Knights or LR spam tactics and builds

Hello guys,

I will soon be going against some LR spam consisting of Achilles, Crusader, Redeemer and some Sicaran battletanks and Dread HQ... pretty much everything has armour 13 at at least one facing and LRs are 14 all around with some nasty rules like ignore melta, lance, etc. The list is pretty much TAC and I would like to face it with a non-tailored list.

Same goes for Knights and their formation when we are talking against

So my question is, how would you build a TAC list that could take on these babies? Purely DE...

Problems I see:
- HWB are borne by very lightly armoured units or relatively expensive units...
- HLs are S6... apparently another thing we forgot to make properly compared to CWE...
- DLs are unreliable. Especially against AV14 with ignore Lance, so the game forces us to spam these and be lacking in AI.
- Getting close with HWG or HL or even Blasters will expose any unit to prompt destruction by assaulting Termies from the LRs. Or in the case of HWG or HL assault by Knights. Not mentioning the S6 AP3 flamers on flat-outing LRs...
- Given the amount we can muster, I am not sure we can muster enough in TAC list...
- Some missions are extremely unfriendly towards us in relation to these builds...

Solutions I see:
- HLs and HWBs are still our best shots, but we need to shoot to kill and use the terrain AND charred remains of the large tanks as the deterrent of their own movement and shooting...
- I almost said Corsair allies as the only HWG-heavy force now, but I wanted to keep purely DE. :-)
- Our mobility gives us some degree of freedom to ignore some targets.

So... I would kindly ask the more experienced to help the less experienced - like me - in finding a solution.

With the loss of reliable mass haywires, the Achilles is literally a hard counter to everything in our book.

If you're going to be playing against that crap, I would really suggest you look into Eldar allies.  Why?  Because they have access to S10 AP2 Distort weapons that don't care about the likes of Achilles and other LR-variants.  Not to mention we have a very solid way to delivering them to areas they will find most displeasing, on the side, rear, in cover, however we want.  With the Autarch in our midst, we can also deliver other popular Eldar weapons in there, and with greater accuracy. Units like Fire Dragons do wonders vs. the standard non-Achilles LR.  These elements are also our best answer to Knights, since you're just as dangerous in melee with Meltabombs.

Now that you said you want pure DE, that, my friend, is going to be really bad for you.  The only thing you can do at this point is load up on lances, blasters, blasterborn, and heat lances.  Forget the Scourges, I seriously think they're utter crap and people are just excited to use them because of their price drop.  At the end of the day, they're still 5 T3 dudes with cover saves that will die to any kind of retaliatory anti-infantry shooting.

What point range are you playing at where he can freestyle with some much AV14 big tanks?

2000 pts format. I know that I could probably solve a lot with eldar Allies. In fact I think that Spiritseers or Warlocks could bring more of what I need than Autarch in terms of Psychic Shrieks in combination with our LD debuffs. Or rerolls. Which frees me a lot of points for anti-tank.

I dont consider FW stuff as crap - meaning a "pay for advantage" stuff. Yes its very good, yes its expensive, but I find the FW stuff rules and points costs in much better balance than with GW stuff. I am in fact happy that I have some 30K players here and I am really excited to play 30K.

In all honesty, I am eagerly awaiting a Corsair update. :-) Yea... I know... Christmas 2016 maybe...

Anyway... back to topic. I 100% agree on your Scourges assessment. Without Tanking HQ they have only their alpha strike to recommend them, which is poor. Or leaves them prone to assault with WWP HQ in HL melta range. Without luck, they simply cannot kill their (and their tank/WWP) cost in any game against a competent player. Same goes for Trueborn.

As for my opponents they are competitive players with many years of experience, who relish in fluffy, but deadly combos with beautifully made armies. Everything that rules permit is permitted. I take it as my training. If I can succeed against these guys, I can succeed against anyone and I am glad I can play with them. I used to play in a club with guys who are afraid of using even 1 Helldrake because that would make them "that guys". Twas no fun. I could win 9 games out of 10 just because their lists were so poorly built that you would not believe it. It was not because of my tactic. It was because of theirs. Now I am getting a chance to really play big. And with DE its a great and fun challenge. However, sadly, I am ready to the fact that I will have to ally Eldar to have any meaningful chance...

