Help against Space Wolves Hammer and Anvil list

Just wondering if anyone has faced the new Space Wolves with our new DE codex yet.  My regular opponent will be playing what I like to think of as a hammer and anvil style list with two squads of TWC plus four Drop Pods  with two Dreadnaughts and two Grey Hunter(?) squads for an alpha strike kind of list.  We're good friends so he was very open about his plan:  use the Drop Pods to fix me in place while he gets the TWC squads in charge range.  

To nullify his alpha strike potential I was thinking of only starting with something very resilient like a Dark Artisan formation or a Grotesquerie squad on the board and then bring everything else in from reserve.  Of course this risks having my army come in piece meal.  Has anyone faced this sort of list before with the new codex, and, if so, what did you find worked well against it?

Poison. That's how you beat TWC. Blasters, heat lances, Haywire blasters to take out the dreads from all sides. Surround the dreads to negate the invul they get on the front (if he brings those).

Very good advice.   Follow up question, and this may be a much larger, philosophical question, but how much poison is "enough" when building a list to face something like TWC?  Let's suppose 2 x 5 man squads.  The issue I've been running into when trying to design a list is whether to sacrifice AI for AT to handle multiple Dreadnaughts or take less AT to bring enough AI to whittle down the TWC before they can get to me? As an example, would three Warrior squads w/Blaster in Venoms backed up by 3x Lance Ravagers, and 3x Heat Lance Scourges be enough of a dual threat to handle both?

Well statistically speaking, each ravager should get you 1 damage result per turn (including glancing hits), not counting any cover/invun save your opponent has. Heat lance sourges should perform slightly better than that (just) if they're in half range and haven't been killed by arriving grey hunters.

If it were me, I'd probably try and take a pair of Talos to start on the board with haywire blasters/heat lances for AT duties to supplement your lances (HWB are the most reliable hull point strippers we have, especially on the Talos because they're twin linked).

What is the toughness and armour save of TWC? Remember if they have an invun (I seem to recall they can take storm shields?) then you're better off shooting them with poison as they're then wasting the storm shield points over normal power armour. Grotesquerie would probably be better off aiming at the TWC to be honest, their potential for ID is funny to watch (I sent four up against a unit of Tyranid warriors and watched their ID wounds kill two outright whilst weight of attacks brought down the rest).

TWC can take shields and are T5. For me a venom will do 4 wounds which means a space marine will take 1 wound. TWC will be in your face by turn 2 so 2 rounds of shooting with 1 venom will mean 1 dead TWC. So 5 venoms should do the trick. Scourges with HWB or Talos with a Cronos nearby will be trouble for a dread.

Regarding TWC, I've been going back and forth on whether it would be a good idea to engage them in CC with the Grotesquerie. On the hand, the Grots are Fearless and have Instant Death so at the very least they can hold them up for a few turns...IF (and it's a big one) my opponent doesn't bring Power Fists and/or Thunder Hammers. Both will double out Grots and make their FNP, three wounds, and IWND meaningless. So if I'm scared to charge them with Grots, what about the Dark Artisan formation? Would they stand a good chance of holding the TWC up and whittling them down?

The Dark Artisans are probably a good bet against TWC. Even if your opponent has really gone to town on the TWC and given them all TH or PF you'll still have a 4+ FNP against any wounds you take. The +1 to WS and I in that formation will be of use too, as you'll be hitting first on 3+ every turn unless you charge into terrain.

Take an ichor injector on the Talos for annoying AP2 ID...

Alternatively to playing CC oriented, if you're playing a more kabalite heavy list just remember that TWC are really nothing more than 2-wound assault marines as far as a kabalite is concerned - only a lot more expensive.

I don't quite understand how your opponent plans on "pinning you in place" with drop pods.... the units can't assault the turn they arrive so let the 2 pods come down turn one, jink to hopefully survive the shooting, then turboboost across the field. Whatever he's podded in is now isolated far away from the main battle & you can focus on one squad of T-wolves at a time while the remaining pods hit the table.

Do you know if he plans on tooling his squad upgrades to face you (i.e. flamers on the dreads, etc?) because if so, watch for those flamers.

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The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Take an ichor injector on the Talos for annoying AP2 ID...

Very good idea.  I forgot about the Ichor Injector on the Talos.  

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The Dark Artisans are probably a good bet against TWC. Even if your opponent has really gone to town on the TWC and given them all TH or PF you'll still have a 4+ FNP against any wounds you take. The +1 to WS and I in that formation will be of use too, as you'll be hitting first on 3+ every turn unless you charge into terrain.

Hmmm, so if I'm planning on trying to beat TWC at their own game, CC, would I be better off taking two Dark Artisans instead of one DA and one Grotesquerie?  The knock on the DA is that it is slow, but he will be coming right to me as fast his wolf legs can carry him.  On the way there, my Venoms and Warriors can whittle him down and my DA formations can finish him off(?)

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Alternatively to playing CC oriented, if you're playing a more kabalite heavy list just remember that TWC are really nothing more than 2-wound assault marines as far as a kabalite is concerned - only a lot more expensive.

I don't quite understand how your opponent plans on "pinning you in place" with drop pods.... the units can't assault the turn they arrive so let the 2 pods come down turn one, jink to hopefully survive the shooting, then turboboost across the field. Whatever he's podded in is now isolated far away from the main battle & you can focus on one squad of T-wolves at a time while the remaining pods hit the table.

I think my opponent meant "pin" in the sense that he would try to cripple my movement by taking out my paper boats during his alpha strike and if I turbo boosted away, i would be going towards his charging TWC squads.  Yes, he will probably be bringing flamers on his Dreadnaughts and in his Grey Hunter Drop Pod squads.

sweetbacon wrote:

I think my opponent meant "pin" in the sense that he would try to cripple my movement by taking out my paper boats during his alpha strike and if I turbo boosted away, i would be going towards his charging TWC squads.  Yes, he will probably be bringing flamers on his Dreadnaughts and in his Grey Hunter Drop Pod squads.

