Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?

This seems to have merged into two different topics. Lack of anti-air is one thing... the Razorwing not being a good flyer is another. Is the Razorwing a great anti-flyer option? Not really but 2 dark lances are nothing laugh at. Is it a good flyer? Absolutely as it pounds the day lights out of infantry at a very affordable cost without eating up heavy slots on the FOC. They become absolutely devastating against infantry when taken in multiples.  

If you need a good anti-flyer and your are willing to go with some Eldar allies you can easily convert a Razorwing into a nightwing which has been excellent for me. In over 14 games mine has never died, and its killed every flyer fielded against me. Even taking out 2 Vendettas and a Vulture in a single game. Its a little more expensive than a Razorwing but with 2 bright lances, 2 shuriken cannons, vector dancer and a 2+ jink save it is a very good air superiority unit.

I'm going to second Cav as far as the commentary that the Razorwing is good.

I'll agree it's not a good anti-air unit, but that doesn't really matter at the end of the day. I can get 2 lances, 4 large blast missiles, and an s.rifle on a fast flying unit for 140 points in the FA slot. That's cheap, easy, and really pretty darn good against a lot of units (basically anything infantry lacking a 2+ armor save or 6+ toughness, and solid against basically any vehicle that is AV 12 or more and even better against AV 11 or less)

That's just a good unit for killing infantry and providing anti-mech support. Heck, you can make it cheaper, take Dissies,a nd have an even better dedicated anti-infantry unit that *easily* competes with the Venom as far as capability to kill infantry goes. People take 2 empty Venoms for the same purpose, and overlook the fury and power of the Razorwing for reasons...that kind of escape me, honestly.

I will agree that the Voidraven is dreck though. It is assuredly overpriced for what it can accomplish on the tabletop.

With regard to anti-air, I really wouldn't rate either of our fliers highly. They might be ok against AV10 stuff, but once you get to stuff like Vendettas or Storm Wolves (the sort of fliers you'd actually want dedicated air for) they're just not remotely reliable.

In addition, they're so fragile that enemies can easily shoot them out of the air if their fliers come on second - or simply after your own shots have bounced off AV12.

I think it's against ground targets that they shine. 2 Large Blasts (twice) and 2 Dark Lances make the Razorwing pretty brutal against a lot of targets, whilst being relatively resilient by DE standards (Skyfire not withstanding). And, the cost is pretty low.

The Voidraven I'm less keen on - as it's more expensive for no extra resilience and 3 fewer blasts. But, it's lance weapons are a little better and, unlike the Razorwing, it can hit 2 different targets on the turn it arrives (one with the bombs, one with the lances). So, you can hit some infantry, whilst
still shooting at an enemy vehicle or flier. I don't know how important this is, but it seems worth mentioning.


With regard to Razorwings, do you guys upgrade to Lances, or do you stick with the Disintegrators? Lances give you a bit more versatility, but with large blast missiles, it seems like you're aiming for infantry anyway.

I always take two razorwings. Having two means that they can threaten other flyers quite well. They should at least make them jink.

As for anti infantry. They are amazing. One can remove a blob or 10man tac squad without much trouble. Sometimes having just poison just doesn't cut it. Why waste 10 venoms shooting into a blob when 1 razorwing can do the same thing by itself. Venoms are for clean up for any stragglers

I like the Razorwing. I'll try and run 3 in my next game against Imperial Guard and see if I can give my opponent fits, even with his 2 Hydra AA tanks.

They just seem pretty much useless against biker spam

My list has a lot of AT in it and can handle MSU with speed. I take Razorwings incase I run into blobs since otherwise I only have two Venoms as significant AI.

I don't think in a DL spamming army they provide much use though.

a1elbow wrote:

I don't think in a DL spamming army they provide much use though.

They are anti-infantry that has lances - isn't that the definition of helping DL spam lists?

I guess it depends on where you get/put your DL spam. If you have a decent selection of Venoms (going Blasterborn) then there might be enough AI.

