannon twinlinked)


Dark Eldar:

HQ:
Archon (just somebody cheap to accompany trueborn)
- ghostplate armor
- blaster

Elites:

Trueborn
- 4x blasters
- Venom
- additional splinter cannon
- Flickerfields

Trueborn
- 4x blasters
- Dracon
- close combat weapon and pistol
- Venom
- additional splinter cannon
- Flickerfields
- grisly trophies (this allows warlocks to re roll psychic tests)

Troops:

Warriors
- 4x warriors
- Sybarite
- close combat weapon and pistol
- Venom
- additional splinter cannon
- Flickerfields
- grisly trophies (this allows warlocks to re roll psychic tests)

Warriors
- 4x warriors
- Sybarite
- close combat weapon and pistol
- Venom
- additional splinter cannon
- Flickerfields
- grisly trophies (this allows warlocks to re roll psychic tests)

Warriors
- 4x warriors
- Sybarite
- close combat weapon and pistol
- Venom
- additional splinter cannon
- Flickerfields

Heavy Support:

Razorwing Jetfighter (stock)

Razorwing Jetfighter (stock)


Total Points: 1997



Why i like this setup:

The eldar are simply there to provide psychic support, unlock jetbikes, and get the wraithknight (i know hes not that competitive but i want to do the conversion and have a cool center piece to my army) plus if i get enhance that wraithknight will be hard to take down.

The Dark Eldar are there to win me the game! I prefer the fliers over the ravagers, harder to hit and pretty much has the exact same role. The venoms with warriors are what i use to harrass the enemy troops and to capture objectives. The blasterborn in their venoms are the strike force to get in and blow up key enemy armor, or take out heavy troops. The archon rides around with one of the squads for no particular reason besides the fact that i had to take an HQ.


ANY ADVICE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!

5 Warriors is not an assault unit - for the price of the Sybs and Dracon you could be giving them better guns.

I mean, at least sack the Dracons - they aren't even giving better leadership to the Trueborn.

Also, a leadership test =/= psychic test. I'm pretty sure the grisly trophies are going to be no help to you.

The biggest hole I see in your list is basically a total lack of long range anti-mech. Your only long range anti-mech is, functionally, the lances on the fliers that won't show up till Turn 2. That seems really likely to give you issues versus a variety of builds. I'll admit I look to the Wraithknight as the easy and obvious first drop, which judging by your modeling hopes you don't want to hear, but that's what I'm seeing - he's a little redundant considering how much other anti-infantry shooting you're fielding.

Agreed, drop the DE sargs. They give no value for those points. I presume you're not gonna go all assault and close combat with your DEs, that's why you gave the archon a blaster to ride around blasterborns. That's nice and fun!

The easiest way to get long range anti-mech, is to swap your fliers with ravagers. Otherwise, get some raiders as transports. Or the more expensive way, equip trueborns with DLs...

Unfortunately, your list is illegal. If you bring Eldar as your primary detachment to have access to warlocks, you cannot bring more than 1 Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy choice from the DE army.

autopilot wrote:

Unfortunately, your list is illegal. If you bring Eldar as your primary detachment to have access to warlocks, you cannot bring more than 1 Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy choice from the DE army.

Good catch! Switch em around and it should be legal!

Damn didn't think about the limitations of the allied detachment when it comes to elites, fast attack and heavy support....

Well back to the drawing board, essentially I definitely agree with dropping the sergeants they are just fun to put together and paint but serve very little purpose. So if I was to take the Dark eldar as a primary I can't bring warlocks....that's just straight silly, now my jetbikes are not nearly as survivable. Probably going to have to drop the bikes as well.

The Grisly trophies with psychic powers is a debate going on so I'm going to pretend that it does work

You should be able to make DE primary and still bring warlocks. It's a debate but I think a lot of places allow it (especially just friendly games)

Thor665 wrote:

Also, a leadership test =/= psychic test. I'm pretty sure the grisly trophies are going to be no help to you.

A psychic test is a leadership test, page 67 of the BRB.
Therefore grisly trophies do work for psykers

No kidding it seems pretty ridiculous that if you want eldar as allies that warlocks are completely forbidden as the book is written. I know my local gamin club wouldn't care if I did and neither would the players. The problem is that I would really like to take this army to tournaments, I fancy myself a semi competitive player so this is quite a bummer. Maybe if they FaQ it they will make a change on that.


And thank you for bringing that up!!! I remember reading that excerpt that psychic tests are leadership tests but I couldn't think of where. Thankfully they write stuff in clean lettering in the BRB.

Isn't that a hilarious thought of these semi incompetent warlock psykers failing to cast, then they look over at some decapitated heads on the venom and all of a sudden are enthralled to recast haha!

CombatDrug OD wrote:

Isn't that a hilarious thought of these semi incompetent warlock psykers failing to cast, then they look over at some decapitated heads on the venom and all of a sudden are enthralled to recast haha!

