A TDC Blog: strategies , unit analysis, batreps, observations, tactics

You can jink overwatch, yes.


This is why I would not play ravagers:  

HQ: 155
Autarch, Fusion Gun  
Lhamaean
Venom, Dual Splinter Cannon

Elite: 240
1x 5 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent, Scatterlaser, Ghost Walk Mantle – 240

Troops; 750
3x 5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannon
2x 5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent, Scatterlaser, Ghost Walk Mantle

FA: 460
2x  Razorwing Jetfighters, Dark Lances 140
1x Crimson Hunter Exarch, Dual Lance160

Heavy: 240
1x Wraithknight

Yes it feels dirty indeed. But you cannot say it does have all the answers to a standard DE list's weaknesses.

Now I discussed ravagers - a pet peeve of mine. Here is another pet peeve of mine. I like to very few upgrades, relics, etc. The list above has ghost walk mantles I know. And the Crimson Hunter is an exarch. But I really like to keep the necessaries to a minimum cost. I need to see a strong use for something to add it. Now this is probably a whole conversation on its own. But I manage to get both HQs and venom for a pretty low cost. I could have put a farseer in there for some psychics but an autarch is cheaper and has needed reserve manipulation. After turn two he is fully disposable.

We can argue that Eldar dilutes DE - we can argue the fluff. But we cannot argue the effectiveness of the added Eldar. I get that some DE players just do not want allies. But this is the era of formations, detachments, dual CADs and allies. Why handicap yourself?

A bonus list since I've been getting a lot of questions on mechanicus. We have one player that is undefeated at our LGS with his mechanicus list.

HQ 220
2x Magos Dominus
(WS4, BS4, S4,T4 W2, I3, A2, LD9, 3+)
Power weapon, Lap pistol, Cortex Controller, Refractor Field(5+ inv), Battlesmith(5+ repair HP, repair weapon destroyed,repair immobilized), Cybertheurgy, Cyber Familiar ( +1 to inv save, reroll dangerous terrain) , Abeyant(+1 wound, move through cover, hardened armour, IWND), Warlord with mechanica protectiva (4++)

Troops: 1130
2x 4 Castallax
(WS3, BS4, S6, T7, W4, I3, A2, Ld7, 3+)
Monstrous Creature, Mauler Pattern Bolt Cannon(24", s6, AP3, heavy 3, pinning), Shock Chargers(concussive), Atomantic Shielding (5++ at range 6++ in CC), Cybernetica Cortex( (programmed behaviour, fearless, cybernetic resistance, adamantium will) cybernetic resistance - (re-roll poison and fleshbane successful wounds) , Reactor Blast (roll a D6 on automata's last wound - on a 6 all models within D6 take S4 hit), Rage

3x 3 Thallax - Multi-melta
(WS3, BS4, S5, T5, W3, I2,A2, Ld8, 4+)
Jetpack Infanry, Lorica Thallax(FNP 6+), CCW, Frag, Bulky, Stubborn, Djinn-sight (no infiltrators within 24", reduce cover saves by 2), two Lightning Guns(18", s7, rending/shred), one Multi-melta

FA: 150
Avenger Strike Fighter
(BS: 3, Front: 12, Side: 10, Rear: 10, HP:3)
Vehicle, Flyer, Strafing Run, Deep Strike, Supersonic, One hull-mounted Avenger Bolt Cannon (36", STR: 6, AP: 3, Type: Heavy 7), Two wing-mounted lascannons, Armoured cockpit, Defensive Heavy Stubber (36", STR: 4, AP: 6, Type: Heavy 3, Skyfire)

You will notice I did not discuss cybertheurgy which comes with inherent risks and perils. If the player chooses to use it you can give the Castallax +2 Initiative, IWND, +D3 attacks, fire twice instead on once, self destruct with damage, etc. These are used on occasion only as a mishap can have some serious consequences. But if you need one to win the game well worth the risk. Note Magos are NOT psykers.