But if you went all out Ravagers/Raiders/etc a Razorwing would give the AI boost.

It's what I use them for.
Pop the mech Turn 1-3.
Nuke the squads when the fliers show up via missile spew, and then just troll lances at whatever you wish because lances are decent at harming basically anything in the game.

I'll argue for using the voidraven over using the razorwings. I rarely have trouble with infantry blobs as my assault units can take care of that, so I'll need the flier for AT. Seeing how the dark lances are fairly unreliable I'd rather have the voidlances against tanks. The voidmine is also nice for instant deathing characters.

If they are anti infantry why not take diss instead of lances, more anti infantry. But that is the problem the rest of our army is so much better at anti infantry what is the point of bringing more? Especially since 9 times out of 10 the blast will only hit 3 guys (and if they hit more the lances are being wasted on that squad) and it is stupid to shoot only 1 blast the first turn so you have to not use one of your main 3 guns. And for the bomber it can anti infantry with s8 ap2 blasts (sexy against paladins) but against anything else it's worse because they are small blast that cant hurt flyers and the s9 is nice but it will get shot the turn after it comes in.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

If they are anti infantry why not take diss instead of lances, more anti infantry. But that is the problem the rest of our army is so much better at anti infantry what is the point of bringing more?

Well, define 'better', I suppose?
Our basic infantry is 'decent' but assuredly the Razorwing is better at inflicting damage when you work in range and target delivery.
The Venom has the range, but on a 1 to 1 basis is assuredly inferior. Even on a roughly equal footing of 2 Venoms (130) vs. 1 Razorwing (130) I don't think the Venoms actually outperform the Razorwing in too many ways. Both have more optimal matchups, natch (the Razorwing will eat Termies better, the Venom eats 5+ armor saves outside of cover better, et al. But they are assuredly not 'better' than the Razorwing except in specific ways. I'd call them equal.

So, no, I think the Razorwing is, indeed, one of the best anti-infantry units in our codex and would wonder what you consider better and how you justify that belief.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Especially since 9 times out of 10 the blast will only hit 3 guys (and if they hit more the lances are being wasted on that squad)

I'm not sure what the lance note is about, but even just presuming each blast hits 3 guys (which seems a pretty fair expectation considering the size of the template and the rules for coherency as well as situations where you can catch your opponent more bunched up). But that would be 12 hits - which is functional compared to 2 Venom's 16 hits - especially since when, to wound most things, the Venoms will create 8 wounds and the Razorwing will do 10.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

and it is stupid to shoot only 1 blast the first turn so you have to not use one of your main 3 guns.

Depends what you're shooting at, really. Also, i don't consider the splinter cannon a main gun, and also rarely take it so it's not even an issue as a consideration.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

And for the bomber it can anti infantry with s8 ap2 blasts (sexy against paladins) but against anything else it's worse because they are small blast that cant hurt flyers and the s9 is nice but it will get shot the turn after it comes in.

I agree, the Voidraven is not very good for what you pay for it.

Just as an example, in my last game my razorwing took out 18 guardsmen in one turn, and that's with one of the missiles missing completely. Don't think you'll find many venoms that match that sort of return very often.

It also helped me to take down pask and his squadmates. Versatile, and well worth the investment

You say your Razorwing took out 18 Guardsmen in 1 turn. Well it would have to .... You don't have any more missiles. Venoms shoot every turn. Assuming 2 Venoms as a comparison, 8 armour ignoring wounds on Guard only takes 2 turns to kill 16 models. That's the turn (if you are lucky) your flyer arrives. Then no more Guard die from the flyer, but another 16 Guard die over the next 2 turns of Venom fire ..... Not a perfect comparison, but you get the gist.

The question is - when does the Venom's killing capacity come into play best?

I field both, because I think one does need some anti-infantry on the board Turn 1 to deal with Lootas/Longfangs/et al - but when it comes to dealing with blobs I think the Razorwing on turn 2+ is immensely more efficient than a like (or greater) number of points brought to bear in Venoms.

