Voidraven and Razorwing, why do people love them?

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Well, first off, i think your math is off - because even if I just take a base Raider with no upgrades the 100 points you're putting inside of it is going to make it cost more than 130, or 140 for that matter.

You're right my engineer brain decided to take that calculation off, 3 medusas with a night shield on the raider is 135 which would be the right number to compare to.

I have that at 145, myself...
That said, versus 3x Medusa, presuming the flamer and blast hits we are discussing, that is;

3.33 killed by the Razor.
4.5 killed by the Medusae.

So, in the absolute optimal Medusae setup, they kill slightly better than the Razorwing does. And the Razorwing is still the overall better TAC unit, assuredly by the time you sack out the Sslyth and also remains one of the best anti-infantry options in our dex regardless.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

You are right in my miscalculation. I tend to go with my blast will 2/3rds of the time scatter 3" meaning 1 missile will be a hit, 1 will completely miss, and the other 2 somewhere in between.

That's not a fair expectation.
1/3 of the time, straight up, there is no scatter.
2/3 of the time there is the possibility of scatter - but 16.65% of the time a scatter could happen the die roll will be 4 or less, again resulting in no scatter.

So the actual chance for zero scatter is - 44.42% of the time - which means less than half will absolutely bullseye - but expecting about 2 direct hits is hardly unlikely.
On top of that, when you expand to the idea of die rolls that will only result in 1-2" of scatter you expand your accuracy to 61.08% So - solidly over half the time your shot can be expected, on average, to move 2" or less from exactly where you want it to be. That's actually pretty solid accuracy, in my opinion especially with wise template placement.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Where I play there aren't many blob armies

I can certainly understand that - but will note a personal belief that though the Razorwing does well against blob squads, it also does well against any squad of 8+ models, and isn't exactly bad agaisnt 5+ either. It's only the smallest squads that I start to feel like my blasts are wasted upon - but that's what I bring Venoms for, to clean up the small ones after providing me a Turn 1 anti-infantry solution.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Knights would probably ignore them because 2 lances isn't much of a worry and they can't do anything about it. The elder shoot 1-2 wave serpents at a flyer and they fall D6 S7 ignore cover TL most likely (but then again what in our army doesn't fall to a wave serpent).

Knights that ignore my fliers (and, hell, they're obligated to) are Knights I kill, because fliers are great for busting up the Knights' limited footslogging objective support and then whipping around to help me threaten multiple facings at the same time - which is how you kill Knights.

A Wave Serpent versus a Razorwing will have more difficulty killing it then a Venom or Raider - despite this they do tend to fire upon my fliers, which pleases me. About the only thing that pains me is when I force a Serpent to jink and then next turn he fires on my fliers. That said - the more I can have an Eldar player fire at BS1 the happier I am for my chances in the game.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Because of your in-depth comments I'm willing to try the fighter again in fun play in hopes of finding a use for it.

I have found good use for them, and am happy I've got you to reconsider your stance. I find them now filling the slots that I used to use for Trueborn under the old dex - being an anti-infantry/anti-mech threat. They are harder to kill than Trueborn, and have better range, albeit a bit less dakka, but I find it a good and competitive fit.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

On a side note one of my friends is complaining how his army (necrons) will have to bring their flyers due to tesla not working for snap fire for anti-air (poor him). This started the conversation as to who has anti-air models (every army except DE and necrons), we need anti-air, the necrons have good flyers. The only 3 models to bring that can get it are the fighter, bomber, and forgeworld one (don't know its rules). The fighter and bomber cant do anti-air which is what the army needs it to do.