But... there are others on this forum who might face some of this in a more friendly version (like normal LR rush) and I think it might be beneficial to know how to deal with it best.

Quote :

But... there are others on this forum who might face some of this in a more friendly version (like normal LR rush) and I think it might be beneficial to know how to deal with it best.

But we're not concerned at all with LR rush, as we have lances for days and even more once they get within Blaster range.  That's why you slowly push against that kind of list because at best, you can use the terrain to your advantage as you get closer and closer towards them.

For example, this is the pure DE list I play in an mechanized meta:

Quote :

Updated: 10/14/14
1850
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster, Haywire = 115

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Your opening reply is 15 lances and as you reach the 18" range mark, you're adding +6.  Razors coming in gives you +4, the Blasterborn unit itself gives you +6 (Blasterchron and Raider).  By T2, you can have 31 lances at your opponent if nothing dies (tall order, but it exists).  You still have enough anti-infantry via the gunboats to do something, but you can always drop the entire unit down and save 165 points (enough for another Razorwing or a unit of 9x Reavers with Heat Lances if you also cut some sails).

The fact of the matter is:  DE does not care about Land Raiders.  To us, they're overpriced Chimeras because you're essentially shooting at the same thing.  As an Dark Eldar player.. when life throws you lemons, shoot more Dark Lances.

I'll quote something I said in another thread:

Quote :

Amornar wrote:

Good suggestions HERO...I don't think dropping the sslyth is an option for Sky...

Then I would argue he doesn't have enough anti-tank and an over saturation of poison.

S8 AP2 Lance is not just our answer for vehicles btw, it's the answer to everything in life, Terminators, Bikes, Riptides, Dreadknights, Wraithknights that are exposed, basically anything T4 multi-wound (Oblits, Broadsides, Nobz), the list goes on and on.

We have plenty of anti-infantry in our army, and while that can be a good thing, it can be misleading when designing your list.  We have to maximize on our lances if we're to make a big impression on targets with 2+ AS because we don't have reliable melee solutions to those.  Poison is good, but not enough to punch holes in what we really need to down in most cases.  That's why you must have a healthy amount of lances in your army.

Which is another reason why I don't like Scourges with HWB.  They do absolutely jack crap to a lot of the targets I listed above.

Out of everything your opponents can bring, the one thing that really stands out is the ridiculous Achilles.  That thing was made to reduce everything that we have to paperweight, and I god damn hate the designers for that.  Before, our reply was a quick swift kick in the nuts via Wyches with Haywires, but now we have to rely on Eldar allies to bring in Wraithguard.  The same can apply with Imperial Knights, but because you can pin-point drop the Blasterchron's unit, you can get easy shots from the back.  That and the fact you can use your speed to get around the void shields sometimes.

Eldar just brings so much to the table for us, especially with the Autarch's Fusion Gun and Archon's WWP/Blaster combo.  It allows us to bring in reserves with consistency, gives us Wraithguard, Wraithknights, and Fire Dragons, all of which just reduce mech lists to molten slag.  The Wraithguard are especially effective, as you can take a big unit of 10 of them, run them with a Spiritseer (Iyandnen CAD), attach the WWP/Blasterchron and you're good to go.  Now you're walking around with T6 3+ and a Archon tanking all the hits with Shadowfield from the front, after you've casted Invisibility on yourself, forcing everything to snap shot at you.  It's ridiculous, and can single-handily walk over the entire LR force by itself.

The Wraithknight also allows you to threaten AV14 turn after turn from a distance, can keep pace with the rest of your army, and punch out the Achilles in close combat because of S10 MC and a decent amount of attacks.

If you want to play competitive, play competitive.  Taking a pure DE list is not as competitive as Eldar allies, but it does have answers specifically for the Land Raider.  Vs. the Achilles, you have to look elsewhere.

OK. Lets assume all that is true. As I really think it is. But I want to focus on one thing - WK... Is it really better to bring 1 WK than 2 Talos? 6 wounds with T7 FNP AS 3+, 2 weapons to fire and 10! attacks with S7 Shred for almost the same pts?

