A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

haha! Talos are certainly a force to respect especially supported by urien, grots, and a cronos!

Right. Soneone was asking de lists that we use: My list that I use atm in our etc training games.

archon, hb, sf, aom, venom
5 kabalite, bl, venom
5 kabalite, bl, venom
5 kabalite, bl, venom
5 kabalite, bl, venom
5 kabalite, bl, venom
6 reavers, 2bl, 2cc
6 reavers, 2bl, 2cC
Ravager, 3dl
Ravager, 3dl
Cronos, sp
Haemy
3 grots, raider
3 grots, raider
1850, two source.

So far it has performed well. Allthough I have not tried it Against flying necrons. Armor of misery is tau counter. And a good one. Cronos and grots secure midfield normally quite good so I try to bunch up some objectives there. I would like to get red of reavers but they are very good against invisibility.

I like that list it feels pretty standard in the "venom spam" category, but I like the refreshing use of reavers and grots for solid support. I hope the haemie and grots are from the grotesquerie...if not you're doing it wrong haha...its a free super solid bonus and PfP that blends well with what the grots need.

A challenge to my readers! Im really liking my 1500 pts list and while i still need to test it more im thinking of how to scale it to 1850 using what i have so far.

The units I have available:
succi/lelith
archon
5 mandrakes
7 wracks
20 warriors
2 raiders
30 wyches.... :/ (10 could be converted?)
9 reavers
10 hellions
razorwing
voidraven
beastpack (10 kym, 4 flocks)

The goal essentially is to cone up with a 350 point addin to my list (which you will find below). I'd be up to changing the scourges around too if you have issues with points and slots!

Quote :

Haemie (scissorhand, armor of misery)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (dual SC)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (dual SC)
5 Scourges (4 haywire blasters)
5 Scourges (4 haywire blasters)
Cronos (spirit probe)
2x Talos (SC, ichor injector)

Grotesquerie
Urien
4x Grots in a boat (dark lance)
4x Grots in a boat (dark lance)

I sort of wish I could use eldar alliea but Im maxed on detachments (2). Im not willing to take grots not from the grotesquerie...those bonuses are too solid to give up.

My first thoughts are more venoms and possibly reavers - too good now against invisible targets. Your problem comes with little or no AA. Of course, this is the bane of DE. I would likely add the Razorwing/Void Raven and some reavrers in the end.

I was just postulating in the tactics thread on what factors contribute to winning. I have no doubts that a well thought out list is the number one factor.

Of course tournament missions, luck and match ups are also quite important. If you build a good enough list you can win even with average skill.

The key of course us to come up with my addon is considering what I own (kit them however you want). That is the challenge! Essentially you have 350 pts plus play room with an additional 250 pts from the scourges should you wish to play around with that.

1500+250=1850?

Derp...multiple brain farts editted...haha thanks vas.

So I will throw up my first list expansion idea...here we go:

Upgrade both grot squads to have aberrations with scissorhands

10 warriors (SC) in boat with SR and lance
Razorwing with SC

that puts me square at 1850! Thoughts?


Im working on a for fun nids list to collect in the future, stay tuned!

So Ligs was asking how my Legio list fares against DelDar ... well ...

Killing Deldar I have 24" BOLT CANNONS to ID elves and reduce any cover saves they get. and at BS5, if they aren't in cover, I kill 9 a turn from shooting. If they are in cover, i reduce cover saves they get. I also have two flamers. Both castallax and thanatar will destroy vehicles in assault.

It takes 9 melta HITS (13.5 shots) to kill 1 castellax. More to kill a thanatar. Cybernetic resillience makes deldar more ignorable. (72 poision 4+ shots to kill 1). I also effectively have IWND(3+) on one model every turn because of battlesmith, so durability is not a problem.

I think I mentioned that the thanatar is IWND as well T8 with 4 wounds. All battle automata are poison resistant (reroll saves). So Along with my adescularis tech thralls that return on a 5+ when destroyed  and start fearless and some with FNP the list is quite durable. I will break down my 1500 current list project when time permits if there is interest ... lmk.

As it happens, i too ordered some forge world 30k stuff. Solar auxilia to be more precise but i don't know almost anything about them yet. Other than that they look cool. I like their steam punk apperance.

