BR2: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Serpent Spam - 1250pts

The Shredder wrote:

I'll bear that in mind if I ever use a slow, tough list.

You need the strategic mobility of deep-strike/null deployment though to make it work. If you don't have that you will be in trouble if all the objectives are in your opponents deployment zone and you have to spend X turns slugging across the table to get there.

The Shredder wrote:

To be fair, though, many armies don't have Manticore-esque firepower (we certainly don't).

I am curious, though, how would you play this list against mech-IG?

Would you deep-strike as close to his vehicles as possible and dare him to fire his blasts at you?

Pretty much, at least that's my thoughts initially. Might change when I actually play that match up though. A good guard player will probably set up some sort of screen of fodder to block my grotesques from deep-striking close, whilst at the same time creating space to prevent the blasts scattering back onto himself, combined with a divination psyker with prescience and things won't be easy that's for sure.

The Shredder wrote:

I think you mean "were", Venom Blades are now no cheaper than Scissorhands.  

Haha! I completely missed that they have doubled in price...

On another note here's the new list I'm thinking of trying out next game:

HQ
Haemonculus, web way portal
Haemonculus, web way portal

ELITE
10 Grotesques, aberration
10 Grotesques, aberration

DARK ARTISAN
1 Haemonculus (warlord)
1 Cronos, spirite probe
1 Talos, splinter cannons, chain flails

Total: 1250 points

Thoughts?

You traded damage potential for better endurance in the talos unit IMO. But that should make the unit a better home objective camper ... maybe ... but I would think, you loose a bit of threat too.

Personally I'd be inclined to ignore it unless I need the obj. they're sitting on, as they can't do much on their own.

A different thing is the additional character ... making a few tactical objectives easier to achieve (maybe), I'd rather choose to charge and challenge the DA haemy and not a haemy with 10 Grots at his side.

But after all that I said, I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with such a list, so don't take my comments as valid improvements

Are the Aberrations worth it without Scissorhands? Just wondering if something like a Vexator Mask on the DA Haemonculus would be more useful.

Other than that, it looks fine (just a shame you can't deep strike all 3 squads).

While I'm loving this series so far, I have a feeling that in addition to the two hard matchups you already mentioned, some good old traditional tau should be able to give you a tough matchup.

Also I can't help but feel that you've found a points level for which this idea works, and any higher and it will all slowly start to crumble away rather quickly. Feel free to prove me wrong though

Omega1907 wrote:

You traded damage potential for better endurance in the talos unit IMO. But that should make the unit a better home objective camper ... maybe ... but I would think, you loose a bit of threat too.

Personally I'd be inclined to ignore it unless I need the obj. they're sitting on, as they can't do much on their own.

I'm hopping that the massive boost in resilience will allow me to be more aggressive, and whilst I lose some ranged killing power initiative 5 is a big boost making them more of a melee threat. Not to mention if I make that haemonculus my warlord, my opponent is more likely to come to me. At least in theory.

Omega1907 wrote:

A different thing is the additional character ... making a few tactical objectives easier to achieve (maybe), I'd rather choose to charge and challenge the DA haemy and not a haemy with 10 Grots at his side.

True, but at initiative 5 a bunch of AP2 high strength attacks, charging them is risky, and the haemi can just refuse the challenge. I'm going to give it a go, see how it plays out.

The Shredder wrote:

Are the Aberrations worth it without Scissorhands? Just wondering if something like a Vexator Mask on the DA Haemonculus would be more useful.

Unfortunately, I have already dropped the scissor hands on the aberrations, otherwise I definetly would have tried to squeeze a vexator mask in there.

The Shredder wrote:

Other than that, it looks fine (just a shame you can't deep strike all 3 squads).

I'm actually not a fan of complete null deployment as then your opponent just castles up and prepares for you, they have no incentive to move out. Having something on the table, encourages them to do something during their turn.

DimmyK wrote:

While I'm loving this series so far, I have a feeling that in addition to the two hard matchups you already mentioned, some good old traditional tau should be able to give you a tough matchup.