I would say a number of armies have some anti-air holes, though will agree we are one of the biggest outliers. Orks, functionally, also lack good anti-air, they just get by because snapfiring isn't really a bother to them. I would say Sisters of Battle are also along the DE level for anti-air. Daemons also, functionally, are bad at anti-air insomuch as they only have one unit that can really do it...they get by because the winged daemon prince is an otherwise brilliant fething unit they'd take anyway. I also would dare say Eldar suck at it also, as the Crimson Hunter really isn't a good value - they get by off having a lot of twin linked mid strength shooting which is successful in spite of not having good anti-air. I suppose Codex: Imperial Knights is actually the official worst one though

Yeah, I would agree, DE are one of the definite bottom three or so armies for having functional anti-air options built into their codex. Though really it's simply because the Space Marine/Imperial Guard side of things is so well supported in that regard they make everyone who isn't them look narf.

Thor665 wrote:

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Well, first off, i think your math is off - because even if I just take a base Raider with no upgrades the 100 points you're putting inside of it is going to make it cost more than 130, or 140 for that matter.

You're right my engineer brain decided to take that calculation off, 3 medusas with a night shield on the raider is 135 which would be the right number to compare to.

I have that at 145, myself...  

Ugh I can't count right at all .
For me the 1-2" scatter changes the hits from 3-4 to 1-2 due to the size of squads and placement. Also what probably helps cause this is the fact that the guys I go against are some of the smarter players and better strategist that play the game.

Thor665 wrote:

Knights' limited footslogging objective support and then whipping around to help me threaten multiple facings at the same time - which is how you kill Knights.

Knights have the mobility of a vehicle that moves 12" a turn. If the knight player is smart he will be able to force the flyer to waste a turn getting into position at least 1 turn out of the potential 4 you are in.

Thor665 wrote:

Orks, functionally, also lack good anti-air, they just get by because snapfiring isn't really a bother to them. I would say Sisters of Battle are also along the DE level for anti-air. Daemons also, functionally, are bad at anti-air insomuch as they only have one unit that can really do it...they get by because the winged daemon prince is an otherwise brilliant fething unit they'd take anyway. I also would dare say Eldar suck at it also, as the Crimson Hunter really isn't a good value

Orks have the tracta beam which is one of the best anti-air in the game (grounding on a 5+ i think, flyers crash and burn on a 1-3 I think it has been a while). Daemons have soulgrinder and flying daemon princes. Why would you say the crimson hunter isn't a good value, 4 S8 shots for 160 points with vector dancer to make you able to hit just about any target?

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

For me the 1-2" scatter changes the hits from 3-4 to 1-2 due to the size of squads and placement. Also what probably helps cause this is the fact that the guys I go against are some of the smarter players and better strategist that play the game.

They are certainly doing some interesting things.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Knights have the mobility of a vehicle that moves 12" a turn. If the knight player is smart he will be able to force the flyer to waste a turn getting into position at least 1 turn out of the potential 4 you are in.

If the flyer was alone that would be a problem - if I can force the Knights to move to break Adamantine or to move as a unit to avoid a flyer I probably would count that as a win - depending on the board layout, natch, but I suspect it would be a win. It ususally is. Also, usually the Knights don't break Adamantine or run around to stop fliers, as I have enough other threats they're sweating.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Orks have the tracta beam which is one of the best anti-air in the game (grounding on a 5+ i think, flyers crash and burn on a 1-3 I think it has been a while).

Has that made the jump from Epic or are you talking the liftadroppa?

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Why would you say the crimson hunter isn't a good value, 4 S8 shots for 160 points with vector dancer to make you able to hit just about any target?

I say it's not a good value because it isn't. If 4 Str 8 shots at 160 is amazing then 3 at 125 for the Ravager is mindblowing, and I don't think that's the case. The Crimson Hunter is an okay air support unit that is deathly fragile to basically all other flyers - I play Eldar and Dark Eldar and I avoid the thing because it's not functional at doing what it is supposed to do (dogfight) and isn't a value enough to replace any of my non-flying anti-mech options (like Ravagers or Serpents). So at that point, what's the point? I don't see it, myself.

Thor665 wrote:

Has that made the jump from Epic or are you talking the liftadroppa?