Perhaps se should erotat have a separate 30k trend somewhere? (Not a mod suggestion btw)

Here are a number of sites to check out ...

http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/
join this one

http://thetraitorshand.blogspot.ca/
follow this one

https://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/tag/warhammer-40k-tactica/
https://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/2013/02/28/horus-heresy-tactica-legion-contemptor-dreadnought/
https://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/horus-heresy-tactica-legion-terminator-squad-tactics/
https://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/2012/12/05/horus-heresy-tactica-legion-destroyer-squad-tactics/
https://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/horus-heresy-tactica-legion-veteran-tactical-squad/
https://pensacolawarhammer.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/horus-heresy-tactica-legion-centurion-tactics/
some nice general tactics here

EoE knows 30k pretty well also. You can always ask him questions on the units - he does not play though.

Now that aside. Why are people taking dark lance ravagers? Seriously  -  help out a poor duck. Do you think three dark lances are as good as scourges? As good as blasterborn? Or even as good as a talos? The only way you take a ravager (and it even then it is so-so) is with Dissies people. Really. Get a squad to bait something into open and then kill that unit with dissies. That works.

And this is what happens to my army if I fail a cybertheurgy roll ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaPaW9-BOs&feature=youtu.be

There is a hefty discussion already going on regarding that question elsewhere in the forums. I think it comes down to it being peoples tried and tested and the range that it brings with the lances that scourges simply don't have. Personally I think it depends on your list and general strategy. I use scourges because I've already used 2 HS slots with Talos and cronos. Second, I have used my 2nd detachment allowance (that most people follow for serious games) with the grotesquerie...thus I'm generally limited to scourges and beating face with grots and talos which suits me fine as its my preferred method. Dissie boats sound like a ton of fun though to try, even if its just one...best part is that its cheap and brings some much needed ap2 fire to the fight against heavy infantry and even light vehicles.

ligolski wrote:

Personally I think it depends on your list and general strategy.

I do not agree. I will qoute Unorthodox here

J wrote:

Okay so here's the thing about the Dark Lances:

1. You have one of the most potent weapons in your arsenal available on only two platforms. Whereas you have anti-tank ability loaded on a half dozen HIGHLY capable and at least as sturdy platforms: 10 Scourges are as good as two Ravaegrs and they do more things, Reaver Hammer of Wrath attacks mash hulls, Trueborn Blasters/Heat Lances tear them open, Pure Grotesque brute Strength can ruin most vehicles says in round 2, Void Raven Bombers, or the Fighters can both tear into armor and be protected from harm by a great many weapons by sheer probability, Sslyths and their buddies on the charge, so either dont HAVE the Ravagers or if you're set on them, let someone else handle the heavy lifting and let Ravagers drop kick infantry like no ones business. Don't use the only platforms that can take Dissintegrators with something else!

2. Disintegrator Ravagers are GREAT reserves. After the enemy has been somewhat overrun; and preccupied and after some of their transports have been blown is the optimal time to bring in Disintegrators. Enemy anti-tank ability and focus are lessened by this time.

3. Jinking with a Raider occupied by a Blaster gives you two snap shots, 3 with a Ravager. But a Ravager will never score. And if the Raider is killed you still have a lance. So really once those Ravagers start Jinking you're only losing one shot if you replace them in function with a Raider thats got a blaster inside!

One note on that set of comments: Jinking doesn't cause the passengers to shoot snap shots as far as I know. Ravagers do score with new rules as well...just not ObSec.

I missed that part Ligs but still the logic holds. I was referring to damage done by DLs as opposed to Dissies if you jink and clearly it is better with Dissies. You can still kill a few things with Dissies even when you jink but with DLs you are unlikely to hit at all.

New unit - free download from FW so no infringement here. Can be added to any age of darkness primary detachment  

Expeditionary Navigator
(WS2, BS2, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1, LD10, 6+)

Archeotech pistol (12", S6, AP3, Pistol Master-crafted) , CC Weapon, Refractor Field (5+ inv), Aetherblade Staff

IC, Fear, Navigator Powers

Aetherblade Staff - If DSing within 12", Navigator and unit may snapshot (as in interceptor). If they arrive by summoning use normal BS.

Navigator powers - Take LD test - if failed you are pinned. May be used if NOT in assault. One per phase.

