Looking for help against necrons

Could anyone give me some advice about how to deal with this necron list:

it changes a little, but roughly it's:

Necron Dynasty Detachment (his troops can reroll RP rolls of 1)
- Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, MSS, Warscythe, 2+ Save, Res Orb
- Overlord w/ Warscythe, MSS, Possibly orb
- 10 Deathmarks in nightscythe
- 10 Immortals in nightscythe
- 5 Warriors in Ghost Ark
- 5 Warriors in Ghost Ark
- Annihilation Barge
- Something else - maybe a monolith, maybe a Triarch stalker, maybe something else.

The Destroyer lord accompanies the Deathmarks, whilst the Overlord goes with the Immortals.


This is the list I'm using at the moment:

Grotesquerie:
- 4 Grotesques inc. Aberration w/ Scissorhands, Raider w/ Disintegrator, Enhanced Aethersails
- 4 Grotesques inc. Aberration w/ Scissorhands, Raider w/ Disintegrator, Enhanced Aethersails
- Haemonculus w/ Sindriq's Sump, Scissorhands (Warlord)
CAD:
- Succubus w/ Glaive, Helm of Spite, Haywire Grenades
- 5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Warriors w/ Blaster, Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
- 5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire Blaster
- Ravager w/ 3x Dark Lance


Basically, I just find his list incredibly hard to deal with - everything on the field is a vehicle, most of his infantry are protected by MSS and his Night Scythes can cripple anything in my army (even after jinking) whilst being virtually immune to return fire.

Any advice on fighting this list would be appreciated.

What mission are you playing? Mael or Eternal?

I did a batrep against a list alot like your opponent a week ago link

The problem that you have here is that, despite fielding 10 blasters, 3 lances and 4 haywire blasters, all that firepower put together will just about take out a single jinking Annihilation Barge! Quite simply, you don't have enough firepower to crack his vehicles open early and get to his infantry. It's generally going to take you until at least turn 3 to get your Grots into assault (turn one to position, turn two to deal with transport, turn 3 assault) his Immortals and Deathmarks appear and shoot you off the board.

I'm really not sure that a Grotesquerie is the right option here. The Dark Artisan can survive a RIDICULOUS amount of Necron shooting. With 3+ save vs pretty much everything, 4+ FNP (rerolling 1's) you should easily survive long enough to get into combat and they also act as a huge fire magnet, leaving the rest of your army relatively intact.

Vasara wrote:

What mission are you playing? Mael or Eternal?

We usually just roll a dice on it.

Count Adhemar wrote:

The problem that you have here is that, despite fielding 10 blasters, 3 lances and 4 haywire blasters, all that firepower put together will just about take out a single jinking Annihilation Barge! Quite simply, you don't have enough firepower to crack his vehicles open early and get to his infantry. It's generally going to take you until at least turn 3 to get your Grots into assault (turn one to position, turn two to deal with transport, turn 3 assault) his Immortals and Deathmarks appear and shoot you off the board.

I'm really not sure that a Grotesquerie is the right option here. The Dark Artisan can survive a RIDICULOUS amount of Necron shooting. With 3+ save vs pretty much everything, 4+ FNP (rerolling 1's) you should easily survive long enough to get into combat and they also act as a huge fire magnet, leaving the rest of your army relatively intact.

So, there's really nothing I can do without list-tailoring?

That's... depressing.


EDIT: Also, with regard to the DA, what about the Deathmarks? On average, they'll kill either the Talos or Chronos when they land.

Tayloring part was taking Night shields when i normally dont bother myself with them. There still are al ot of tactics to use against those machines.

DA should not be on the table when Deathmarks deploy.

Vasara wrote:

Tayloring part was taking Night shields when i normally dont bother myself with them. There still are al ot of tactics to use against those machines.

I was talking about the advice to swap out my Grotesquerie for Dark Artisan.

Vasara wrote:

DA should not be on the table when Deathmarks deploy.

How can I make this come about?