Sorry I miss spelled the gun, it is in the ork codex as heavy support. Traktor-Kannon is S8 AP3 Skyfire and automatically immobilizes fliers when at least glancing them. FMC get -3 to their grounding check.

Thor665 wrote:

If 4 Str 8 shots at 160 is amazing then 3 at 125 for the Ravager is mindblowing, and I don't think that's the case.

If those 3 shots had skyfire they would be mindblowing. Yes it is fragile but the same reasoning you used on the survivability of the fighter applies to the hunter. Yes the fighter can take out mass infantry but the hunter is probably the best anti flyer vehicle in the game (reroll pen against flyers) and the mobility with vector dancer allows you to be able to see your target or at least a good target every turn you are on. 4 shots, 2-3 hits, reroll pen means 2-3 glances or pens a turn on something that Ravagers will hit on 6's and our flyers will get 1 glance or pen if lucky. Plus the maneuverability to get into side and rear armour on knights if that is a concern.

Thor665 wrote:

if I can force the Knights to move to break Adamantine or to move as a unit to avoid a flyer I probably would count that as a win - depending on the board layout, natch, but I suspect it would be a win. It ususally is. Also, usually the Knights don't break Adamantine or run around to stop fliers, as I have enough other threats they're sweating.

How do you make knights sweat? I've gone against it a couple of times and they are nail-bitters (except when I tabled him with the 5th edition book).

The Razorwing is not bad at all.

It has AV 10 but it is also a flyer, which doesnt make it less survivable than any other vehicle in our army,  but far more durable. If you jink you can get a 4+ or even a 3+, leave the board in your turn and the next one you are still alive and still ready to shoot at full BS, compared to a non-flyer (EDIT: as they could shoot you the next turn also). Furthermore, your enemy is sacrificing his non-AA units BS to shoot at it, which technically reduces the amount of shots (translated to hits) that your army recieves. From the DE point of view, this is gold. This applies to the voidraven too. (EDIT: this means that even jinking you gain something by staying on the board, by giving your other exposed vehicles more chances to survive).

Offensively, the Razorwing offers you other benefits compared to ground units. First, our army is full of poison and dark lances, but poison has no effect on vehicles and is less efective against T3 when compared to bolters, while lances are a bad investment too against all infantry except for TEQs and multi-wound models. The stock missiles are S6, the CW eldar tool to reliably deal with low AVs and almost all thoughness values. Also AP:4 which evaporates all infantry worse than MEQs. Oh and a quick button to destroy swarms without wasting splinter fire.
If you get the dissies, you'll get a boost against MEQ and TEQs, making the RW a good all-rounder in the field of anti-infantry and even hurting AV 10 effectively (rear-armour shots are almost always available and not that dangerous for flyers). If you take Dark lances you gain 2 anti tank shots with boosted movement and better potential to negate cover, and at the same time you get a better chance against flyers without sacrificing offensive potential against other kinds of units, which is always good.

This is why I see the RW as a very good competitive unit in our book. But maybe is because I don't compare it from other armies perspective.


Sorry for the text wall.
Just my humble opinion!

If you're needing skyfire and don't mind using apoc formations in normal games- Valedor has a Storm of Blades formation that can give Trueborn, Warriors (and Venoms/Raiders attached to them), Reavers and Scourges skyfire, and any Raiders with passengers can shoot then flat out (Dark Lances here).

Get three razorwings and make them all mini-voidravens, with ability to deal vector strikes at d3 s8 ap3 (sadly cannot affect vehicles)

Pre-warning as I answer this, i am drunk.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Sorry I miss spelled the gun, it is in the ork codex as heavy support. Traktor-Kannon is S8 AP3 Skyfire and automatically immobilizes fliers when at least glancing them. FMC get -3 to their grounding check.