Also, to compare 2 turns of shooting from 2 Venoms versus one turn from a Razorwing and to not take into account the capability of the enemy to eat one of our vehicles (or more) for breakfast seems short sighted. Yes, over a certain period of time, as long as they do not die, the Venoms will perform better. However, I do not often find that I have multiple turs to do that sort of stuff because my lads are dying. If a Razorwing can manage in one shooting phase what would take 2 Venoms 2+ then - yeah, I find the Razorwing more valuable in that sense due to more immediate threat removal which will weaken the amount of shooting coming back at me. I play basically every turn like that - I remove threats, I don't whittle away at them like that narf thousand cuts card suggests I should.

Thor665 wrote:

I'm not sure what the lance note is about

You are wasting the lance shot it you are shooting at a blob squad like IG (which if you hit more than 3 on a blast against a good player it is most likely a crappy armor save).
How will the razorwing eat termies or are you not upgrading to DL on them?
Lets do another comparison on 130 points a raider with night shield and 2 medusae 2 Sslyth (or 4 medusaes). 2 medusae will kill everything under the template, can deepstrike, ignore cover, ap3, t5 fnp 5+, jink for 3+ cover without worrying about not shooting the important things, can start the game on the table if you want, and can move 30" in any direction if you want to or 6" and shoot with the templates, if the vehicle blows up you can still move and attack. 4 medusae make blob infantry cry worse than the fighter and if you want something to charge it it better be tough because 4d3 ap3 flamers is nothing to ignore.

Thor665 wrote:

So, no, I think the Razorwing is, indeed, one of the best anti-infantry units in our codex and would wonder what you consider better and how you justify that belief.

Starts in reserve no way to change that unless special mission type. Turn 2 it may come on may come on turn 3 or 4. Turn it comes on does your 12-15 hits with all 4 missiles than spends the rest of the game shooting 2 disses and TL splinter rifle. The majority of opponents where I am is space marines and space marine bikes. so out of those 15 hits you do 13 wounds (about average with fleshbane you get 4 dead 3+ space marines. Turn 3,4,5 if you are in position to do the Best Possible Damage rapid fire range and are not jinking you get 2-3 disses wounds and 1 poison wound on space marines, who in cover save 2 wounds total. Max killed is 10 dead space marines.
2 venoms, if ignored like the flyer, will do 8 wounds a turn for 5 turns will be 40 wounds which equals 13 dead space marines hypothetically, can hold objectives, and carry troops.
The court above will kill 5 space marines every 2 turns (1 turn to get there 1 turn to kill a full 5 man squad) giving it 20 kills if ignored.

Is the fighter going to be harder to kill for the majority of the opponent weaponry? Yes. But what army doesn't have mass anti air or good flyers that can't take out our flyer easily? So that 130 point model wont reach the end of the game if someone looks at it while it can't take down other flyers meanwhile killing 4 space marines the turn you come in which the only way to get the points back is for them to be  a devastator squad you haven't already taken out 1st turn with your venoms (which means the targeting priority needs to be addressed).

Thor665 wrote:

I remove threats, I don't whittle away at them like that narf thousand cuts card suggests I should.

That's the only way to play DE

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

You are wasting the lance shot it you are shooting at a blob squad like IG (which if you hit more than 3 on a blast against a good player it is most likely a crappy armor save).

If I'm shooting at infantry blobs I'm shooting missiles, not lances, if I have lances. And if the unit will benefit from having lances shot at it to the point I'd shoot lances, then it is clearly not a waste.