Lidless Stare - Own shooting Phase - Template weapon, pass Initiative test or suffer ID with no armour saves.
Warp Prescience - Enemy shooting phase - shots at navigato's unit are -1BS
Aetheric Disruption - Start of turn - all psykers roll three dice and discard the lowest for Perils of the Warp results.

Just wow - look at those powers closely. I would so use this in any AM/IG list.

J is getting Necrons in trade -

Everyone should bookmark this - all the formations from the different codex are here --- whether your opponent is playing BA or De or Nids - get the rules. Know what to expect

http://bloodofkittens.com/formation-compendium/

Duckdrake's quick and dirty breakdown

So Unorthodox is getting a list with a C'Tan Shard and two monoliths - so lets look at both  units closely. He is also not getting any vehicles but lots of wraiths, scarabs, d-lords, destroyers.

It has dropped in price and Living Metal is not as good as it used to be and you have no jink like the ubiquitous A barges  but -
It can fire its weapons at six different targets a turn. It can deep strike. It can suck in dangerous units. It can fire when it lands ( albeit snapshots). It can teleport in any non-vehicle unit - hello Mr. C'Tan. Now pair it with some spiders with fabricator claws and they can hide behind it. It will last all game and have MCs to countercharge anything that gets close. So it is uses now as a moveable DSing fortification teleporting in any bhigh strength units you want into your opponents face - but take two and profit.

Now using this with spiders and a C'tan - you really do not have to DS the Monolith - just move six inches turn one - you are now 18" up the board. Then deploy C'tan 6" in front of the /monolith turn two - 24" up the table. Spyders follow making scarabs. Both the scarabs and Spyders can charge anything threatening the monoliths so arm them with fabricator claw and a shooting weapon.

You also have some Dlords, wraiths and destroyers that can flank while this is going on. Bring out the warriors and immortals after the C'Tan deploys. Now your opponent has numerous targets - you have lots of Los blocking Monolith preventing your opponent from reaching the softer targets.

Between the particle whips, gauss flux arcs, particle beam on spoilers and whatever you ; load the C'Tan up with you have a problem waiting to erupt on the opponent. This without the second monolith disgorging immortals and warriors.

Remember that the monolith is the cheapest AV14 vehicle in 40k.

now Unorthodox - you also have Sheid of Baal relics and formations ...

Conclave of the Burning One
Shield of Baal Extermintus

Requirements: 1 C'tan Shard, 2 Crypteks

Restrictions: None.

Special Rules:

Conclave: All units in this Formation must be fielded as a single unit, even though this is not normally allowed, and they cannot leave this unit. Models with the Independent Character special rule cannot join this unit. While the C’tan Shard is alive, the opposing player must always use the C’tan Shard’s Toughness when rolling To Wound models in this Formation.

Forbidden Knowledge: The C’tan Shard from this Formation has the Feel No Pain (5+) special rule. If one Cryptek has been removed as a casualty, the C’tan Shard instead has the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule. As soon as both Crypteks are removed as casualties, this rule no longer has any effect.

Source: Campaign: Shield of Baal: Exterminatus

The best relic is the God Shackle, which is given to a Cryptek only, at the cost of a Warscythe. The bearer nominates a friendly C'Tan Shard in the army before deployment, which gains a point of Strength and Toughness while the Cryptek lives.

I think the various combos become obvious here. We can either gate the C'Tan or both use the Monolith and gate the C'Tan around. God shackles will give the unit an extra point of toiughness - not necessary but nice. In a formation like this tyou can go shooty or cc or a mix - lots of decent harbingers to choose from. You are looking at 400+ points though.

The other interesting formation is from white dwarf it is a Mephrit Dynasty Recursion Decurion:

Requirements: 2 Necron Warriors Units, 2 Immortals Units, 1 Monolith

Restrictions: None.

Special Rules:

Locus of Resurrection: At the start of each friendly Movement phase, this Formation’s Monolith can repair fallen models from the Formation. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Necron Warriors or Immortals from this Formation that is within 6” of this Formation’s Monolith. If the nominated unit is a unit of Necron Warriors, roll a D6; if the nominated unit is a unit of Immortals, roll a D3. Add a number of models to the unit equal to the result – this cannot take the unit beyond its starting size. These models must be placed within 6” of the Monolith. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it is destroyed. Necron models repaired in this manner can move and act normally this turn.