I like to think of it as my Dark Eldar shaking a disembodied Eldar head in my Farseer's direction. My farseer gets the idea and does his job correctly.

Exort1 wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Also, a leadership test =/= psychic test. I'm pretty sure the grisly trophies are going to be no help to you.

A psychic test is a leadership test, page 67 of the BRB.
Therefore grisly trophies do work for psykers

I wish it was as clear cut as that.

Page 67 indicates you take a Psychic Test not a Leadership Test in order to activate a psychic power.

Grisly Trophies let you re-roll leadership tests (which are defined on Page 7)

The question is - is a Psychic Test a subset of Leadership Tests or is a Psychic Test a test done that is similar to a Leadership Test, but is still a Psychic Test.

I find support for them not being Leadership Tests in the way they describe Morale Checks (wherein it's a *specific* type of Leadership Test and says so).

And I find trouble with it wherein they discuss Regrouping Checks, that just are Leadership Tests.

I find the whole matter quite muddy, but I do understand your take of one interpretation and don't think you're crazy to take that stance...except that I would argue it is incorrect to act like it's clear cut. It really isn't.

Thor655 wrote:

I wish it was as clear cut as that.

Page 67 indicates you take a Psychic Test not a Leadership Test in order to activate a psychic power.

Grisly Trophies let you re-roll leadership tests (which are defined on Page 7)

The question is - is a Psychic Test a subset of Leadership Tests or is a Psychic Test a test done that is similar to a Leadership Test, but is still a Psychic Test.

I find support for them not being Leadership Tests in the way they describe Morale Checks (wherein it's a *specific* type of Leadership Test and says so).

And I find trouble with it wherein they discuss Regrouping Checks, that just are Leadership Tests.

I find the whole matter quite muddy, but I do understand your take of one interpretation and don't think you're crazy to take that stance...except that I would argue it is incorrect to act like it's clear cut. It really isn't.

Um either the french/english version of the BRB have different wordings or you're looking at the wrong paragraph.
On page 67 in the right column, it's written in bold that "a psychic test is a leadership test", when explaining how it has to use the psyker's leadership.
The way I understand it is that a psychic test is a subset of a leadership test, just like a morale test is a subset of a leadership test as well.

Yay my first post on the forum breaks out into debate!!

Also it's verified, page 67 in bold writing it says

A psychic test IS a leadership test

End of debate it's in the Frenchman's rule book and in my American/English one

You guys might not have thought that grisly trophies were very practical before but now if you want consistent psychic power usage, AND the ability to save your psykers from perils of the warp you probably want to take a few decapitated heads chained to your skimmers!!!!

And to think I have only played Space marines, tyranids, and sisters of battle. My cheese finding skills are improving.....muahahahaa!!!!

Exort1 wrote:

Um either the french/english version of the BRB have different wordings or you're looking at the wrong paragraph.
On page 67 in the right column, it's written in bold that "a psychic test is a leadership test", when explaining how it has to use the psyker's leadership.
The way I understand it is that a psychic test is a subset of a leadership test, just like a morale test is a subset of a leadership test as well.

No, they are worded the same I suspect;

"A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another model, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership"

The thing is, it's clearly not a Leadership Test without question, otherwise they'd call it a Leadership Test. It's a Psychic Test...and a Psychic Test is a leadership test with certain exceptions...so then do all effects that affect a leadership test affect a Psychic Test that is a Leadership Test albeit with exceptions? Maybe...?

Morale is different, as I noted - they *specifically* say it is a type of leadership test.

"Morale checks are a specific kind of Leadership test."

That is different wording than the Psychic Test one. Now, I'm not arguing that it's impossible. I can certainly see taking what they wrote as it being specifically a type of leadership test. That said, I can easily see the other direction argued as well - and as shown with the Morale check one, they have decided to word both in two different ways which tends to suggest (one would hope) that they meant it in two different ways.

Just as added grit, there is also a Regroup check, which is a "normal Leadership test"
Meaning they admit to having non-normal leadership tests. (generally seeming to affect success numbers)

All I'm saying is - make sure you check with any tourney organizer if you plan to do it. I think there is solid evidence via Fear, Regrouping and Morale to argue it - but I don't see everyone being sold because GW decided to give a bunch of tests different names and then also call them Leadership Tests because...hey, awesome rule writing.

Although keep in mind if you roll double 1's, you cannot re roll the perils because technically you didn't FAIL the test, so it helps in almost every circumstance except for double 1's perils, double 6's and guess what warp? Go screw yourself I'm casting this bitch again haha

Ah I see your point. I understand how it may not appear to be 100% clear to everybody. Personally I feel that the "A Psychic test is a Leadership test" part of the sentence pretty much means you can re-roll it with trophies, because it IS a leadership test, even though it has its restrictions, the sentence clearly states that it's a leadership test. But yeah I understand where you're coming from, this is just one of those things you have to make sure before the game your opponent agrees with you, damn GW rule writing

It's hardly their worst rule, but it is written a touch futzy considering how else they wrote what is (presumably) the same information. If Morale is a specific type of leadership test - shouldn't psychic, fear, and regroup be? Why not say that? If it's meaningless, why say it for morale? I presume grisly trophies work on "normal" leadership tests, do they work on all of them? It would make...reasonable sense that they did...but...they don't really say so either.

