Wyches In Vehicles

Soo if a vehicle blows up in the assault phase the wyches still get the 4+ invul due to it happening in the fight sub phase correct?

Correct. They can dodge an explosion caused by hammers but not one caused by bolters. No idea why...

Count Adhemar wrote:

Correct. They can dodge an explosion caused by hammers but not one caused by bolters. No idea why...

I do. It's called the GW design team.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Soo if a vehicle blows up in the assault phase the wyches still get the 4+ invul due to it happening in the fight sub phase correct?

Count Adhemar wrote:

Correct. They can dodge an explosion caused by hammers but not one caused by bolters. No idea why...

I would disagree here guys as much as I like the idea

A vehicle and its embarked unit are considered separate units, so if a wych is not involved in the assault (as the vehicle is not their unit) they are never able to reach a fight subphase, the vehicle is. They would not garner the 4+ for being in a fight subphase, as the wyches are never in an assault.

The question is, can a unit benefit from a fight subphase without being in an assault? Is fight subphase specific to only the units involved in an assault or is it an army wide determination?

I would think if you aren't in an assault, fight subphases don't happen but I will have to double check my rulebook-its early here and Im uncaffeinated as of yet.My first instinct is no, they are not in an assault, fight subphases do not apply.

That being said if they do benefit, Im Aether-sailling and deepstriking wyches  into the teeth of some opponents a helluva lot more

The fight sub-phase is simply the section of the assault phase in which fighting actually occurs. You do not have to be involved in an assault to be 'in' the fight sub-phase. If the Dodge rule applied to wounds inflicted in the Shooting phase would you say that Wyches could not benefit from it if they hadn't shot anything?

Count Adhemar wrote:

Correct. They can dodge an explosion caused by hammers but not one caused by bolters. No idea why...

They saw that dirty great axe heading for the raider's engine and jumped like rats off a sinking ship?

Count Adhemar wrote:

The fight sub-phase is simply the section of the assault phase in which fighting actually occurs. You do not have to be involved in an assault to be 'in' the fight sub-phase. If the Dodge rule applied to wounds inflicted in the Shooting phase would you say that Wyches could not benefit from it if they hadn't shot anything?

Actually your determination of fight subphase is where I believe the error is.

The shooting phase is a full step in turn determination. Movement phase, psychic phase, shooting phase, assault phase.These apply equally to both armies. The assault phase requires two subphases however in order to complete it, both have rules that need to be satisfied.

brb p.44 fight subphase;

Quote :

The fight subphase is when models from both sides make their melee attacks

The wyches never get to enter melee, they are never in a fight subphase.

brb p.45 details overwatch and its exclusions, we all know open topped allows embarked units to fire (yay) however this is in the charge subphase. p.44 again;

Quote :

in the charge subphase, you declare charges and your models move into close combat. Close combat is where two units from opposing armies are in base contact with each other...1.Declare charge. 2. resolve overwatch....Declare next charge or finish charge subphase.

Wyches are part of the charge subphase, but not the fight subphase.

brb p.47

Quote :

units that are locked in close combat must fight in the assault phase...

The wyche transport is in combat, not the wyches. They are never locked, nor are they ever in base contact.

brb p.49 regarding pile in moves

Quote :

...if both players Pile in moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatant back together...the assault comes to an end. all remaining initiative steps are lost

This is only important as we are discussing an infantry unit- they would only get to pile in if they were in an assault, they never were and don't BUT the part about assault ending is important, and all remaining initiative steps being lost.

brb p.78 Vehicles in the assault phase

Quote :

...vehicles do not pile in and cannot be locked in combat...if the vehicle loses or is destroyed, nothing happens. There are no sweeping advances, no pile ins and no consolidation moves.

I read this as even clearer than a failed pile in move. The assault is over. done. kaput. The exploding vehicle was in an assault and as soon as it blew up the assault phase, and any impending fight subphases, ended.