I'm thinking Tau would be one of the easier matchups for this list (at least traditional gunline tau), interceptor doesn't really scare me nor does supporting fire (as multicharges are what this list is designed for). Though I might be wrong, either way Tau is an army I always thoroughly enjoy trying to dismantle win or lose.

DimmyK wrote:

Also I can't help but feel that you've found a points level for which this idea works, and any higher and it will all slowly start to crumble away rather quickly. Feel free to prove me wrong though

Actually I would expect the list to be stronger in higher point games. They open up options like the corpsthief claw, a third unit of grotesques, more talos, etc. The larger my opponents army is the less space they have to manoeuvre and the easier it is to use their size against them. The same goes for this army, the larger its footprint the more mobility it denies my opponent making multicharges and assault easier. A crowded table is something I feel this army could really leverage. Though I haven't played any 1500 point games with this list yet, I have had quite some success running the two large units of grots in crazy brawl mulitplayer 2000-3000 point games. So I'm quite optimistic.

Mushkilla wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

Are the Aberrations worth it without Scissorhands? Just wondering if something like a Vexator Mask on the DA Haemonculus would be more useful.

Unfortunately, I have already dropped the scissor hands on the aberrations, otherwise I definetly would have tried to squeeze a vexator mask in there.

I was actually wondering about you dropping the Aberrations themselves.

Without Scissorhands, you're paying 10pts for 1 extra attack. Is it worth it?

Especially since they're not protecting any useful combat characters from challenges.

GJ! Keep them coming!

PS: I would drop the Abs all together too, without them and without the Scissor hands thats 20pts more you have, so a total of 40pts!!!.

With no Scissor hands on Haemi's its another 20pts.

You can do alot with 60pts.

Mushkilla wrote:

Actually I would expect the list to be stronger in higher point games. They open up options like the corpsthief claw, a third unit of grotesques, more talos, etc. The larger my opponents army is the less space they have to manoeuvre and the easier it is to use their size against them. The same goes for this army, the larger its footprint the more mobility it denies my opponent making multicharges and assault easier. A crowded table is something I feel this army could really leverage. Though I haven't played any 1500 point games with this list yet, I have had quite some success running the two large units of grots in crazy brawl mulitplayer 2000-3000 point games. So I'm quite optimistic. Very Happy

Yes but so do the chances of you facing something that can just charge you after your deep strike and tie up your whole army for the entire game . It also could give you less space to deepstrike into your signature objective holding formation (i.e. if your opponent has cannily spread their whole army over a set of four objectives)

With tau, the increase in points level sees an increase in firepower that is greater than the increase in bodies that you seem to be able to achieve. Especially once you add in the ignores cover, they're likely to be doing a fair number to your grotesques. I mean obviously this isn't really comparable, but i've seen my 1850 pt tau list kill 50 shrouded guardsmen + tanking characters easily over two turns (while also having shots to spare for some tanks). and at the same time i'd still have some disposable obsec maelstrom units to get in your way

imo one thing you almost certainly shouldn't do dilute your main strength in terms of having this compact list, but you know this better than me anyway

The Shredder wrote:

I was actually wondering about you dropping the Aberrations themselves.

Without Scissorhands, you're paying 10pts for 1 extra attack. Is it worth it?

Especially since they're not protecting any useful combat characters from challenges.

I considered that, but challenges are still a great option to have, the aberration is still a brute with a flesh gauntlet, so can scare most squad leaders into submission, T5 also means he isn't scared of power fists so he adds options for forcing them out of the fight. Removing leadership can be important for dealing with chaff that charges you (you really want to destroy them in one turn). So in the end I felt they were worth keeping. Also part of me really wants to give them agonisers...

amishprn86 wrote:

I would drop the Abs all together too, without them and without the Scissor hands thats 20pts more you have, so a total of 40pts!!!.

With no Scissor hands on Haemi's its another 20pts.

I have already dropped all the scissor hands from the list, that's how I managed to squeeze in the Dark Artisan.

DimmyK wrote:

Yes but so do the chances of you facing something that can just charge you after your deep strike and tie up your whole army for the entire game .