Interesting as well but no Obsec troops here - I myself like the ObSec.

Wow, okay thank you very much for all the work you did on writing that.

Couple things:

The lot I'm getting has FOUR Monoliths. So that screams to me "Multiple Detachments"

That Mephrit Dynasty Recursion Decurion sounds like it makes the Monoliths into Arks, essentially, but requires a heavy commitment to the basic dudes. I personally have no problem with committing to that because the list I am getting has 48 Warriors I think. the lack of objective Secured does hurt, but imagine with 4 such Detachments... That's 8 Immortal and 8 Warrior Units. Minimum of 40 each.

800 points in Monoliths, 520 points in Warriors and 680 points in Immortals. 2K on the nose.

Of course I only have what looks like 10 Immortals in this lot I'm getting which is a problem, somewhat. But that aside, it's an interesting notion. 80 shots of Gauss is approximately 9 Glances. That is not a small number (this assumes no Cover saves, which is certainly no guarantee, but on the other hand many things that Jink can be harmed with all the shots, not just Gauss, so this number could be far greater or far less depending). Think about that. That's all the 3 heavy supports or troop transports in some lists. And once the cans are popped, that's 4 of the STR 8 AP 3 Large Blasts incoming from Monoliths on the exposed troops potentially, plus it's other weapons; and as long as those doors are operational on the Monolith, many of the best units to deep Strike might be quite loathe to venture too close to those things in order to stop its carnage? Would this be a good way to zap a Centurion Star?

It's a themed army for sure and I suspect it could have cataclysmic bad days against things that are heavy on the Haywire or other such tools. On the other hand it really doesn't matter whose facing you, 4 AV 14 hulls is a LOAD.

As for the Conclave of the Burning One:

Do you choose a C'Tan in the army... or in the formation for that upgrade ability from the Crypteks? I have two C'Tan Shards. One that is coming and one I already owned (unless i traded it away at some point which I wouldnt rule out, but my memory isn't recalling such a trade).

In any event, this opens up a discussion for sure for me. I am now even more eager to try new things out.

One thing I could do is put the Conclave of the Burning One Formation in an army. Add Mephrit Dynasty Recursion Decurion with a large unit of Warriors. Then add a CAD that includes 3 Monoliths and has the guys running along behind all four, and hide the Conclave until they can get there.

It's an interesting idea.

People are taking dark lance ravagers purely because they add 3 more dark light weapons, if you are using blaster born and blaster scourge,even heat lance to a degree, as your main anti tank you need to spam them hard to get enough shots to be useful so you look to find any more you can grab and ravagers are as good as they have always been at shooting tanks they are just less mobile.

We all know lance weapons aren't exactly reliable so people who aren't including talos or grotesques(who have to get close to be useful which is a downside early game) just need more shots.

Here is the thing. I see a lot of mech rarely - only when playing against DE or Eldar -
Wave Serpents are not afraid of a few Dark Lances
DE boats can be taken out easily with anything

What I do see are flyers, MCs, FMCs and artillery. Against these units I don't see ravagers as being all that useful.

Servants aren't afraid of a few lances but they worry a little about a LOT of lances... They worry more about a lot of assault cannons but who doesn't?

A lot of lances rapidly...I mean RAPIDLY...turn into very few lances when loaded on boats if the enemy is in fact armoured. And they can kill IT a lot faster than the lance can kill them.

My Coven list is effectively forced to take them because it HAS no other option. But outside of that? I really think you're wasting your time on Lance Ravagers COMPARATIVELY.

But I have said all I can or wish to on the subject honestly. If its a matter of the models you own, fine, I get it. No problem. But if you have the means to do other than Lance Ravagers I strongly recommend making that happen.

Honestly I don't see an issue adding a couple when you have filled out on blaster born and scourge/reavers and still finding that you need more to deal with those 10+ necron vehicles

But yes they aren't the most cost effective option but they are cheaper than the voidraven although I'm not sure on what is better I haven't and can't really be asked to do the math.

I am sorry I ever brought the subject up, lol.

Haha.

I have a quick question. Can I declare to jink when I'm taking overwatch Fire?
Also if I can't can I still take the jink save from overwatch if I jinked in my opponents last turn?