If you look closely you will see the premise of the list. You have eight MCs marching forward covering your HQs. You have three units of jet pack infantry troops to grab objectives. You have a decent flyer.

It feels a bit like Tau with broadsides and crisis suits. Were I starting a list this would be a consideration if I wanted to go waac as possible - and really it is still beatable although at our LGS it has woin about ten straight games since it was ut together by my pal.

It takes more skill to run this list than immediately apparant, btw. Someone who knows mechanicus can do some damage with it. Much like Unorthodox's Tau which seem beatable the list surprises you as the game progresses and find that your opponent still has a lot of models on the table. When all your troops have three or four wounds and are tough and cannot be IDed well ...

Finally I had a request for a Night Lords starter 30k list ... This is RoW teror doctrine

1 Praetor 195 pts.
- Paragon blade,  Digital laser, Iron halo, Meltabombs, Jump Pack, Trophies of Judgement

3x 10 Terror Squad 795 pts.
10x Volkite charger  Sergeant Artificer Armour Meltabombs

11 Night Raptor 315 pts.
- 2x Melta  + Sergeant Artificer Armour  Meltabombs

2x 1 Javelin Attack Speeder 190 pts.
- TL Cyclone Missile Launcher, Multimelta, 2x Hunter Killer Missiles

1500 pts.

Volkite charger - Range: 15", STR: 5, AP: 5, Type: Assualt 2, Deflagrate - Any unsaved wounds caused to a unit by these weapons causes the same amount of additional wounds to be caused to the unit (these additional wounds are treated as normal wounds and do not inflict further wounds).
So en masse these weapons are sick. Trust me.

Now building up - vindicator - spartan - kheres contemptor - whirlwhind scorpius  - all dedent choices.

My Mandatory response from Duck.

Only thing I can think of that could be a problem is maybe moving the troops around fast enough on the battlefield. But I don't know how 30k plays out.

Dropping a few terror troops for pods is a possibility but 30k is a slow game - footslogging is encouraged especially at lower level point games.

I like troops what about the speeders they needed?

The Javelin Speeder stats: BS4 AV 11 11 10 HP 2
deepstrike, outflank, relic of the armoury
costs the same as a landspeeder typhoon stock

It comes with HB and Cyclone missile launcher, which is considered twinlinked. It can take lascannons, get a Heavy Flamer, mulitmelta, a searchlight and up two HK missiles.

Are they needed? Not necessary. You have other options that are good

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/j/Relic_Javelin.pdf

ligolski wrote:

A challenge to my readers! Im really liking my 1500 pts list and while i still need to test it more im thinking of how to scale it to 1850 using what i have so far.

The units I have available:
succi/lelith
archon
5 mandrakes
7 wracks
20 warriors
2 raiders
30 wyches.... :/ (10 could be converted?)
9 reavers
10 hellions
razorwing
voidraven
beastpack (10 kym, 4 flocks)

The goal essentially is to cone up with a 350 point addin to my list (which you will find below). I'd be up to changing the scourges around too if you have issues with points and slots!

Quote :

Haemie (scissorhand, armor of misery)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (dual SC)
5 warriors (blaster) in venom (dual SC)
5 Scourges (4 haywire blasters)
5 Scourges (4 haywire blasters)
Cronos (spirit probe)
2x Talos (SC, ichor injector)

Grotesquerie
Urien
4x Grots in a boat (dark lance)
4x Grots in a boat (dark lance)

I sort of wish I could use eldar alliea but Im maxed on detachments (2). Im not willing to take grots not from the grotesquerie...those bonuses are too solid to give up.

Okasy I have determined that in the meta there are two reasons I would makwe these changes. FIRST is that if your meta in particular sees few flyers, that means it also sees RELATIVELY few answers to flyers. Relatively. On the other hand, in a flyer rich environment or just FMC's, you are absoluterly going to be crushed as Dark Eldar without an answer or magniuficant timing and tactics that border on perfect. Not a high percentage play for sure.