If wyches, locked in combat, were hit by an errant blast template in the shooting or psychic phase, you wouldn't argue they have a 4+ invulnerable save because they were in an assault would you-even if the fight subphase was bound to happen ?

Count Adhemar wrote:

The fight sub-phase is simply the section of the assault phase in which fighting actually occurs. You do not have to be involved in an assault to be 'in' the fight sub-phase. If the Dodge rule applied to wounds inflicted in the Shooting phase would you say that Wyches could not benefit from it if they hadn't shot anything?

I agree with this - Wyches get the rule during the sub phase. There is no other requirement, and there is nothing that obligates a unit to be in an assault to be "in" the fight sub-phase.

Extending this argument though to its logical conclusion, if the vehicle explodes in the fight sub-phase then the wyches aren't involved and can't be wounded by it...

I agree with the Count that the fight sub phase is a period of time starting with the I10 attacks and ending when all combats are resolved, either through one side being wiped or all initiative steps having fought, it's not a state of being like locked in combat is.

Ask yourself this question. when do the wounds caused by the explosion happen? It cannot be after the fight sub phase, because that's the next player's turn, so it must be during it, in which case the dodge save applies.

And no, I wouldn't argue that they get their dodge save against an errant template, because those wounds happen in the shooting phase, when the dodge isn't active.

apologies TBE, it was a bit of a facetious question on my part. Wyches are aboard the transport, p. 82 vehicle explodes.

Fight subphase only happens in the assault phase, where units can fight a close combat.

Wyches, and the entire army, are subject to the assault phase however only units in close combat are in the fight subphase. it has four steps.

1.Choose a combat  (enemy vs transport)

2.Fight close combat (enemy vs. transport)

3.Determine assault results (transport blows up)

4.Choose next combat or finish fight subphase.

After step 3, combat is over. Fight subphase is finished, no units are in combat, for above reasons and page numbers posted.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Ask yourself this question. when do the wounds caused by the explosion happen? It cannot be after the fight sub phase, because that's the next player's turn, so it must be during it, in which case the dodge save applies.

Interesting point. When does the explosion damage take effect? The fight is over the moment the vehicle is destroyed so do wounds happen simultaneously or do they occur immediately after before the start of the next turn, like morale and pinning checks do. If you hold that the wyches are in a fight subphase this would be important, but again I hold they are never in combat and cannot benefit from a fight subphase.

Show me where they get a fight subphase, or even take part in a fight subphase when not involved in an actual close combat, and I will gladly take a 4+ invuln vs. explosions. I cannot in good conscience do so, unless my opponent was engaged in real shenanigans....

cool, so using the quotes you've listed above, brb p44 states that the fight sub phase is when models from both sides make their melee attacks.

This means the fight sub phase is a period of time when something happens, not a state of being like being locked in combat. if the dodge stated that they got a 4++ against wounds caused against them while they were locked in combat I'd agree with you but it says all wounds inflicted in the fight sub-phase.

It's probably another example of something happening that designers didn't anticipate being an issue (how many times do our transports live long enough to get charged instead of shot down?)

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

Wyches, and the entire army, are subject to the assault phase however only units in close combat are in the fight subphase.

The Dodge rule does not require that Wyches be 'in' the fight sub-phase (which I still disagree is tied to them being in a combat), only that the Wounds are inflicted in the fight sub-phase. Let's say that your opponent chooses his TH/SS Terminators vs your Wych-laden Venom as the first fight to deal with in the fight sub-phase. He hits several times, penetrate and explodes the Venom. There are other fights that need to be resolved so the fight sub-phase is ongoing. Do the Wyches take the wounds from the explosion? If so, when?

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

1.Choose a combat  (enemy vs transport)

2.Fight close combat (enemy vs. transport)

3.Determine assault results (transport blows up)

4.Choose next combat or finish fight subphase.

