Whats the Anti-Air?

Am I missing something here? Or did we get a new Codex and have no new options to deal with enemy flyers?

150 for a Razorwing with two Dark Lance shots.
160 for a Voidraven with two Void Lance shots.

Either way I think the dog fight will be: take two shots and flying right passed their flyer. Then wait to fly off board so we can try again turn 5...

Our anti-air capability can be summed up as whingeing incessantly until our opponents stop bringing their flyers.

Our AA is basically Codex Eldar.

There's always the aegis defense line.

Some guy on another forum I'm on insists Razorwings are good flyers.

lmao.

I'm of the opinion Razorwings are awesome, myself.

Do I expect it to shoot and kill the enemy flyer? No. Do I expect its shots to make the enemy have to jink and waste one of its few turns on the board. Yes. Also, it's the kind of unit that I think gets better and better in multiples.

The reason I really like the razorwing though is that its missile loadout lets it wipe an infantry unit off the board in addition to its threat against armor values. The new price point is fantastic to me and makes it a very efficient and versatile model imo.

Isnt it only 5 pts cheaper?

They should twin linked the Dark Lances.

Yeah, only 5 points if you take the lances. It's not a lot cheaper than it was but it has become far more efficient compared to its main competition, the ravager.

Ravager went up in cost and lost some of its output. Comparatively, I'd call the Razorwing tougher, more versatile, and more lethal for 15 points more.

Considered on its own, I think it easily makes its points back in terms of how much it will kill and what a pain in the ass it will be for enemies.

fine, but I dont think its fair to say "the new price point is fantastic".
5 pts is entirely irrelevant.

It cant kill flyers, and it's our only AA- therefore its a fail in my book.

That's if you take lances though. It got a 15 point drop if you're willing to keeping it dedicated anti infantry (which is easy to do with at least 1 if you're taking multiple). Stack it up against other 130 point units and see how many others can kill as much while still being as hard to bring down as it is.

Killing the flyer is often less important to me than rendering it useless. A single razorwing has a very high chance of forcing snap shots from the opponent, and if you really need one dead then having a couple razorwings will bring it down.

The problem with your logical reasoning (and I really do see the logic behind it) is this:
Does the book lack things that can kill infantry?

Does the book lack AA?

As an AI unit It looks decent. But entirely, entirely superfluous.

Are you saying anti air or anti armor? Interestingly enough with the new codex, I'm finding a lot of my ground units are being shifted to armor duties like scourges so I was actually needing the infantry killing power from the jetfighter.

Before, I had nothing for flyers because I couldn't really justify the razorwing over the ravagers and I just had to try to minimize the damage from night scythes especially. Now I think I can field 2 or 3 razorwings and prevent the death ray from running the table, but you're right that I don't think I'll be reliably killing them. Just dramatically reducing their effect on the table.

lessthanjeff wrote:

Are you saying anti air or anti armor?  Interestingly enough with the new codex, I'm finding a lot of my ground units are being shifted to armor duties like scourges so I was actually needing the infantry killing power from the jetfighter.

Before, I had nothing for flyers because I couldn't really justify the razorwing over the ravagers and I just had to try to minimize the damage from night scythes especially.  Now I think I can field 2 or 3 razorwings and prevent the death ray from running the table, but you're right that I don't think I'll be reliably killing them.  Just dramatically reducing their effect on the table.

Making Night Scythes Jink does little to decrease their effectiveness though, as they still on average cause 4 hits even when jinking!

How about we wait for the next codex?

It's just the doom ray thing I've been trying to avoid though. I still need to get a hold of the necron codex to look at it because I feel like something is being played wrong, but they've been hitting me with strength 10 ap 1 attacks that I can't jink against and instant kill my grotesque even when they're locked in close combat. That it doesn't have to roll to hit or anything and can usually cover multiple units with automatic pens and a 50% chance of explodes results has been killing me. I just want to make those guys snapshoot, so I don't really care if I actually kill the models.