So my suggestion IS:

225pts VoidRaven Bomber (Night Shield, 2 Shatterfield, 2 Implosion)

145pts Razorwing (Night Shields)

Now this breaks your rule so I will just say that at 1850, drop the Ichor Injectors and you should be golden? They seem nice but ultimately I'd rather have the flyers than the off chance the Ichor Injector provides.

That's an ok rule to break in this case

I like the addition...I wish I had more troops and poison...BUT this does give me some nice missiles to play with upon entering the board...PLUS the bomb which you never know may kill something nice. I like the addition and am pleased you left the razorwing fairly un-upgraded...I like it with dissies and not lances. I'll give it a shot...the nice part is that those models are already painted and ready to go!

My follow up question of course, is how would you take all of that to 2000 pts with the same restrictions? Essentially 150 pts to play with if you want to keep the flyers...perhaps a boat with 10 warriors with SC and the lance on the boat?

No. the VERY next points you need to add to this is Agonizers on Grotesque Aberrations. The extra attack and the re-rollable wounds (higher STR with a poisoned weapon) coupled with Uriens "Latest Experiment" possibilities? Too good to pass up. Add em right away.

The second change since I know you own one is to add the extra Grotesque to one of the units and make it 5. I'm sorry but those things are just awesome. the more the better. Now that means that the leadrs will share a boat and then disperse to their units later but thats just fine.

That right there eats up 35+35+35 = 105 points, leaving just 45 points.

I think the Scourges are really good and an added Scourge per unit would in no way be a waste. they shoot well against infantry and vehicles, as a unit, and an extra birdman in each is what, 32? that leaves you with enough points to upgrade the haemonculus and make him a little more dangerous. I know you don't like the Liquifier but as an overwatch measure as well as for a small bit of debris clearing ability to make the path clear for your Grotesques, hard to go wrong. What sometimes happens is they will drop their guys out of the transports to guard them from getting bashed in by the Grotesques. So The Haemonculus can help clear some of them out of the way to make the charge/multicharge possible. You only need to kill one or two a lot of the time to make those charges go from impossible to possible. Consider it.

5 grots is a problematic because quite often you need a high ld character to accomppany them to avoid ld spells and raiders only got 10 slots. Even though Abe has 33% higher ld than regular grot thats not enough.

So EoE is busy painting up my Legio Cybernetica list. AS DelDar - how do you beat me? Give me your best shots.

HQ: Arch Magos Dominus - 175
-Mechanica Protectiva, Machinator Array, Abeyant, Cyber-familiar

TR: Legio Cybernetica Castellax Class Battle-Automata (1) - 130
-Darkfire Cannon, 2x Flamers, Enhanced Targeting Array

TR: Legio Cybernetica Castellax Class Battle-Automata (2) - 220
-Mauler Pattern Bolt Cannon, 2x Flamers, Enhanced Targeting Array



TR: Mechanicum Thallax Cohort (3) - 150
-2x Lightning guns, 1x Multi-melta

FA: Imperial Avenger Strike Fighter (1) - 175
- Chaff Launchers, Battlem Servitor Control, 2x Wing Mounted Lascannons, Avenger Bolt Cannon

LoW: Questoris Knight Errant

I almost feel dirty fielding four MCs and an IK at 1500 ... it will be tough on 40k lists .. but meh .. some people field three IKs.

Unorthodoxy wrote:

No.  the VERY next points you need to add to this is Agonizers on Grotesque Aberrations.  The extra attack and the re-rollable wounds (higher STR with a poisoned weapon) coupled with Uriens "Latest Experiment" possibilities?  Too good to pass up.  Add em right away.

The second change since I know you own one is to add the extra Grotesque to one of the units and make it 5.  I'm sorry but those things are just awesome.  the more the better.  Now that means that the leadrs will share a boat and then disperse to their units later but thats just fine.

That right there eats up 35+35+35 = 105 points, leaving just 45 points.  