After step 3, combat is over. Fight subphase is finished, no units are in combat, for above reasons and page numbers posted.

By this logic the Wyches get their save as long as the combat they're in is not the final one on the table as the Fight Subphase continues happening.

But I agree with the Count.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

cool, so using the quotes you've listed above, brb p44 states that the fight sub phase is when models from both sides make their melee attacks.

This means the fight sub phase is a period of time when something happens, not a state of being like being locked in combat. if the dodge stated that they got a 4++ against wounds caused against them while they were locked in combat I'd agree with you but it says all wounds inflicted in the fight sub-phase.

True, and not denying that it is a period of time from Initiative step 10 to 1 specifically. However I am asserting that as they are never in combat, and cannot satisfy any of the steps in determining the fight subphase, they don't gain the benefit of their special rule

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

It's probably another example of something happening that designers didn't anticipate being an issue (how many times do our transports live long enough to get charged instead of shot down?)

Couldn't agree more mate!

Count Adhemar wrote:

The Dodge rule does not require that Wyches be 'in' the fight sub-phase (which I still disagree is tied to them being in a combat), only that the Wounds are inflicted in the fight sub-phase. Let's say that your opponent chooses his TH/SS Terminators vs your Wych-laden Venom as the first fight to deal with in the fight sub-phase. He hits several times, penetrate and explodes the Venom. There are other fights that need to be resolved so the fight sub-phase is ongoing. Do the Wyches take the wounds from the explosion? If so, when?

That's part of my point there as the wyches were never in combat-they were not charged, they are not in base contact with an enemy, and cannot satisfy any of the steps listed under fight subphase. When the vehicle explodes it ends the assault phase, no models are in base contact anymore no one is locked in combat.  

The rulebook is pretty clear on completing each combat before moving on to the next one, p.48. until all combats are resolved. So once the venom blows up, that combat is done and on to the next.

Here is a question, your wyches slam into a tactical squad. Both sides fight and combat is a draw, to be continued next turn. However 4 inches away another combat rages with a dreadnaught that gets blown up and explodes 6 inches, hitting wyches from the first combat. Do they get a 4+ invuln save? Do the wyches in combat with the dreadnaught? As soon as the vehicle explodes, combat is over, and the other combat was already fought and it too ended. How would you rule there?

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

That's part of my point there as the wyches were never in combat-they were not charged, they are not in base contact with an enemy, and cannot satisfy any of the steps listed under fight subphase. When the vehicle explodes it ends the assault phase, no models are in base contact anymore no one is locked in combat.

Again, nothing in the Dodge rule requires them to be in combat.  

Quote :

The rulebook is pretty clear on completing each combat before moving on to the next one, p.48. until all combats are resolved. So once the venom blows up, that combat is done and on to the next.

And all of this occurs in the same fight sub-phase.

Quote :

Here is a question, your wyches slam into a tactical squad. Both sides fight and combat is a draw, to be continued next turn. However 4 inches away another combat rages with a dreadnaught that gets blown up and explodes 6 inches, hitting wyches from the first combat. Do they get a 4+ invuln save? Do the wyches in combat with the dreadnaught? As soon as the vehicle explodes, combat is over, and the other combat was already fought and it too ended. How would you rule there?

Yes, they all get their Dodge save because the wounds are inflicted in the fight sub-phase as required by the Dodge rule.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

True, and not denying that it is a period of time from Initiative step 10 to 1 specifically. However I am asserting that as they are never in combat, and cannot satisfy any of the steps in determining the fight subphase, they don't gain the benefit of their special rule

Do you think Wyches are "in" the assault phase?

Because I feel like you're arguing that if I, say, don't move my wyches, then I'm not "in" the movement phase.

All models are in the assault phase.
The assault phase is split into two sub-phase parts.
Whether or not you're taking an action, you are "in" a given part of the phase and thus "in" the assault phase, yeah?