Outside of allies I don't really see what a Tau army has that can tie up that many grotesques (even after casualties from shooting). Anything with 10 or more models will just evaporate to S5 re-rolling to wound and rampage (assuming the grotesques have taken some casualties). I guess riptides maybe? But they aren't fearless, are only leadership 9 so if they lose combat they will be testing at LD7 at the highest (due to -1 from freakish spectacle).

If allies? Which ones? Also wouldn't that dilute your fire power?

DimmyK wrote:

It also could give you less space to deepstrike into your signature objective holding formation (i.e. if your opponent has cannily spread their whole army over a set of four objectives)

I don't have to land in it, if my opponents are on it determined to hold it, then their force will be bunched up which is what a assault army like this one wants, particularly against armies like Tau and Guard. Interestingly there's also a 50% chance for me to be able to decide that those 4 objectives should be in my deployment zone (if I get to pick table sides).

DimmyK wrote:

With tau, the increase in points level sees an increase in firepower that is greater than the increase in bodies that you seem to be able to achieve. Especially once you add in the ignores cover, they're likely to be doing a fair number to your grotesques.

Do you have any examples of the sort of lists you run? My knowledge on Tau isn't quite as up to date as it used to be (other than fire support cadres every where), so I'm quite curious what sort of lists are running around.

DimmyK wrote:

imo one thing you almost certainly shouldn't do dilute your main strength in terms of having this compact list

The list will still be pretty compact, large units of grotesques are kind of like accordions. They can be compact when they need to be.

Adding an extra unit of grotesques, makes it easier to overwhelm an opponent, adds a lot of resilience, and allows for more reliable pincer movements. At least that's what I would expect, it might not play out that way.

DimmyK wrote:

but you know this better than me anyway

I don't believe that! One of the reasons I put these reports up is it lets me draw on a vast pool of experience and as a result mature the list/playstyle a lot more quickly. The analysis and feedback I have had for this report is like having 2-3 extra games against that list. It also really helps highlight potential flaws and lets people pool in their experience with other armies (eg: your experience with Tau). I'm sure I'm grosly underestimating Tau too, so keep feedback coming!

Sorry to take things backwards a bit, only just read the report - would you say that the biggest drawback with your opponent's list is that his wraithknight isn't actually that scary? It's an expensive option but I'd have thought the suncannon and a scatter laser was almost mandatory on a single wraithknight - three twin linked blasts at S6 seems much more preferable to two single S10 shots to my mind, especially when you've got fire dragons and the wraithknight's combat attacks to deal with armour.

I do really like the way you write your lists though Mush, it's something I try to advocate as much as possible, picking a theme and a way of playing and being better at it than anything else in the game. Sadly a lot of units don't have that potential but you sure can spot 'em!

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Sorry to take things backwards a bit, only just read the report - would you say that the biggest drawback with your opponent's list is that his wraithknight isn't actually that scary?

I think the wraith cannons were pretty scary against my grotesques, the 4+ cover from the scatter field was my saving grace. As Vasara mentioned if he had charged in earlier (before I got eternal warrior), and not been so cautious because of the flesh gauntlets he might have got more out of him with 4-5 S10 hits in close combat. Especially with prescience and re-roll to hit.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

It's an expensive option but I'd have thought the suncannon and a scatter laser was almost mandatory on a single wraithknight - three twin linked blasts at S6 seems much more preferable to two single S10 shots to my mind, especially when you've got fire dragons and the wraithknight's combat attacks to deal with armour.

I haven't actually seen anything other than the dual wraith cannon load out in my area. Two S10 shots at 36" in an army that has guide and prescience is quite a nice commodity to have. That being said I don't play eldar and haven't seen the sun-cannon in action. Against my list I would have preferred to play against the sun cannon variety (as despite the blasts it doesn't causing more hits, it doesn't cause instant death, so it's only wounding on 3s and I get my 5+ FNP in addition to cover), though I can imagine they are pretty brutal against marine/terminator lists.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I do really like the way you write your lists though Mush, it's something I try to advocate as much as possible, picking a theme and a way of playing and being better at it than anything else in the game. Sadly a lot of units don't have that potential but you sure can spot 'em!