I think the Scourges are really good and an added Scourge per unit would in no way be a waste.  they shoot well against infantry and vehicles, as a unit, and an extra birdman in each is what, 32?  that leaves you with enough points to upgrade the haemonculus and make him a little more dangerous.  I know you don't like the Liquifier but as an overwatch measure as well as for a small bit of debris clearing ability to make the path clear for your Grotesques, hard to go wrong.  What sometimes happens is they will drop their guys out of the transports to guard them from getting bashed in by the Grotesques.  So The Haemonculus can help clear some of them out of the way to make the charge/multicharge possible.  You only need to kill one or two a lot of the time to make those charges go from impossible to possible.  Consider it.

I think upgrading to aberations is certainly worth it, but I'd argue that scissorhands would be better as it adds AP2 and the chance to mess up tanks more...plus it is less pricey points wise. Plus grots already have poison weapons so they get the reroll as it is. The always on AP3 would be nice, but that would depend on what else you would want to slot in. I agree with Vas on the extra grot, I need that T1 fearless just in case...not too mention it doesn't leave all my eggs in one basket...literally. Don't forget that grots will love getting to the later turns for the bonuses and the haemies give that +1 turn...which I'd like both squads to have.

I'm still thinking I could benefit from another small unit once you take those upgrades into effect...maybe a small harassing reaver squad? (Also I don't own any more scourges)

ligolski wrote:

Unorthodoxy wrote:

No.  the VERY next points you need to add to this is Agonizers on Grotesque Aberrations.  The extra attack and the re-rollable wounds (higher STR with a poisoned weapon) coupled with Uriens "Latest Experiment" possibilities?  Too good to pass up.  Add em right away.

The second change since I know you own one is to add the extra Grotesque to one of the units and make it 5.  I'm sorry but those things are just awesome.  the more the better.  Now that means that the leadrs will share a boat and then disperse to their units later but thats just fine.

That right there eats up 35+35+35 = 105 points, leaving just 45 points.  

I think the Scourges are really good and an added Scourge per unit would in no way be a waste.  they shoot well against infantry and vehicles, as a unit, and an extra birdman in each is what, 32?  that leaves you with enough points to upgrade the haemonculus and make him a little more dangerous.  I know you don't like the Liquifier but as an overwatch measure as well as for a small bit of debris clearing ability to make the path clear for your Grotesques, hard to go wrong.  What sometimes happens is they will drop their guys out of the transports to guard them from getting bashed in by the Grotesques.  So The Haemonculus can help clear some of them out of the way to make the charge/multicharge possible.  You only need to kill one or two a lot of the time to make those charges go from impossible to possible.  Consider it.

I think upgrading to aberations is certainly worth it, but I'd argue that scissorhands would be better as it adds AP2 and the chance to mess up tanks more...plus it is less pricey points wise. Plus grots already have poison weapons so they get the reroll as it is. The always on AP3 would be nice, but that would depend on what else you would want to slot in. I agree with Vas on the extra grot, I need that T1 fearless just in case...not too mention it doesn't leave all my eggs in one basket...literally. Don't forget that grots will love getting to the later turns for the bonuses and the haemies give that +1 turn...which I'd like both squads to have.

I'm still thinking I could benefit from another small unit once you take those upgrades into effect...maybe a small harassing reaver squad? (Also I don't own any more scourges)

I do like scissorhands in the coven only list because there's next to no anti-tank in it but you have anti tank covered. the buzzsaw of 5 STR 5 Poisoned Power attacks on the charge is pretty awesome, and once zealot kicks in its just outstanding. Getting bogged down too long in enemy units is a REAL threat as I learned in a game where my Dice went to ice for five combat phases. Consider it.

As for the first turn, its way over rated. But you can join the units in round 2 anyways.

But that's up to you so I have said what I would do. The threat of 2+ armor is real and you're not wrong to think about that but the Dark eldar army you have HAS ap2, unlike my coven list. Let them do THEIR jobs and let the Grotesques do THEIR jobs.