I think the movement phase counter example really clarifies where I'm drawing the mental difference here.

With respect please let me make sure I understand you Count.

You are saying if there is still an assault somewhere on the table then all wyches, locked in combat or not, despite having worked through Initiative step 10 to 1 in each of said other combats, or just standing in the open, or even riding in a vehicle qualify for a 4+ dodge save from any possible damage until the end of the turn?

Not trying to be funny at all here but if I extend that logic it would seem to me if I put a wych in a raider with splinter racks, that they would all get twin linked with their shooting too doesn't it?

Thor 665 wrote:

....I feel like you're arguing that if I, say, don't move my wyches, then I'm not "in" the movement phase.

All models are in the assault phase.
The assault phase is split into two sub-phase parts.
Whether or not you're taking an action, you are "in" a given part of the phase and thus "in" the assault phase, yeah?

Not at all Thor, that they are in the assault phase is not in question. That they are in and take part in a fight subphase is the question, as the Dodge states all wounds inflicted in the fight subphase grant a 4+ invuln save. I assert that if they are not able to satisfy any of the requirements of the fight subphase, that they are not in it and do not qualify for a 4+ dodge

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have it! I just don't see how it applies.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

Not at all Thor, that they are in the assault phase is not in question. That they are in and take part in a fight subphase is the question, as the Dodge states all wounds inflicted in the fight subphase grant a 4+ invuln save. I assert that if they are not able to satisfy any of the requirements of the fight subphase, that they are not in it and do not qualify for a 4+ dodge

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have it! I just don't see how it applies.

Per the rulebook (pg 44) - the assault phase is split into two subphases.

If you are in the assault phase you are in the subphases.

What logic are you using to suggest they are not part of the sub phases if you agree they are in the phase those subphases are made out of?

I feel you are equating "being in a combat" with "being in the fight sub-phase"
I see no reason to support this distinction, especially if you agree all models are in the assault phase.
Can you clarify how you make it?

So I talked to some guys in my meta and they all agree that that is what it says. So vehicle explosions in the fight sub phase allows the wyches a 4++. I'll continue to ask other guys around my area but most seem to agree to it.

Thor665 wrote:

If you are in the assault phase you are in the subphases.

What logic are you using to suggest they are not part of the sub phases if you agree they are in the phase those subphases are made out of?

My logic is that the wyches in question must follow the 4 steps listed on p.44.

Thor665 wrote:

I feel you are equating "being in a combat" with "being in the fight sub-phase"

First step of fight subphase, pick a combat. If they aren't in combat how can you choose it? And if they aren't in combat, how can they be in a fight subphase?

Follow me for a second;

If a model doesn't move, it still passes through the movement phase, but none of the rules apply to it (Vehicle terrain tests come to mind).

If a unit doesn't shoot, it still passes through the shooting phase, and none of the rules apply to it.(rapid fire, salvo etc.)

If a unit doesn't assault, or is not assaulted, then the rules do not apply to it, subphase or not. The vehicle was assaulted, the wyches were not. They are two separate units. They do not benefit from the fight subphase.
(Assault is the only phase in which you get the opportunity to act out of turn-it is a shared phase with your opponent. Hence the clarification above did not assault or was not assaulted)

At least that's how I read it. Again, my heart wants it to be so. In editions past wyches could blow up a vehicle and die to that same explosion. I just don't see how its changed, Vect knows I'd love it to!

edit: the ruleset is rife with ignoring phases, die rolls and results. As an example consider a five man tactical squad is in the shooting phase, five bolters fire at a unit 22" away scoring three wounds. It is found only two models are in range of the bolters max 24" range, as per shooting rules only these models can be allocated wounds. Even if they fail all three saves, the third wound is ignored as no model is in range to take it.

I point this out as an example of a rule step, un-saved wounds, being ignored-as I assert that the fight subphase is ignored if you cannot satisfy its requirements.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

My logic is that the wyches in question must follow the 4 steps listed on p.44.