I can start them in reserve, but those Deathmarks will also be in reserve - so it just comes down to who gets their reserves first.

You can make choises that effect on how those rolls are going to go. For example deploy first and go second (or not try to steal initiative if you are made to go second) and leaving those Models in reserve. Not giving opponent -1 for reserve rolls as warlor trait.

The Shredder wrote:

EDIT: Also, with regard to the DA, what about the Deathmarks? On average, they'll kill either the Talos or Chronos when they land.

Not according to my maths. Assuming they land in Rapid Fire range and mark the DA unit for 2+ to wound, that's 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88 wounds (1.234 unsaved) and 2.22 rends (0.926 unsaved) for a total of just over 2 unsaved wounds (2.16). Plus he's just landed in assault range!

also, is that a 1500 list? personally I think the grotesquerie is just too costly to run at that sort of level.

As Count implied in his first post, you're pretty short of alpha firepower - only 1 ravager and potentially the scourges to reach out and touch stuff on turn 1. In a TAC list I'd be looking to have a lot more long range anti tank than that (I think 8 Lances and 4 scourge HWB in my 1500 list).

Count Adhemar wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

EDIT: Also, with regard to the DA, what about the Deathmarks? On average, they'll kill either the Talos or Chronos when they land.

Not according to my maths. Assuming they land in Rapid Fire range and mark the DA unit for 2+ to wound, that's 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88 wounds (1.234 unsaved) and 2.22 rends (0.926 unsaved) for a total of just over 2 unsaved wounds (2.16). Plus he's just landed in assault range!

Bear in mind that the Destroyer Lord gives them Preferred Enemy.

My math brings their wounds to 2.93 - which is very likely a dead Talos/Cronos.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

also, is that a 1500 list? personally I think the grotesquerie is just too costly to run at that sort of level.

Fair enough.

But, is the same not true for DA then? It doesn't cost much less.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

As Count implied in his first post, you're pretty short of alpha firepower - only 1 ravager and potentially the scourges to reach out and touch stuff on turn 1. In a TAC list I'd be looking to have a lot more long range anti tank than that (I think 8 Lances and 4 scourge HWB in my 1500 list).

What would you suggest me adding/swapping?

The Shredder wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

EDIT: Also, with regard to the DA, what about the Deathmarks? On average, they'll kill either the Talos or Chronos when they land.

Not according to my maths. Assuming they land in Rapid Fire range and mark the DA unit for 2+ to wound, that's 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88 wounds (1.234 unsaved) and 2.22 rends (0.926 unsaved) for a total of just over 2 unsaved wounds (2.16). Plus he's just landed in assault range!

Bear in mind that the Destroyer Lord gives them Preferred Enemy.

My math brings their wounds to 2.93 - which is very likely a dead Talos/Cronos.

Ah yes, I had indeed forgotten that. Even so, that unit is costing somewhere in the region of 400 points (plus their Nightscythe) so it's not unreasonable for them to be able to (probably) shoot down one of your models in the most favorable of circumstances. We're not the only army to have problems with S.A.D. (Suddenly Appearing Deathmarks). Just be thankful he's not taking a Cryptek with the Abyssal Staff as well! Only way to avoid this is to be in combat when they arrive but that probably relies on bad reserve rolls for your opponent and a bit of luck on your part.

Personally I think Necrons are underestimated by many people. They can be a very nasty opponent as they have no real weaknesses, extreme firepower (albeit at poor AP), incredible maneuverability and durability. Plus, with the addition of Wraiths and the ridiculous MSS they offer excellent melee ability too. And don't even get me started on Overlords in Command Barges!

The Shredder wrote:

What would you suggest me adding/swapping?

Far be it from me to tell you what you should take (I'm very much a proponent of taking the things you like using) but, as you asked...

My 'standard' 1500 list (granted, it's a shooting list) has 2 triple lance ravagers and 5 raiders with lances on the board on turn 1 as my alpha firepower, with a lance razorwing to come in from reserve and heat lance scourges, haywire scourges and two warrior squads with blasters as beta firepower.