The weirdness is really that they invented fear tests, morale checks, regroup checks, and psychic tests (they can't even decide on check or test here) and then said, well, basically, these are all some variation of the Leadership test.

Why not just ruddy say then 'to activate a psychic power you take a leadership test using the psyker model's leadership'. No, they decided to create multiple other game terms that may or may not be synonyms to 'leadership test' with various exceptions applied to them.

No other characteristic test gets this sort of flim-flam applied to it.

In 5th edition the activation of a psychic power *was* a leadership test.
That means they invented this term 'psychic test' for...some reason (we would think). I'm not sure what, there are powers and effects that only apply to psychic tests now, that don't apply to leadership tests, but does that mean all leadership test effects will still apply the other way?

Probably?

I just wish I could say 'definitely' or 'definitely not'.

Don't grisly trophies say you can re-roll ALL leadership based tests. That would mean any test in which you use your leadership. Like psychic, moral, pinning, fear etc.

You get to re-roll any failed Leadership tests.
A Leadership test is specifically defined, it's not just about being a dice roll involving leadership.

It certainly includes morale, pinning, fear, and regrouping as they are specifically defined as types of leadership tests. Psychic tests...it probably includes those too. The debate arises in that all the other tests and checks are noted as leadership tests that are then called something else. The Psychic test is called a Psychic test and uses leadership test rules with exceptions - it's the only one worded that way.

It's probably all gak and is meant to be the same, but YMMV.

Ok well I could confidently say that this debate has slowed down a bit, I have my views and everyone has theirs.

None the less can we talk a bit more about my army list?

So there is a reason for why I am bringing a ridiculous amount of anti infantry/heavy infantry. That is pretty much what everyone is bringing competitively in 6th edition. I have seen a gigantic decline in the parking lot armies that ruled 4th and 5th edition. Tau battle suits, blood angels jump pack armies, grey knights, tyranids, biker armies, demons, and orks are all easy to handle.

In my opinion troops win the game, I don't care about popping support tanks in the first turn, ill eradicate all your scoring units and take out your anti air capabilities. Then worry about your tanks with the fliers and blasterborn in turns 3-5.

I think this army has some great potential to do some amazing things competively, the only thing I'm waiting on is an FAQ to come out that hopefully clearly says that warlocks can be taken in an allied detachment....

Well, no psykers are allowed in comorragh...

I think it's not intended to be able to re-roll psychic tests, bot all other forms of leadership tests.

That's my two cents.

I wouldn't put my money on it. But i would presume it like that if i entered a tournament.
To me it makes sense that it doesn't allow re-rolls on psychic tests.

Warlocks does not use an FoC slot, so why shouldn't you be able to?

I definitely do not think it was intended to allow re rolls on psychic tests, that's beside the point, a psychic test is a leader ship test. And the trophies allow you to re roll ANY failed leadership test. I believe Phil Kelly saw this coming.....

Well and that's another debate, can you have warlocks if the eldar is not your primary detachment. PK makes it sound like you can't when reading the Eldar codex, but it makes very little sense to me why warlocks would be forbidden from any army that has Eldar as an ally and not a primary

Irakunar Thrax wrote:

Well, no psykers are allowed in comorragh...

I think it's not intended to be able to re-roll psychic tests, bot all other forms of leadership tests.

That's my two cents.

I wouldn't put my money on it. But i would presume it like that if i entered a tournament.
To me it makes sense that it doesn't allow re-rolls on psychic tests.

Just like infantry or lemans going through thick ruin wall makes sense, even that, that same wall magicaly gets back up again after they finish going through it, so it can BLOS and grant cover again. Just like you can trace line of sight through 6 ruin windows, and see a tiny panel on a vehicle 1mmx1mm big, and yet you can squeeze in a big ass missile through those key holes, to cause penetration. Yet you can shoot between legs of your enemy, to perfectly hit units behind them. There is hardly logic in 40k realy

For what I know, psychic test doesn't have any differences, other than the fact, that model manifesting it tests with his own LD. Doesn't change the fact it is a Leadership test. but I'd say, go with the way GT play

About the warlocks. Unlike Dark Angels codex entry for belial, who can make Deathwing scoring ONLY if DA are primary detachment which is stated perfectly clear in their brand new codex. Eldar codex on the other hand, says "Each primary detachment in your army". Doesn't say it anywhere, that it has to be Eldar as primary.