That doesn't actually seem that good as a 30 point BS 3 artillery piece. You really need to drop 90 into it to be fairly sure of a hit, and that doesn't count jink, and even with a hit it's still about a 50/50 to glance/pen most flyers. Eh, if that's a big thing in your area it's a thing - it's not a big thing here. At all.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Yes it is fragile but the same reasoning you used on the survivability of the fighter applies to the hunter.

Agreed.
But the fighter sorts its value on Turn 1, everything else is gravy. Not so with the CH.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

the hunter is probably the best anti flyer vehicle in the game

I disagree with this.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

How do you make knights sweat? I've gone against it a couple of times and they are nail-bitters (except when I tabled him with the 5th edition book).

My usual tourney build involves an Eldar detachment, Raiders, Ravagers, and Razors. I generally drop Firedragons in behind while getting lance into 2-3 vectors in front/side. Generally the knight will toss shields to the back, which doesn't matter because the Fire Dragons punch through with weight of hits, and the lances do cleanup on the front. Pop a Knight or two and the rest come crumbling down. Massed lances is a brilliant solution and the Razor adds to that after helping me wipe infantry.

Thor665 wrote:

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

the hunter is probably the best anti flyer vehicle in the game

I disagree with this.

As do I. There are plenty of options out there, but the Vendetta (I think, often get it mixed up with the valkyrie - I mean the one with three twin lascannons) and Storm Raven are the two flyers that immediately sprang to mind, heavily armoured and with lots of nasty guns. Three twin linked lascannons is likely to hurt almost anything it fires at, even at BS3, and the twin multi melta and twin lascannons of the storm raven, backed up by hurricane bolters, should not leave the opposition with much of a hull left (That or you've forced them to evade, in which case - win).

I'd nominate the Storm Wolf and Fire Raptor as the best fliers. The former has AV12 all round and meltas don't roll an extra dice. For weapons, it has PotMS, 2 TL multi-meltas a TL Lascannon and a TL Hellfrost Cannon. On top of that, it's an assault vehicle with 16 transport capacity.

The Fire Raptor, meanwhile, is also AV12 and can put out 7 S6 AP3 shots, 8 S7 AP4 shots (possibly with Rending, IIRC), and has 4 pie-plate missiles that ignore cover. I believe it can also shoot 3 different targets. Oh, and it has +1BS when shooting at ground units.

I missed the Storm Wolf, only played it once and I neutralised it pretty well (three twin linked lascannons on a skyfire nexus with tank hunter will do that for you). I wasn't thinking of forgeworld stuff either, since we don't tend to use much forgeworld at our club.

I second fire dragons for singlehandedly wrecking imperial knights. It's not even about them having the shots to punch through the save. I deepstrike or move mine down along the line of their armor facings and then after they pick which side to shield I battlefocus to run and shoot the other side. I haven't had them fail in killing one yet.

For the anti air argument though, I do love the crimson skyhunter for shooting down flying vehicles. The combination of BS5, vector dancer to hit rear armor, and tank hunters against flyers has caused mine to shoot down more than a few heldrakes and I consider them one of the toughest flying vehicles out there.

I haven't used a voidraven bomber yet, but I did just buy one. I consistently bring a pair of razorwings (oftentimes with dissies but sometimes with lances) and they consistently earn their points back though (and often closer to double their worth). I like dissie loadouts for the ability to fire two missiles and 6 str 5 ap2 shots into a unit and then still repeat that damage again the next turn. Being only 130 points is great too.

Thor665 wrote:

That doesn't actually seem that good as a 30 point BS 3 artillery piece. You really need to drop 90 into it to be fairly sure of a hit, and that doesn't count jink, and even with a hit it's still about a 50/50 to glance/pen most flyers. Eh, if that's a big thing in your area it's a thing - it's not a big thing here. At all.

Yes that's true but for bs3 in the ork codex it is pretty nice. My point is that the ork codex has better anti flyer than anything in our book.