I'm a fan of the razorwing this codex. Not because it got much better, but because it's about as good as a ravager now. And it can hit flyers. Adhemar is right though if you want more competent AA, like everything else run Eldar.

You know where they really dropped the ball? Would it have been so hard to make some AT missiles for our flyers? The Blood Angels have some pretty competent Bloodstrike missiles on their Storm Raven.

No, instead you can exchange them for missiles that do the exact same thing as monoscythe missiles or pay 5 points for missiles that still wound everything on a 2 but now allow orcs, tyranids, and guardsmen to make armor saves. I honestly don't understand why they'd basically give us three versions of the same weapon on the same unit. Sigh

I know that not everybody plays them, but since we in our gaming group have really taken well to the Maestrom Missions, we have also taken really well to the mysterious objectives. It makes objectives even more important and has even more tactical significance.

The Skyfire Nexus is likely to come up quite often, and our advantage is that our Ravagers are so quick, we can quite easily get them to where they want to be.

We have all found that in our local gaming community, this minor change has staged a major re-balancing with regards to fliers. My old tactic of cross my fingers and hope that they don't come in, and if they do, that they don't hit me (not fantastic tactics). This way has worked much better.

p.s. The plus 1 cover save is super fantastic, especially if one is discovered on the way up the board, and you can use it as a route to get your Raiders up. Especially with the new Night Shields, a 2+ jink within that 6" diameter (more if you consider you only need a bit of the Raider within 3") is a big helping hand.

DestroyApathy wrote:

p.s. The plus 1 cover save is super fantastic, especially if one is discovered on the way up the board, and you can use it as a route to get your Raiders up. Especially with the new Night Shields, a 2+ jink within that 6" diameter (more if you consider you only need a bit of the Raider within 3") is a big helping hand.

I love this - never saw it as much use until now! Looking forward to annoying people with that one, I can just imagine the conversation now.

"Right, time to shoot that raider off the objective."
"Good luck, I have a 2+ jink save."
" "

ok, won't work against some things, but it'll be fun seeing their faces the first time!

I just yell obscenities.....

Getting a 2+ that way is nice, but it also means you're not accomplishing anything significant due to snapshots. It would probably feel the same as when my maulerfiends get immobilized and people just walk around barely 1 inch away to taunt him.

Back on topic...I've been doing a lot of list building the last couple of days and every time I create a list I come back to the same question - How do I deal with enemy flyers? The sad answer to that question is that I cannot do it whilst staying within the DE Codex. There is literally nothing in our codex that will reliably deal with flyers. I desperately want a pure DE force but I know I will come up against Stormravens/Talons, Cron Air, Helldrakes etc and if I have nothing to deal with those then they will decimate my army.

I was thinking of picking up another razorwing, possibly a voidraven (still undecided on that one)
But what in the craftworld 'dex is AA? And what makes it so superior and competitive compared to our own?
P.s I've only really used jetbikes and a wraithknight from the eldar 'dex.

flakmonkey wrote:

I was thinking of picking up another razorwing, possibly a voidraven (still undecided on that one)
But what in the craftworld 'dex is AA? And what makes it so superior and competitive compared to our own?
P.s I've only really used jetbikes and a wraithknight from the eldar 'dex.

Both our own flyers are severely outperformed by the enemy flyers you'll be facing. Or generally outperformed by anything at all.

CWE bring Wave Serpents. They generally work against anything currently in-game.

So it's not that craftworld fliers are better, it's just that they bring wave serpents?
I'm vaguely disappointed that's the answer, tbh.
I've read so much amount about the WS lately. It's better than our transports, it's better than our AT, and now it's better than our aircraft.
What will everything be compared to when the nerf hammer falls on it?

So in othe words, if I want a flier, I might as well buy a razorwing. The crimson hunter ? isn't better.

The Crimson Hunter is fantastic at shooting down enemy flyers.  It gets 4 strength 8 ap 2 shoots at BS5 (if you take the exarch upgrade) and has tankhunter for flying vehicles.  I've been bringing one to let my DE flyers focus on ground targets and it's basically the only reason I allied Eldar.