You also keep touting this three model business. It's a 5" diameter blast marker - it's a 1" base, it's 2" unit coherency. By MINIMUM definition, if the squad has 3 models in it I can hit them all with one missile. Generally speaking, unless your opponent is a small squad (not worth shooting the missiles at unless lacking other targets) or has opted for a single line deployment - you can do 3 or better for hits, barring bad scatter. I don't mind talking the 3 - but I would like you to be cognizant that it is indeed a bare minimum number for hits unless the squad itself has less than 3 models in it. Generally, especially with larger squads, I find terrain, disembarkation rules, assaults, and other units all tend to favor narrowing of coherency more often than not. Maybe this is unique to my play experience, but from all pictures I've seen of major events, or batrep videos/pics/et al I feel as though my experience is pretty close to the norm.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

How will the razorwing eat termies or are you not upgrading to DL on them?

I was comparing a 130 v. 130, not a 130 v. 140, so was talking Dissies.
That said, I'm pretty sure the Razorwing would still outperform versus Termies by firing two missiles and two lance shots compared to 2 Venoms.

Presuming 3 hits with missiles, and 2 lances firing = 1.57 dead Termies (1.2 w. shields)
Venoms would fire 24 shots = 1.33 dead Termies.
A mild competition, where each gets better depending on the specific target situation.
Dissie Razorwings, obviously, do perform better, natch. Lance ones do fine though - and start doing better depending on missile saturation capability, natch, like if they just ported in.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Lets do another comparison on 130 points a raider with night shield and 2 medusae 2 Sslyth (or 4 medusaes). 2 medusae will kill everything under the template, can deepstrike, ignore cover, ap3, t5 fnp 5+, jink for 3+ cover without worrying about not shooting the important things, can start the game on the table if you want, and can move 30" in any direction if you want to or 6" and shoot with the templates, if the vehicle blows up you can still move and attack. 4 medusae make blob infantry cry worse than the fighter and if you want something to charge it it better be tough because 4d3 ap3 flamers is nothing to ignore.

Well, first off, i think your math is off - because even if I just take a base Raider with no upgrades the 100 points you're putting inside of it is going to make it cost more than 130, or 140 for that matter.

My math has the unit at 170-175 depending on if you want to take a lance or not. Even without any upgrades I have it at 155. So, again, we can do the compare, but let's just be aware that your unit is more expensive than the Razorwing in basically any loadout that people are advocating.

2 Medusae kill 'everything' under the template? Well, as long as 'everything' is T4 or less and 3+ or worse for saves, sure, on average they will do that.

Also, if we are going with your 3 model number for blasts - then an 8 inch flamer, losing an inch due to rules of opposing models, can get basically 3-4 models presuming perfect deepstrike or disembarkation after a pretty darn accurate deepstrike. (this uses your max spread out concept - you lose an inch for legal placement of your model close to his model, 1 inch per base, and 2 inches between each model with an awareness that the end of the template theoretically could be shaved towards an edge of one base near he end to theoretically catch another base as long as your opponent didn't have them at 2" spread at that point as the template itself is 2" wide)
So 3-4 wounds from the 2 Medusae on a T4 3+ unit.
Versus 3.33 from the Razorwing who also is a flyer and has an extra lance.
So, your more expensive unit is doing a bit less to a bit more in damage.
I am aware I'm not counting the Sslyth shots, which would then help push it over the edge, as would the 2 extra Medusae if you went that route. Of course if we start talking different targets than the Medusae's optimal target, then the Razorwing's numbers (and range) will start making it perform better against such spread out squads.

I disagree that the Raider is more survivable than the fighter, jink or not, after that point, especially against stuff like Tau, IG, and Eldar. I also don't see much point in comparing the movement of the Raider to the Razorwing,a s clearly with a desire to shoot or not the Razorwing is the faster option. The Court brings in assault options depending on loadout I suppose.
Razorwing is also FA while Court is HQ - which means I can field 2 Razorwings a lot easier with a CAD build, which is a definite desire of mine, especially avoiding Warlord kill issues or having to take an Archon.

I would agree it is in a mild ballpark, but would note that the Razorwing is both cheaper and more universally functional (which I find more useful)

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Starts in reserve no way to change that unless special mission type.