Thor665 wrote:

But the fighter sorts its value on Turn 1, everything else is gravy. Not so with the CH.

If the CH shoots down a Storm Raven with troops the turn it comes in (which is entirely possible and feasible if they chose not to jink) the CH gets 2x's its points back. Killing a heldrake will get it's points back and save your army from multiple turns of flaming. Heck killing a StormTalon will save some of your troops while allowing your vehicles to shoot at viable ground targets.

Thor665 wrote:

My usual tourney build involves an Eldar detachment, Raiders, Ravagers, and Razors. I generally drop Firedragons in behind while getting lance into 2-3 vectors in front/side. Generally the knight will toss shields to the back, which doesn't matter because the Fire Dragons punch through with weight of hits, and the lances do cleanup on the front.

Okay so you run both Eldars. Do you normally have 1-2 waveserpents, lots of ravagers, raiders, and razors?

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

My point is that the ork codex has better anti flyer than anything in our book.

I can agree with that, but to my mind the reason Orks are good is because they are BS 2 who hit via weight of shots - so the snapfire effect doesn't mess with them nearly as much as it does other armies.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

If the CH shoots down a Storm Raven with troops the turn it comes in (which is entirely possible and feasible if they chose not to jink) the CH gets 2x's its points back. Killing a heldrake will get it's points back and save your army from multiple turns of flaming. Heck killing a StormTalon will save some of your troops while allowing your vehicles to shoot at viable ground targets.

I think A CH would struggle to accomplish either of those things.
Also, both of those tend to presume going second or choosing to run an Autarch in your list - or, frankly, both. The Razor just needs infantry to mulch, at a lower investment.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Okay so you run both Eldars.

I do sometimes. Not always, sort of depends on the rules for the tournament.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

Do you normally have 1-2 waveserpents, lots of ravagers, raiders, and razors?

No.
Usually I run no Wave Serpents at all. In fact, I don't think I ever have run them with DE primary.
I do run Ravagers, Raiders, and Razors though.

My razorwing almost always makes its points back the turn it comes on the board, and generally is very supportive the rest of the game.

Thor665 wrote:

I think A CH would struggle to accomplish either of those things.
Also, both of those tend to presume going second or choosing to run an Autarch in your list - or, frankly, both. The Razor just needs infantry to mulch, at a lower investment.

hitting on 3's 2-3 hits wound on 4's rerolling failed to wounds. If you get 3 hits and they dont jink they have a 50 50 of being dead or alive. 2 then it depends on the pen rolls.

Thor665 wrote:

No.
Usually I run no Wave Serpents at all. In fact, I don't think I ever have run them with DE primary.
I do run Ravagers, Raiders, and Razors though.

So you toss the fire dragons into a raider by themselves?

Trystis wrote:

My razorwing almost always makes its points back the turn it comes on the board, and generally is very supportive the rest of the game.

I wish I could say the same for mine.

The Shredder wrote:

Trystis wrote:

My razorwing almost always makes its points back the turn it comes on the board, and generally is very supportive the rest of the game.

I wish I could say the same for mine.

Same here. I almost always play against MEQ or tougher opposition who will make good use of cover. Firing all 4 missiles into such targets rarely results in more than 3 or 4 casualties and often less.

If I played more against Orks, non-Nidzilla Nids, IG etc then I might have a different opinion but, for me, the DE flyers are simply not worth it.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Same here. I almost always play against MEQ or tougher opposition who will make good use of cover. Firing all 4 missiles into such targets rarely results in more than 3 or 4 casualties and often less.

In my last game, the Razorwing arrived and fired 2 missiles and 2 Dark Lances at a unit of 8 marines in cover. It killed a single marine.

Then it got shot out of the sky by 3 Grav-Centurions.