I will agree those steps happen during the fight sub-phase.
I am not sure why those steps are required to be happening to a unit for it to be "in" the fight sub-phase.
Isn't the fight sub-phase simply the period of time during which those steps are done?

I don't move all my units in the movement phase (well, actually, yeah, I usually do, but ) but that doesn't mean that only those units performing the steps that are part of that phase are "in" the phase. All units are in that phase, no?

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

First step of fight subphase, pick a combat. If they aren't in combat how can you choose it? And if they aren't in combat, how can they be in a fight subphase?

So we agree that you are equating "being in combat" with "being in the fight sub-phase"

Okay, I'll follow you.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

If a model doesn't move, it still passes through the movement phase, but none of the rules apply to it (Vehicle terrain tests come to mind).

Agreed.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

If a unit doesn't shoot, it still passes through the shooting phase, and none of the rules apply to it.(rapid fire, salvo etc.)

Agreed.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

If a unit doesn't assault, or is not assaulted, then the rules do not apply to it, subphase or not. The vehicle was assaulted, the wyches were not. They are two separate units. They do not benefit from the fight subphase.

Why? Whether or not they assault they are still passing through the sub-phase, are they not? I will also note all your other examples are active rules, not passive rules.

Here's a counter thought; the Wyches are in assault, and I have a unit giving a 12" bubble of bonus to PfP (Urien is hanging out)

Would the Wyches benefit from it if Urien is not in an active combat?
He is still on the board and "in the fight sup phase"
So his power should work, right?

But if you need to be going through the steps to be "in the phase" then wouldn't that prevent me from benefiting from his power?

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

In editions past wyches could blow up a vehicle and die to that same explosion. I just don't see how its changed, Vect knows I'd love it to!

That is because the old rule gave the save to "wounds caused by close combat attacks"
The reason it is different now is because they changed the wording of the rule.
By your own logic that should support our stance - clearly if it was supposed to be the same then the wording would not have changed, yeah?

Thor665 wrote:

Isn't the fight sub-phase simply the period of time during which those steps are done?

That's where I see the wording differently. In order to be considered in the fight subphase a unit has to be in combat, the wyches never are.

Thor665 wrote:

...Whether or not they assault they are still passing through the sub-phase, are they not? I will also note all your other examples are active rules, not passive rules.

I see what you're saying, however the assault phase has distinctions of what does and does not constitute an assault, and what steps to take in the subphases.  In this case, step One, pick a combat-you cannot, as they are not in combat. Just like failed pile in moves in an actual melee combat, you skip it and move on.

Could unit A really claim a 4++ save if there is a nearby assault on unit B; the result of which is incidental damage on unit A ? Even though Unit A has finished rolling dice for its close combat?  

Thor665 wrote:

Here's a counter thought; the Wyches are in assault, and I have a unit giving a 12" bubble of bonus to PfP (Urien is hanging out)

Would the Wyches benefit from it if Urien is not in an active combat?
He is still on the board and "in the fight sup phase"
So his power should work, right?

But if you need to be going through the steps to be "in the phase" then wouldn't that prevent me from benefiting from his power?

Not at all Thor, Uriens power very clearly states any models within 12" regardless of phase. It doesn't matter what they are doing, it makes no mention of only working in specific instances beyond the limitation of the 12" bubble

Thor665 wrote:

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

In editions past wyches could blow up a vehicle and die to that same explosion. I just don't see how its changed, Vect knows I'd love it to!

That is because the old rule gave the save to "wounds caused by close combat attacks"
The reason it is different now is because they changed the wording of the rule.
By your own logic that should support our stance - clearly if it was supposed to be the same then the wording would not have changed, yeah?

I would love it too. We all know GW and its wordings can be suspect at the very best. I really think The_Burning_Eye has it right, to paraphrase its a flamingo up on GW's part.