Infantry is dealt with by two gunboats (on two of the raiders), two venoms and the razorwing's missile in later turns (or on arrival if the lances aren't required).

Count Adhemar wrote:

Ah yes, I had indeed forgotten that. Even so, that unit is costing somewhere in the region of 400 points (plus their Nightscythe) so it's not unreasonable for them to be able to (probably) shoot down one of your models in the most favorable of circumstances.

Not unreasonable, no, but should I be using DA if he has an excellent unit to counter it?

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Far be it from me to tell you what you should take (I'm very much a proponent of taking the things you like using) but, as you asked...

My 'standard' 1500 list (granted, it's a shooting list) has 2 triple lance ravagers and 5 raiders with lances on the board on turn 1 as my alpha firepower, with a lance razorwing to come in from reserve and heat lance scourges, haywire scourges and two warrior squads with blasters as beta firepower.

Infantry is dealt with by two gunboats (on two of the raiders), two venoms and the razorwing's missile in later turns (or on arrival if the lances aren't required).

Fair enough.

Unfortunately, I only own 3 Raiders and 1 Ravager - so I can't really match that firepower even if I wanted to.

Perhaps I should just stop playing DE until I can afford to buy more vehicles.

Haha, not at all! You've still got six lances there, and did I see you said you'd got scourges? How many squads?

Bear in mind that against jinking vehicles, you should average an unsaved penetrating hit against AV12 once in 9 shots.

With scourges and haywire blasters, you should cause 5 glances or better from 18 shots.

Now bearing in mind that your ravager brings three lances, and assuming they can all draw line of sight to the target each turn, it should take three turns just to get a single pen. Haywire scourges on the other hand should wreck the same vehicle over 4 turns through glances.

I guess the other point to bear in mind is what are you trying to achieve? If you're after making his vehicles jink, then scourges bring the greater threat as if he doesn't jink they've a good chance to take down a 3HP vehicle in one turn (it's statistically 2.2ish HP's per turn, but with dice it's not a massive leap to see that that's a serious threat). Compare that to a single ravager which should hit with 2 lances, and even then getting a pen on a 5+ is by no means likely for your damage results.

That being said, range has a big part to play and if those scourges are in range of his vehicles and they don't bring them down, they'll definitely be in range in the Necron turn!

The Shredder wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Ah yes, I had indeed forgotten that. Even so, that unit is costing somewhere in the region of 400 points (plus their Nightscythe) so it's not unreasonable for them to be able to (probably) shoot down one of your models in the most favorable of circumstances.

Not unreasonable, no, but should I be using DA if he has an excellent unit to counter it?

Personally I would. They serve two purposes of absorbing huge amounts of firepower from the Necrons and of being an actual melee threat. If that threat is countered by another unit which is then sat in the middle of the table and shot to pieces by the rest of your army then it seems a fair trade, given that the Deathmarks and Destroyer Lord cost as much as or more than your unit. Plus there's always a chance that the Cronos won't die and that you'll then be able to shoot and assault the deathmarks with a full DA unit the following turn (including with an AP3 template).

One word of advice - keep your Haemonculus naked. If the DA get into combat, issue or accept a challenge from the Destroyer Lord. If you pass the MSS roll there's still a slim chance of doing some damage to him but if you fail, the Haemonculus cannot damage the Talos or Cronos. Hopefully the T & C will then do enough damage to break the Deathmarks and slaughter them in the sweeping advance, although your Haem may still die (not guaranteed by any means though, the Destroyer Lord has poor WS, fairly low A and the Haem still has FNP).

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Haha, not at all! You've still got six lances there, and did I see you said you'd got scourges? How many squads?

Only one at the moment.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Bear in mind that against jinking vehicles, you should average an unsaved penetrating hit against AV12 once in 9 shots.

With scourges and haywire blasters, you should cause 5 glances or better from 18 shots.