I agree this is a weakness, though for a unit you plan to kill infantry with I submit it's a mild weakness.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Turn it comes on does your 12-15 hits with all 4 missiles than spends the rest of the game shooting 2 disses and TL splinter rifle. The majority of opponents where I am is space marines and space marine bikes. so out of those 15 hits you do 13 wounds (about average with fleshbane you get 4 dead 3+ space marines. Turn 3,4,5 if you are in position to do the Best Possible Damage rapid fire range and are not jinking you get 2-3 disses wounds and 1 poison wound on space marines, who in cover save 2 wounds total. Max killed is 10 dead space marines.
2 venoms, if ignored like the flyer, will do 8 wounds a turn for 5 turns will be 40 wounds which equals 13 dead space marines hypothetically, can hold objectives, and carry troops.
The court above will kill 5 space marines every 2 turns (1 turn to get there 1 turn to kill a full 5 man squad) giving it 20 kills if ignored.

Yes, I will agree that 2 Venoms that are untouched versus a Razorwing that is untouched, will, on average, cause more kills to Space marines in cover than the Razorwing does. I will also agree that if the Court is able to do what you are saying, that they also would cause more damage over the course of the game.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Is the fighter going to be harder to kill for the majority of the opponent weaponry? Yes. But what army doesn't have mass anti air or good flyers that can't take out our flyer easily?

A number of tournament lists eschew flyers to a certain extent, or attempt to kill them via weight of fire from regular ground units. Eldar and Knights (arguably the two primary tourney cores right now) both fit this scheme. Specifically Knights tend to have an issue with flyers, especially flyers with lances, in my opinion.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

So that 130 point model wont reach the end of the game if someone looks at it while it can't take down other flyers meanwhile killing 4 space marines the turn you come in which the only way to get the points back is for them to be  a devastator squad you haven't already taken out 1st turn with your venoms (which means the targeting priority needs to be addressed).

I have found mine to perform better than your listed expectations for them, and have noted my thoughts on your numbers. I also find them acceptably survivable and/or acceptably absorbing of enemy fire - both of which are valuable in my opinion.

Just to add to what Thor has provided. Rarely do I see lists that have much in the way of dedicated anti-air. Usually it seems to come from large quantities or twinlinked mid strength fire which is bad for all of our units anyway. Even if they do have anti-air its usually just as lethal to our skimmers as our fliers.

Your points are valid, but are also very overblown. They are verry much designed to create the worst environment for a flier (really any flier, not just ours), and the best for whatever unit you want to compare it to.

For example, if I wanted to do this same technique I would say that your raider with medusea isn't good because a wave serpent, or wyvern (I'm not sure), or many other things that ignore cover (in addition to being vulnerable to ground fire, and assault) would easily destroy it before it gets to do anything. The Razorwing would at least have a chance due to the difficulty in hitting it. This is true, but it doesn't mean that bad to take that raider.

You have asked why people like them and received a lot of input. No one has said they they are the absolute best thing to put in your list and are better than all other choices. They have provided examples of why they like them, demonstrated the things they do well, provided tactical advice on how to best use them, and made a lot points about their versatility. You are free to still not like them of course, but you have been provided with plenty of information on why other do.

With regard to the comparison with the medusa unit, let's also not forget a few things.

1. That unit either starts in reserve (same as the razorwing, therefore the same drawbacks), or it starts on the table. And gets shot at if your opponent is even slightly aware of what they can do.

2. The Court has almost zero capability against vehicles, limited to the close combat attacks of the sslyth. The Dark Lance Razorwing (still cheaper than the cheapest build for the court) is able to contribute to both anti armour and anti infantry, depending on the tactical situation on the board when it arrives. With reference to my previous example, i took out the quad gun my opponent brought on the first turn, leaving him with no dedicated anti-air. The Razorwing then came on in turn 2 and added its two lances to the weight of fire on the board, taking down Pask's squadron. The following turn it fired off its missiles and took out 18 guardsmen, at which point my opponent conceded. Had I been faced with an infantry list, I could have used the missiles earlier but the razorwing gave me the tactical flexibility to assess what was most threatening and deal with it accordingly.