The wyches are never in a fight subphase because they were never in an assault, they do not satisfy the rules for being in one. I do not see how they can gain the save.

The rule doesn't say "their Fight sub-phase," or "this unit's Fight sub-phase." It says "the Fight sub-phase." So the vehicle blows up in an assault. Is it the Fight sub-phase? Check. Are wounds being inflicted on the model? Check. Seems like the rule applies.

Calyptra wrote:

The rule doesn't say "their Fight sub-phase," or "this unit's Fight sub-phase." It says "the Fight sub-phase." So the vehicle blows up in an assault. Is it the Fight sub-phase? Check. Are wounds being inflicted on the model? Check. Seems like the rule applies.

That's my point, they are never in an assault. the vehicle is. They are never in combat, the vehicle is. In order to be eligible for a 4++ the wyches have to be in the fight subphase. Step one, pick a combat-You cannot. Therefore wyches are never in a combat for these purposes.

What is at the heart of this discussion is; is the Fight subphase a global effect (like the movement phase) or a local effect? I maintain it is a local effect, with specific criteria specified on p.44 that must be satisfied.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Isn't the fight sub-phase simply the period of time during which those steps are done?

That's where I see the wording differently. In order to be considered in the fight subphase a unit has to be in combat, the wyches never are.

What supports this conclusion?
No other phase requires a given set to exist in the phase.
And the assault phase consists of two sub phases - so how can Wyches even exist in the assault phase if they are not in either sub-phase?

There is nothing in the rules stating that phases are anything other than the passage of time during which you perform certain actions. Never are models counted as 'not there' in any way shape or form that I can see in any phase.

Am I missing something?

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

I see what you're saying, however the assault phase has distinctions of what does and does not constitute an assault, and what steps to take in the subphases.  In this case, step One, pick a combat-you cannot, as they are not in combat. Just like failed pile in moves in an actual melee combat, you skip it and move on.

Whether or not you skip a step has no bearing on whether or not a unit is in the phase.
I can skip moving a unit - it is still in the movement phase.
I never need to take any step within the movement phase to a unit (and the movement phase has steps) - that unit still exists in the phase as far as I can tell.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

Could unit A really claim a 4++ save if there is a nearby assault on unit B; the result of which is incidental damage on unit A ? Even though Unit A has finished rolling dice for its close combat?  

Yes - because wounds are allocated and resolved prior to the ending of the fight sub-phase. Indeed, the fight sub-phase ending signals the end of the assault phase as well, so if you don't resolve them within the timeline of the fight sub-phase you would have missed a step.

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

Not at all Thor, Uriens power very clearly states any models within 12" regardless of phase. It doesn't matter what they are doing, it makes no mention of only working in specific instances beyond the limitation of the 12" bubble

So he is within the phase then? As in - he exists, and is on the table, and a rule that takes place during all phases also takes place within the sub-phase redardless of if he is activated during said sub-phase, yes?

Darkgreen Pirate wrote:

I would love it too. We all know GW and its wordings can be suspect at the very best. I really think The_Burning_Eye has it right, to paraphrase its a flamingo up on GW's part.

The wyches are never in a fight subphase because they were never in an assault, they do not satisfy the rules for being in one. I do not see how they can gain the save.

They do not satisfy the rules for being in a combat.
Being in a combat has not been shown by you to be identical to being in the fight sub-phase.
You have to be in a combat to take certain actions within said sub-phase, I can agree with that.

I am frustrated that you argued that GW's prior ruling (based on their rules as written) applies, but dismiss that them changing the words changes their intent. They do that all the time, they change and remove words and meanings and it affects the game.

I am willing to accept your stance if it's based off the idea that GW intended it that way, regardless of what they wrote. If that's your stance I withdraw my challenge.

However if you are arguing that you need to do certain acts to exist within a sub-phase, I would like you to show me anything that supports that belief, as I do not believe you have.