Now bearing in mind that your ravager brings three lances, and assuming they can all draw line of sight to the target each turn, it should take three turns just to get a single pen. Haywire scourges on the other hand should wreck the same vehicle over 4 turns through glances.

I guess the other point to bear in mind is what are you trying to achieve? If you're after making his vehicles jink, then scourges bring the greater threat as if he doesn't jink they've a good chance to take down a 3HP vehicle in one turn (it's statistically 2.2ish HP's per turn, but with dice it's not a massive leap to see that that's a serious threat). Compare that to a single ravager which should hit with 2 lances, and even then getting a pen on a 5+ is by no means likely for your damage results.

That being said, range has a big part to play and if those scourges are in range of his vehicles and they don't bring them down, they'll definitely be in range in the Necron turn!

Two questions - First, if I mass Scourges, will I leave myself too vulnerable to a vehicle-less GK list or a tyranid list (which I also play against frequently)?

Also, do you think it's possible for me to include a reasonable amount of firepower whilst still including something from the Coven book?

Like said, I think you are missing a lot in the alpha strike, too many blasters compairing to lances.
Also, imho if you're planning to have a TAC list, DA is the way to go. Grots are strong and useful, but not against every list. DA is a huge fire magnet, and every shot at them is a shot less on your other units. DSing them with a WWP could also avoid you the annoying deathmarks.
You have to focus on priority targets and start taking them off since T1.
In this cron list I think the stalker could be a real pain against DA twinlinking the whole army.
The arks and the barge have a 30" threat range (but never trust tesla snap shooting), your is longer with lances and hwb.
But the more important...think the list could be far worse, with bargelords, teleporting stormteks and scarabfarms

Javorra wrote:

Like said, I think you are missing a lot in the alpha strike, too many blasters compairing to lances.

Well, I could replace up to 3 of the Venoms with Raiders, but it seems that would leave me with virtually no anti-infantry stuff.

Javorra wrote:

Also, imho if you're planning to have a TAC list, DA is the way to go. Grots are strong and useful, but not against every list. DA is a huge fire magnet, and every shot at them is a shot less on your other units. DSing them with a WWP could also avoid you the annoying deathmarks.
You have to focus on priority targets and start taking them off since T1.

Ok, I'll give DA a try.

But, how would I use it against this list?

Draigo
Lv3 Librarian
9 Terminators with psycannon and various melee weapons
10 GKs with psycannon, daemonhammer and probably other stuff
Dreadknight with teleporter, heavy incinerator, heavy psycannon and sword
Dreadknight with teleporter, heavy incinerator, heavy psycannon and sword

The Shredder wrote:

First, if I mass Scourges, will I leave myself too vulnerable to a vehicle-less GK list or a tyranid list (which I also play against frequently)?

Depends on the weapons you give them - I just bring two squads one has haywire blasters, the other has heat lances (which work a treat against 2+ T4 infantry). That's only 240 points for the two units, so not a huge investment, and with 4+/6++ they're actually a lot more resilient than most of our units.

The Shredder wrote:

Also, do you think it's possible for me to include a reasonable amount of firepower whilst still including something from the Coven book?

Definitely - Dark Artisan has been mentioned, and that comes in around the 400pts mark, it's still expensive but the only thing you need to watch out for with it is instant death (which you can sort of mitigate against anyway). Other alternatives, I like Scalpel Squadron, and for a coven heavy list I quite like the fleshcorps - they don't bring the firepower of warriors but the raider can still bring lances and 30 Wracks charging into combat is going to upset a lot of people.

... wait three weeks for their book to come out and "fix" MSS and Tesla and....

The Shredder wrote:

Ok, I'll give DA a try.

But, how would I use it against this list?

Draigo
Lv3 Librarian
9 Terminators with psycannon and various melee weapons
10 GKs with psycannon, daemonhammer and probably other stuff
Dreadknight with teleporter, heavy incinerator, heavy psycannon and sword
Dreadknight with teleporter, heavy incinerator, heavy psycannon and sword

Personal opinion follows:

I think Dark Artisan is a fantastic formation. But I think GK are its worst matchup.