That's the downside in this metta (at least where I am). The one guy that beat me had 3 wraith knights 2 wave serpents and 2 crimson hunters. The 2 hunters destroyed 5-6 vehicles just because I don't have anti air in a pure DE list.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

That's the downside in this metta (at least where I am). The one guy that beat me had 3 wraith knights 2 wave serpents and 2 crimson hunters. The 2 hunters destroyed 5-6 vehicles just because I don't have anti air in a pure DE list.

Yeah that does kinda suck. There isn't a lot we can do vs a list like I think. The flier works well for me because infantry blobs are common, but the razorwing won't be much help against that list. I would just go for MSU in that meta. I wouldn't even put my troops into the transports to just make as many targets as possible. Jink or go to ground when possible to make the small units as durable as possible. Infantry in cover going to ground with FnP are surprisingly durable even in small squads.

Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:

That's the downside in this metta (at least where I am). The one guy that beat me had 3 wraith knights 2 wave serpents and 2 crimson hunters. The 2 hunters destroyed 5-6 vehicles just because I don't have anti air in a pure DE list.

I would love to play against Eldar list like that. Those WK's are 720pts of dead weight that can be easily killed. And only 2 Serpents! Those 2 fliers should not get more than 2-3 turns of shooting through the game.

Yes it was a great opportunity! except it was kill points and he went first. I toyed with the idea of null deployment but decided against it and I proceeded to lose 4 vehicles turn 1 vs his 2 wraith knights. Next turn both his flyers came on and I lost another 3 vehicles to his 1 wraith knight. This kept going until I had 1-2 vehicles left and he won the kill points 33-15 (it was a weird kill point mission). The 4 turns they were on they killed 6 vehicles worth about 390 points while I could do nothing against them. He couldnt fail his 3+ jinks.

I personally am fond of the flyers aesthetically, but when it comes to game efffectiveness the Razorwing is a significantly better flyer than the Voidraven.

The main primary reason is for the cost of an additional 10 points, you get essentially an utility unit, which is something that DE rarely get. Lances and missiles tend to harm almost everything in the game, barring gargantuan creatures or super heavy (but that is why we have the other parts of our army). The missiles also solves an issue we have with hordes, and our list is better off with it.

Sure, some people will say that what about the anti-air but the fact still remains that most flyers do not have a turret or have a single turret at most. Our speed generally negates those advantages and go in deep to prevent their flyers from being effective for at least a turn or two. For Flying MCs, I generally have venoms for those kinds of nonsense, so it is not too great of an issue most of the time.

The second and perhaps the most important point for me is that Razorwing Jetfighters improves upon our ground game. The thing I noticed about DE is that the stronger your ground game and the more powerful the offense, the more likely you are to win the battle. By adding on the Razorwings on that formula, the second turn of the game tends to be more decisive than before due to the 'fireworks' that they produce.

A lot of players in my area have learned to fear the Razorwing Fighter alongside the Venoms whenever I play as they are generally worried that those fighters will slay their Obsec units in one breath or at least weaken them for my other elements to kill it off. In this capacity, my flyers also acted as fire magnets as all the high strength weaponry are often directed to them immediately even though the flyer usually have fired all their missiles.

Keep in mind that in my meta (upper west coast US) we see a large number of flyrant lists and CD flying circus...along with the other big lists.

I find that no DE list is a list without two. You can come on and drop eight large templates like a boss, then zoom off after you jink. The bomber is more situational, but when you need it, you need it. One of our worst match ups is Militarum. That bomb is pretty helpfull.

Hannibal.Lictor wrote:

I find that no DE list is a list without two. You can come on and drop eight large templates like a boss, then zoom off after you jink. The bomber is more situational, but when you need it, you need it. One of our worst match ups is Militarum.  That bomb is pretty helpfull.

I refuse to bring DE flyers in my competitive build because they aren't a part of an A list or very good B list. I am constantly in the final round (normally 3-4 round tournaments) with no losses and it is always a toss up that last round and our flyers would not have helped in any of these tournaments they would have hurt me.