My regular Wolfy opponent has discovered this tactic and I haven't figured out a good counter to it yet, although in his case it's Terminators in Drop Pods:

Turn 1, two pods arrive, Terminators leap out.  Their objective is to flame my boats, kill the Kabalites inside and preferably shoot the boats themselves down with assault cannons and sundry combi-weapons.

If I survive this in a state where my whole army can still go flat out, I'm then zooming toward the other side of the table where his Razorbacks with Assault Cannons are waiting for me.  

Since I haven't survived this undamaged yet I'd have to leave any dismounted/immobilised units behind to be murdered by the Terminators, so I tend to go with Option Two, shoot the Terminators off the board.  This tends to work, but those Razorbacks are now in my face, having moved up 18" off their 12" start line in the first turn.

In addition, because the Wolves can choose one unit to arrive from reserves each turn, I then have a Stormwolf hunting my Ravagers.  Jinking may save the Ravagers, but then their shooting is hopeless, so I can't get the Wolves out of their transports, so I can't poison them to death...

It's making for some very difficult but still fun games.

Fauxmonculus wrote:

sweetbacon wrote:

I think my opponent meant "pin" in the sense that he would try to cripple my movement by taking out my paper boats during his alpha strike and if I turbo boosted away, i would be going towards his charging TWC squads.  Yes, he will probably be bringing flamers on his Dreadnaughts and in his Grey Hunter Drop Pod squads.

My regular Wolfy opponent has discovered this tactic and I haven't figured out a good counter to it yet, although in his case it's Terminators in Drop Pods:

Turn 1, two pods arrive, Terminators leap out.  Their objective is to flame my boats, kill the Kabalites inside and preferably shoot the boats themselves down with assault cannons and sundry combi-weapons.

If I survive this in a state where my whole army can still go flat out, I'm then zooming toward the other side of the table where his Razorbacks with Assault Cannons are waiting for me.  

Since I haven't survived this undamaged yet I'd have to leave any dismounted/immobilised units behind to be murdered by the Terminators, so I tend to go with Option Two, shoot the Terminators off the board.  This tends to work, but those Razorbacks are now in my face, having moved up 18" off their 12" start line in the first turn.

In addition, because the Wolves can choose one unit to arrive from reserves each turn, I then have a Stormwolf hunting my Ravagers.  Jinking may save the Ravagers, but then their shooting is hopeless, so I can't get the Wolves out of their transports, so I can't poison them to death...

It's making for some very difficult but still fun games.

Sounds like we are in a similar predicament.  One thing I've been toying with is a pseudo-null deployment where I only start maybe a Dark Artisan formation on the board in cover.  Very, very, VERY hard to kill with just one turn of shooting.  Another idea I've been kicking around is trying out the Corpsethief Claw AND the Dark Artisan formation in my 2000 point list.  Comes to just over 1000 points and leaves plenty of room for Venoms and Warrior squads.  The knock on the Talos is that it is slow.  But against Space Wolves, who are going to come to me anyways, that's not really a huge problem.  And I like the odds of six Taloi plus one Cronos (for that sweet 4+ FNP for all of the monsters) against TWC and/or anything else Space Wolves can throw at me.  My Space Wolves opponent expects me to spend the game running away from him.  He may get a nasty surprise when I run my MCs down his throat.

sweetbacon wrote:

Sounds like we are in a similar predicament.  One thing I've been toying with is a pseudo-null deployment where I only start maybe a Dark Artisan formation on the board in cover.  Very, very, VERY hard to kill with just one turn of shooting.  Another idea I've been kicking around is trying out the Corpsethief Claw AND the Dark Artisan formation in my 2000 point list.  Comes to just over 1000 points and leaves plenty of room for Venoms and Warrior squads.  The knock on the Talos is that it is slow.  But against Space Wolves, who are going to come to me anyways, that's not really a huge problem.  And I like the odds of six Taloi plus one Cronos (for that sweet 4+ FNP for all of the monsters) against TWC and/or anything else Space Wolves can throw at me.  My Space Wolves opponent expects me to spend the game running away from him.  He may get a nasty surprise when I run my MCs down his throat.

Now if I had six Taloi I'd be tempted to try the same thing! I wasn't much of a Coven player before the latest Codex so I can only make a Dark Artisan and a Scalpel Squadron.

I've used the Dark Artisan formation in my last couple of games. VERY tough (one wound on the Talos all game today) but mobility is a problem. I got them stuck in a ruin and due to bad rolls (even with move through cover) they didn't have much impact on the game. Plus my Talos couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his heat lance, but that's another story.

Let us know how you get on with the Taloi.

Did you use a WWP to deep strike them? From what I've read, the consensus seems to be they are best used as face smash/bullet magnet unit that diverts shooting away from the rest of your army and then mulches whatever they charge in CC. Maybe try dropping them in your opponent's deployment zone or starting them off on right on the far edge next time?

sweetbacon wrote:

Did you use a WWP to deep strike them?  From what I've read, the consensus seems to be they are best used as face smash/bullet magnet unit that diverts shooting away from the rest of your army and then mulches whatever they charge in CC.  Maybe try dropping them in your opponent's deployment zone or starting them off on right on the far edge next time?  

I have done previously, in this case I wanted them on the board on turn one to divert attention from my raiders and push the drop pods further away.

Good strategy. Sounds like you just got screwed by your move through cover rolls then. I still think that Dark Artisan is probably the best Covens formation.