With that said, I think you hide them and maybe shoot a bit against that list. Sure, that's a lot of points spent on a Twin-Linker Splinter Cannon and maybe a flamer from time to time, but it is what it is.

The rest of your army can probably just kill those GK on their own. That list is, in my opinion, pretty terrible. You've got so much more speed that you can just run circles around them and they are unlikely to ever end up in combat. Sure then get saves against almost all of your gunfire, but they are playing the 24" game and either can't really move (GK in power armour with Psycannons) or have great mobility only once before being stranded (Dreadknights and Deep Strikers). You can always redeploy and kite them around the board. Sure they can Gate. But Gate is full of problems in my opinion and more specifically prevents them from bringing those force weapons to bear.

Against that army, I would probably deploy ONLY the DA formation & keep the remainder in reserve (if going second) this allows you to stay away from the dreadknights and get your alpha strike when you come in from reserves without him shunting into your models and using his incinerators to kill your dudes through no retreat wounds. Come on & scatter so he has to split his forces, target one unit & shoot it dead. If he then targets one of your flanks, boost over to the other. If he splits between your scattered units, boost together and gang up.

In this manner, the DA formation is the only thing allowing you to pull an effective "null deployment" by providing a resilient unit you can tuck behind cover in your deployment zone.

This is really not that different from the grotesquery discussion you started a couple of days ago where you discussed the potential negative draw of grey knights. The advice there was to avoid combat wherever possible & utilize your poison shooting (at the knights) and your lances at the terminators. In this case, again, the dark artisan will effectively be a road block for the scary things to prevent them from charging your more important (in the route to victory, not necessarily army composition %) units.

Specific to the Necron List - personally speaking, he doesn't have that good of a list. He is putting a lot of weight into the new detachment's rerolling of 1's for the troops. The detachment isn't bad; however, Necron Troops (and Ghost Arks) are expensive and having 3 required means less points for more optimized options elsewhere. But, looking at the troops themselves, he's got the immortals and 2x5 warriors in transports. The Night Scythes and the units inside are problematic but I'm not seeing anything in terms of reserve manipulation.

As other have said, strengthening the alpha strike will do some damage. Dark Artisan will be good to bring in, especially if they deep strike after the deathmarks disembark. It is a prime target for the Deathmarks; however, if the formation comes in after the Deathmark's Night Scythe, you should have a good 2 turns until the Night Scythe can fly off and then come back on to blast you. DA is also strong enough to not take much for hits however, it needs to be able to pop transports and vehicles when it comes in.

One other thing that Necron players hate is template weapons. Like DE's transports, Ghost Arks are open topped and subject to the No Escape rule. If your friend is only putting 5 models in there, getting 2 liquifier gun hits on the barge sounds like a perfect way to remove resurrection completely from those units. The Ghost ark is still pretty durable on it's own but without passengers, it looses some effectiveness. Scalpel Squadrons or Dark Artisan could be useful here as well.

Lastly - DE can easily out run and out range Necrons. Both armies excel at board control and positioning but if you can hit them harder with dark lances at range, you'll fall. Along these lines, know when to shoot and when to flat out. Sometimes, it's better to not shoot but to flat out and reposition yourself so you can hit them hard the following turn.

Izathel wrote:

Personal opinion follows:

I think Dark Artisan is a fantastic formation.  But I think GK are its worst matchup.

With that said, I think you hide them and maybe shoot a bit against that list.  Sure, that's a lot of points spent on a Twin-Linker Splinter Cannon and maybe a flamer from time to time, but it is what it is.  

The rest of your army can probably just kill those GK on their own.  That list is, in my opinion, pretty terrible.  You've got so much more speed that you can just run circles around them and they are unlikely to ever end up in combat.  Sure then get saves against almost all of your gunfire, but they are playing the 24" game and either can't really move (GK in power armour with Psycannons) or have great mobility only once before being stranded (Dreadknights and Deep Strikers).  You can always redeploy and kite them around the board.  Sure they can Gate.  But Gate is full of problems in my opinion and more specifically prevents them from bringing those force weapons to bear.