EDIT: Is it really worth to take Ravagers over FW Reapers considering FW meta?

EDIT2: I am actually working on the presumption that it is better to fire lances/melta on a full-hp vehicle and haywire on a wounded 1-2HP vehicle... the gain is just better. Thats why I think that haywire weapons do have their place.

Also I have seen some purely assault DE builds with wyches (yea!) that were quite good which would benefit from HWB scourges greatly given the amount of targets they present and have to be dealt with on T2, which is our most important turn in the game now, I believe...

aurynn wrote:

OK. Lets assume all that is true. As I really think it is. But I want to focus on one thing - WK... Is it really better to bring 1 WK than 2 Talos? 6 wounds with T7 FNP AS 3+, 2 weapons to fire and 10! attacks with S7 Shred for almost the same pts?

A Strength 10 (reliable against any armour value), T8 (immune to STR 4 weaponry), 12" ignore terrain moving MC that fires two STR 10 AP2 shots? Yeah, totally worth it over 2 Taloi.

The Eldar codex does about everything a little to a lot better than the Dark Eldar codex. It really is a shame, but the Dark Eldar codex just exists for a WWP carrying HQ to field with Eldar in the competitive scene. DE don't bring much of anything that the Eldar codex just doesn't do better.

That is also true, but it is also true that I killed a WK with agoniser on charge with my archon in previous edition... I could not kill 2 Taloi without an insane amount of luck...

And I disagree on the latter. It does seem so. Yes they are a tough opponent, but yet again... they are tough for anyone, but even 5 WS and 2 WK build is not undefeatable... Its actually simpler for us to bring down than for most others as discussed elsewhere.

The only great, great and thrice great advantage of the Eldar is rerolls. Not their serpents, not their ignore cover shield shots, not their WKs or WG... the rerolls. Because with the rerolls their plans do not fail... They can mitigate the 33% miss chance to 11% miss chance, which is sooooo huuuge, that half of my kabal would murder their families just to learn that trait...

Quote :

And I disagree on the latter. It does seem so. Yes they are a tough opponent, but yet again... they are tough for anyone, but even 5 WS and 2 WK build is not undefeatable... Its actually simpler for us to bring down than for most others as discussed elsewhere.

That list exists soley to punish 2 specific lists in the meta: Mechdar that's not running WK, and pure Tau, as both of these have no solid solution vs. 2x WK.

I agree with Mandor in saying that the Wraithknight is superior.  He just offers so much more to the table not only in durability (vs. most things in the meta as opposed to niche things like Agonizers), threat range and better weapons.  The fact that he's S10 also gives him dominance over T5 mult-wound and just stomps the crap outta any vehicle in close combat.  Being completely immune to bolters, while hilarious, is not as impactful as a meltaguns and lances only wounding on 4s.

I guess that considering that he breaks the "bolter vulnerability barrier" and renders Melta and Lance as effective as on Achilles for much less points does count for something. With its mobility double so... And converting a WK into DE variant is just so sweeeeet... MUHEHEHEHE! :-D I just love the thought of making anything Eldar evil. :-D

But... for now... I am devising a purely DE list that will be able to deal with all that. Will let you know how it goes. I have a game against Space Wolves on Saturday going. Relatively easy army with much more experienced player at the wheel. I almost managed to beat him in last two games with 5E dex, only me panicking needlesly made him the victor.

EDIT: Two Ravagers are also Immune to bolters and 6 lances is nothing to sniff at...

aurynn wrote:

EDIT: Two Ravagers are also Immune to bolters and 6 lances is nothing to sniff at...

1 HP off a Wave Serpent a turn

Yea. Ravagers are not 100% universal. Nothing is. WKs die like lil pussies to poison and I dont see Eldar crying...

I strongly believe that should DE be played more, WK numbers would diminish. But we remain a niche army. And that gives us a certain level of advantage and disadvantage...

5×5 Scourges with HWB

Okay, so I had a game against a LR, LR Achilles, AV14 HQ Walker and 2 Rhinos. Killpoints mission... and I managed to pull a draw! I will try to do a batrep during today. I made some interesting observations.

EDIT: Here is the batrep.