In comparison, the two venoms i took both died on turn 1 having caused a handful of casualties (albeit netting me first blood for making a squad flee the table).

Yeah that suped up Raider and Medusae vs. a Razorwing in terms of effectivness just doesn't work for me. The mere fact that all units can shoot at it with full ballistic skill alone is a major knock against. The fact that it will be out of range the turn it arrives is another.

The Razorwing can utilize its fully array of weapons the turn it arrives almost every single time. Furthermore its a flyer with the built in protection of the whole skyfire mechanic.

Beyond all the theory I've just seen the Razorwing do incredible work for its points ever since 6th edition. Its a tried and true unit that punishes infantry like few other flyers in terms of offensive output. Also if you're having a super hard time with other flyers, 3 Razorwings with lances will eat up other flyers, plus the missile saturation is absolutely incredible.

Cavalier wrote:

Also if you're having a super hard time with other flyers, 3 Razorwings with lances will eat up other flyers, plus the missile saturation is absolutely incredible.

Any chance you could help me out affording the other two you've just persuaded me to buy, haha!

Hellstrom wrote:

I think you misread - he was asking for help buying Razorwings, not Voidravens.

Lol

Thor665 wrote:

Well, first off, i think your math is off - because even if I just take a base Raider with no upgrades the 100 points you're putting inside of it is going to make it cost more than 130, or 140 for that matter.

You're right my engineer brain decided to take that calculation off, 3 medusas with a night shield on the raider is 135 which would be the right number to compare to.

Thor665 wrote:

 It's a 5" diameter blast marker - it's a 1" base, it's 2" unit coherency. By MINIMUM definition, if the squad has 3 models in it I can hit them all with one missile. Generally speaking, unless your opponent is a small squad (not worth shooting the missiles at unless lacking other targets) or has opted for a single line deployment - you can do 3 or better for hits, barring bad scatter. I don't mind talking the 3 - but I would like you to be cognizant that it is indeed a bare minimum number for hits unless the squad itself has less than 3 models in it. Generally, especially with larger squads, I find terrain, disembarkation rules, assaults, and other units all tend to favor narrowing of coherency more often than not.

You are right in my miscalculation. I tend to go with my blast will 2/3rds of the time scatter 3" meaning 1 missile will be a hit, 1 will completely miss, and the other 2 somewhere in between. Where I play there aren't many blob armies I go against elite tau, dp space marines, khorn in land raiders, daemon summoning, a guy that cant decide on an army but he is doing grey knights, salamanders, and elite tau, a dp dreadnought army, and the 1 blob army takes 3 hours to deploy because he spaces everyone 2" apart. Hence why I only count each missile into infantry as 3 hits.

Thor665 wrote:

attempt to kill them via weight of fire from regular ground units. Eldar and Knights (arguably the two primary tourney cores right now) both fit this scheme.

Knights would probably ignore them because 2 lances isn't much of a worry and they can't do anything about it. The elder shoot 1-2 wave serpents at a flyer and they fall D6 S7 ignore cover TL most likely (but then again what in our army doesn't fall to a wave serpent).

Thor665 wrote:

I have found mine to perform better than your listed expectations for them, and have noted my thoughts on your numbers. I also find them acceptably survivable and/or acceptably absorbing of enemy fire - both of which are valuable in my opinion.

Because of your in-depth comments I'm willing to try the fighter again in fun play in hopes of finding a use for it.
On a side note one of my friends is complaining how his army (necrons) will have to bring their flyers due to tesla not working for snap fire for anti-air (poor him). This started the conversation as to who has anti-air models (every army except DE and necrons), we need anti-air, the necrons have good flyers. The only 3 models to bring that can get it are the fighter, bomber, and forgeworld one (don't know its rules). The fighter and bomber cant do anti-air which is what the army needs it to do.