Bear in mind that Draigo automatically has Gate of Infinity - so can just redeploy the terminators each psychic phase.

Also, I'm confused as to how I'm winning a range war. I mean, those DKs have their shunt more - which they can use to down one of my vehicles each (probably the blaster-trueborn) and the passengers in a one move. Then, they still have a 12" move with a 24" range Heavy Psycannon. Even if I keep at my maximum range, they can still shoot back. And, my Warriors and Trueborn are only effective at 18".

clever handle wrote:

Against that army, I would probably deploy ONLY the DA formation & keep the remainder in reserve (if going second) this allows you to stay away from the dreadknights and get your alpha strike when you come in from reserves without him shunting into your models and using his incinerators to kill your dudes through no retreat wounds.  Come on & scatter so he has to split his forces, target one unit & shoot it dead.  If he then targets one of your flanks, boost over to the other.  If he splits between your scattered units, boost together and gang up.

I can see how this gets me a turn of shooting - but surely he can just shunt move in his turn and still take out my units?

clever handle wrote:

In this manner, the DA formation is the only thing allowing you to pull an effective "null deployment" by providing a resilient unit you can tuck behind cover in your deployment zone.

With my other units, would you recommend deep-striking, or just moving in from my table edge?

clever handle wrote:

This is really not that different from the grotesquery discussion you started a couple of days ago where you discussed the potential negative draw of grey knights.  The advice there was to avoid combat wherever possible & utilize your poison shooting (at the knights) and your lances at the terminators.  In this case, again, the dark artisan will effectively be a road block for the scary things to prevent them from charging your more important (in the route to victory, not necessarily army composition %) units.

Well, my Grotesques at least had mobility on their side.

Unholyllama wrote:

One other thing that Necron players hate is template weapons.  Like DE's transports, Ghost Arks are open topped and subject to the No Escape rule.  If your friend is only putting 5 models in there, getting 2 liquifier gun hits on the barge sounds like a perfect way to remove resurrection completely from those units.  The Ghost ark is still pretty durable on it's own but without passengers, it looses some effectiveness.  Scalpel Squadrons or Dark Artisan could be useful here as well.

I don't see what 2 Liquifier guns will accomplish. 2d6 hits will average 7 hits, and 2.3 wounds. Even if I roll sufficient AP, I'm not even averaging half the squad dead.

Unholyllama wrote:

Lastly - DE can easily out run and out range Necrons.  Both armies excel at board control and positioning but if you can hit them harder with dark lances at range, you'll fall.  Along these lines, know when to shoot and when to flat out.  Sometimes, it's better to not shoot but to flat out and reposition yourself so you can hit them hard the following turn.

Trouble is, I have no way to outrange his fliers - which are the most damaging thing in his list. And, as soon as my transports go, my troops are doomed and his fliers can just chase after my other transports.

My friend's favourite army is crons so I have a lot of exp. playing against them.

Your opponents list is not great, not enough scythes, annihilation barges, haywire crypteks, CCBs or wraiths imho.

Early game do as much damage to his army as possible before the scythes fly on. Your casualties should be light as you can out range/manoeuvre much of his army.

Before his flyers come on T2 you should spread out, turbo at his board edge and/or hide you most important units behind LOSB terrain. Generally just make life difficult for his flyers.

Some of his scythes will shoot you and drop units that will also shoot you and you will suffer damage and lose units but hopefully his flyers and disembarked units have mirrored you and spread out. A MSU style list will really help minimise your losses.

Now just do what DE do best and redeploy and torrent 1 or 2 units to death at a time. Crons mostly suck in CC, try to make them break and run them down, your Int is high, his is low, use that.

When jinking with raiders or ravagers shoot at his flyers as you need 6s to hit anyway. Keep an eye open for any objs that give skyfire if you are using those rules, they are a godsend.

Good luck mate!