Here is the thing. I've only played my mechanicus a short time. But I think you need to have the right attitude playing them. You can indeed use Castallax - a unit of five will dominate the center of the table. But you don't have to use them. Adescularis for ObSec with revenant and rite and thallax for anti-armour work as well. There are a few 'almost' givens in a mechanicus list and there are a few very potent combos. Your opponents will hate the venators and thanatars if you hide them and use djinn-skein on a magos so you do not require line of sight. But generally anything in my list is quite killable.

I actually stopped thinking about what is the 'optimal' list. I am now more concerned with the best build for a particular unit as mechanicus has its own style that does not conform to '40k theory' of flyers and mech. In 30k the games tend to unfold quite differently and honestly I rarely see an opponent who is not out to just have a fun match. I  focus less on what is perceived to be a winning list and more on units that I enjoy playing and then learn the best ways of deploying and moving them about. This is how you get better. You use units that do not play themselves.

Now, I'm new to 30k ( just a handful of games under my belt) but I'm a pretty experienced 40k player. The move to 30k is I think the best choice I've made since I started playing warhammer. It has reljuvenated my desire to just go out and have fun and not worry too much about the army I am fielding. I concern myself more with just playing a tactically sound game and seeing how the game unfolds. Winning is nice but power building lists with OP units and combos have not added to my enjoyment of the game. So I've gone back to my roots - when I played feral orks and kroot mercenaries, lol.

So what do you guys think? Are you caught up in the competitive as possible mode or do you also just want to go out and have a pleasant afternoon of a more relaxed gaming atmosphere? I'm no longer tolerant of 'rules lawyers', waac players and general nonsense invisible deathstars. Don't get me wrong. I am happy to play against a well formulated list  - but be nice when playing it please and don't go out every month and buy the latest OP FW model.

So you have read this far and are asking yourself - what is this self-indulgent crap Duck is spewing. Here is the thing. I've brought a lot of OP combos and list to this thread and discussed them. From now on DO NOT expect me to post the latest broken builds. I will discuss discuss tactics - I will discuss particular units from the regular codex. But I no longer will posting the latest and most broken finds I have uncovered in a supplement, formation or detachment or FW unit. NO MORE BROKEN COMBOS here. Just fun gaming.

So that's it. This is where I am today.

Here here! I'm all for less shenanigans. I tend to lean away from such things, especially in me DE (I don't spam ravagers and venoms). I can play my marines pretty dirty if I wish (though my cent star was something i foresaw long long ago when the book originally came out with the FW dataslates first put down for the other chapters. I will continue towards that path, but I still play my marines fairly different from most (tactical spam haha). Once these armies are finished being painted, I am moving to my "mechanicus" list (IG+IKs) and Nids (monster mash here I come!). I generally try to do things a little different as well and will continue to do so as best I can!

I'm looking forward to looking at Necrons soon!

Deja vu from 30k forum!

Thats sort of double post Duck

-are you tracking the duck all over the web Vas -

I posted the same thoughts there on a different topic and that is what got me thinking about it. So I expanded my observations here. In fact I got three PMs on the 30k forum saying that yes, there is a mentality in both 40k and 30k and they are generally not the same. In 30k the rules even limit your access to the big LoWs ( none before 2000+ points and maximum 25% of your list).

Of course 30k does have their own unique IK list. And yes there are some units that you can port between mechanicus and legion. But there are not a slew of extra formations and detachments. Most of the guys I have seen use a single legion list or just a Taghmata list until you get to 2500+ range where honestly you want to see those big LoWs face off against one another.

That said lets discuss tactics. Here is the topic -

Min/max

Well we know why DE do it. Cheap shooty spam units with ObSec. We know why Nids/Daemons do it - to get five Flyrants or lots of FMCs and use those cheap nurglings or ripper swarms ( now that swarms actually score). Well we know why people spam. It is just done everywhere from seven wave serpent lists to necron scythe and ani barge spam.

Is this the way you want tp play 40k? Is this how you construct your lists? I know a list can be built using no more than one of each unit in a codex and still be relatively strong - although two of the same unit is fine with me as some codex have limited troop options.

Honestly I find min max lists boring to play. Some codex have so much variety it seems a shame not to experiment with different configurations. It seems just one more example of being to caught up with the 'competitive' hype of the internet lists and taking the advice of waac gamers on forums. Am I wrong? Is my perspective warped?

Thoughts?

egorey wrote:

State of the Game Address

Here is the thing. I've only played my mechanicus a short time. But I think you need to have the right attitude playing them. You can indeed use Castallax - a unit of five will dominate the center of the table. But you don't have to use them. Adescularis for ObSec with revenant and rite and thallax for anti-armour work as well. There are a few 'almost' givens in a mechanicus list and there are a few very potent combos. Your opponents will hate the venators and thanatars if you hide them and use djinn-skein on a magos so you do not require line of sight. But generally anything in my list is quite killable.

I actually stopped thinking about what is the 'optimal' list. I am now more concerned with the best build for a particular unit as mechanicus has its own style that does not conform to '40k theory' of flyers and mech. In 30k the games tend to unfold quite differently and honestly I rarely see an opponent who is not out to just have a fun match. I  focus less on what is perceived to be a winning list and more on units that I enjoy playing and then learn the best ways of deploying and moving them about. This is how you get better. You use units that do not play themselves.

Now, I'm new to 30k ( just a handful of games under my belt) but I'm a pretty experienced 40k player. The move to 30k is I think the best choice I've made since I started playing warhammer. It has reljuvenated my desire to just go out and have fun and not worry too much about the army I am fielding. I concern myself more with just playing a tactically sound game and seeing how the game unfolds. Winning is nice but power building lists with OP units and combos have not added to my enjoyment of the game. So I've gone back to my roots - when I played feral orks and kroot mercenaries, lol.

So what do you guys think? Are you caught up in the competitive as possible mode or do you also just want to go out and have a pleasant afternoon of a more relaxed gaming atmosphere? I'm no longer tolerant of 'rules lawyers', waac players and general nonsense invisible deathstars. Don't get me wrong. I am happy to play against a well formulated list  - but be nice when playing it please and don't go out every month and buy the latest OP FW model.

So you have read this far and are asking yourself - what is this self-indulgent crap Duck is spewing. Here is the thing. I've brought a lot of OP combos and list to this thread and discussed them. From now on DO NOT expect me to post the latest broken builds. I will discuss discuss tactics - I will discuss particular units from the regular codex. But I no longer will posting the latest and most broken finds I have uncovered in a supplement, formation or detachment or FW unit. NO MORE BROKEN COMBOS here. Just fun gaming.

So that's it. This is where I am today.

Well said DuckofDeath.  The reality of any war game is that there are best practices.  Those are fundamental truths that individually never sound like much, but in totality are the foundation of sustained success in any wargame.  The "sense" for the game, and the nuances of preparaion, of timing, of baiting, of limiting the enemes options or expanding your own are all parts of the game that get far less attention than the actual list bing used to do it.  

It's understandable.  A PURCHASING DECISION is being made when you play the game and money IS NOT unlimited so it is a very fair question to ask:  what should I own to allow me to play and be competitive.  I find no fault in the question.  The real trouble starts when you catch the fever.  The fever is when you simply cant stand the thought of losing.  You no longer desire to win.  You want to absolutely positively hedge yourself against all losses and you start to build monstrosities that aren't really a list, just a win button.  You're no longer seeking to learn the game, nor  to entertain your friend across from you.  You're no longer there for that.  When you get the fever, that visceral hate for losing, you know you're in trouble.

I'm highly competitive and everyone that knows me, knows that.  I don't feel ashamed to be.  But I've never gotten the fever.  Losing isn't as hard a thing for me as it is for some of those I see with the fever.

So I applaud your addres.  While I don't think I will avoid discussion on lists at all, I think that a greater focus on the GAME PLAY itself is always a welcome thing.  I don't post as often as some on my blog because I dont tend to lean towards purely list building posts.  I suppose I'd say more if I did.  And so Duck you may post less as your subject matter becoms more succinct.  But there will be substance to it and thats a worthy goal.

ligolski wrote:

Here here! I'm all for less shenanigans. I tend to lean away from such things, especially in me DE (I don't spam ravagers and venoms). I can play my marines pretty dirty if I wish (though my cent star was something i foresaw long long ago when the book originally came out with the FW dataslates first put down for the other chapters. I will continue towards that path, but I still play my marines fairly different from most (tactical spam haha). Once these armies are finished being painted, I am moving to my "mechanicus" list (IG+IKs) and Nids (monster mash here I come!). I generally try to do things a little different as well and will continue to do so as best I can!

I'm looking forward to looking at Necrons soon!

The necrons have some crazy cool and weird stuff coming. The C'Tans look like something an ork player would love.

ligolski wrote:

Here here! I'm all for less shenanigans. ... I will continue towards that path, but I still play my marines fairly different from most (tactical spam haha). Once these armies are finished being painted, I am moving to my "mechanicus" list ... (monster mash here I come!). !

you know if you want monster mash DelDar are now prime candidates.

Imagine an Avatar ... some windrider bikes as troops, two or three WKs and then just add the corpsethief claw formation. You can easily get nine MCs worked into a list. The tactics would be pretty straightforward ... You control the center with your DE formation while rushing up the big MCs in support. This will likely cause a few headaches for a number of lists.

On the subject of the DE 'Monster Mash' I'm looking at trying it out in one of my next games - hopefully soon - the plan is pure Dark Eldar with a Corpsethief Claw and a Dark Artisan formation. I'll need to add something more to it rather than just adding just to the existing, though if I work out that I can do 1000pts with just those two units it'd be amusing, though potentially over rather quickly, we shall have to see.

Monster mash lists are fun. The Dark Circus was the theme of my Dark Eldar when I got them and it was the Coven-like stuff that most arrested my attention so of course I was pretty tickled to see a Coven book.

So we were discussing how to build the best escape hatch bastion list. I chose CSM because they seem to be the lost puppy these days. Never seen in the top ten at major events, CSM can still rock a few good units.

Primary Detachment (Crimson Slaughter)

HQ: 590
Daemon Prince , MoT,  Armour, Wings, Black Mace, Lvl 3
Abaddon

Troops: 595
10 Chosen, MoT, 4 Plasma Guns, Flamer, Champion, Power Axe, Gift of Mutation
Draznicht's Ravagers, 5 Chosen MoT, 4 Meltaguns, Combi-melta, Dreadclaw

Fast Attack: 345
3x Hell Blade, Helstorm Autocannons

Heavy Support: 200
2x Predator, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade

Fortifiation: 120
Bastion Comms Relay, Escape Hatch

So the ten chosen start in the bastion. They come out to threaten when needed to back up the DP and Abaddon. The Hell Blades have Heavy 3 rending autocannons. The dreadclaw comes on turn one and then becomes a scoring skimmer after dropping its load. It is vert troop light but it can put the hurt on. Abaddon is just a beast ...

Now if you hate FW the Hell Blades can be a couple of hell turkeys and the dreadclaw can be a drop pod. This leaves you extra points to slip in a few cultists from reserves.

So nothing really OP here. Just a nice list using the hatch.

So now ... POST ... yes POST ... your best escape hatch list.

well I can say that Chaos Marines HAVE been to the top ten a couple times recently. Sadly there were only 16 players. Lol.

all jaded comments aside, I dont know what a Hell Blade is, which means its forge world. So I cant really comment on THIS list.

But as for jetting units upstrem without the expedient of a vehicle, I'd say that the best units fr this duty are tough ones. Couldn't Nurgle Chaos terminators be a good candidate for this? Nurgleators come immediately to mind also.