Thanks! Initially my theme wasn't to run massed grotesques, I just wanted to run a Dark Eldar assault army that didn't have any vehicles and preferably a low model count (so it could fit in a shoe box). Which nicely tailed into running a thematic coven list, which limits me somewhat to grotesques and pain engines. I try to start with how I want the list to play in simple high level terms (assault/shooting/both, horde/elite, fast/slow, etc) and work down from there.

Have you thought about some shooting if you expand to a higher cost?

I'd suggest taking a Grotesquerie with ten in each squad. Keep the Haemonculus from the formation with WWP and Pump in case you get Fleet, then add an Archon with Shadow Field, Haywire Grenades and a WWP. The Archon would be part of a DE combined arms detachment. The troops could be two units of five wyches with a hekatrix with Haywire Grenades and a venom with dual Splinter Cannons. I'd then take two flyers, probably razorwings or a razorwing and a voidraven. Replace the DA with a Talos and Cronos. That should be about 1850 maybe less.

With this you have an answer to Knights with the Haywire, a tank in the Archon to protect against Force, D or s10 and also massed small arms fire like fire warrior blobs. The flyers are also impervious to Knights, D and massed fire while other armies that specilaize in anti-flyer such as Guard and Tau would need to prioritize between air and tough ground targets. Flyers can also be good for getting across the board to take objectives if your army lacks mobility. Their missiles can target pathfinders and the like from outside their 36" range. Venoms can perform a similar function, but would need to be kept out of range or LOS for much of the game.

I also find that the objec secure wyches are great at tying up tough close combat units like GK and contesting them. For this reason they become a shooting target priority, but again you have three elements to this army that your opponent will need to think carefully about shooting in a prioritized order.

I would always roll on the strategic table: conquerer of cities helps the grots in ruins and if your vehichles are deep striking into terrain as well with mtc, the infiltration one will help get the talos/cronos across the board, the reserves one always helps, night fighting ditto, pinning etc.

The bonus for the grotesquerie then becomes a free buff in this scenario and Grotesques with T6 benefit from their FNP against S10 (4+ if Cronos is nearby), making for a very tough, even by Decurion Wraith standards, unit. The other rolls can be equally useful, especially S6 against massed light vehichles in assault.

Furthermore, when Deep striking Grots I like to include a few (3 or 4) Liquefiers as this gives me an easy way to take out pathfinders or guard units in cover, while the potential for ap 1 or 2 overwatch can help dissuade terminators from assaulting, giving me an extra turn of shooting or a free assault.

The goal with this army would be to reserve as much as possible except the Talos and Cronos and then hit the enemy with a Beta strike and present him/her with too many tough and/or fast elements for him/her to deal with in an objective based game. The ObjecSecured Wyches are just icing on the cake because they are more effective in assault situations then other types of ObjecSecured units because of their 4++ and ability to hurt tanks and walkers (don't forget plasma grenades), giving DE a half way decent chance against walker or vehichle heavy armies and a way to contest said units. The DE answer to massed vehichle spam is not the S7 that armies, such as Eldar or Tau have, but rather assault. Of course the Venoms would need to be hidden for a lot of the game.

I believe that the above army would have enough variety to challenge a variety of opponents. What do you think?

Welcome to The Dark City Sulmo!

Sulmo wrote:

Have you thought about some shooting if you expand to a higher cost?

Yes but mainly in the form of Talos armed with splinter cannons.

Sulmo wrote:

With this you have an answer to Knights with the Haywire

The thing is having 1-2 models with haywire grenades is not an answer to knights, as it take far to long to kill them. The same goes for Dark lances, it takes on average 37 dark lance/blaster shots to destroy an imperial knight if your hitting the shielded facing. Same with haywire it takes on average about 22 haywire shots. By not having Dark Lances/Haywire I’m not really much worse off than a conventional Dark Eldar list against imperial knights.

Sulmo wrote:

... a tank in the Archon to protect against Force, D or s10 and also massed small arms fire like fire warrior blobs.

That’s a nice suggestion, something I used to do in 6th edition. That being said it means I have to spend a load of points on venoms/warriors/wyches as compulsory troops which I don’t want to do as it dilutes a lot of the overall strengths of the list in exchange for a small advantage against grey knights. I feel I’ll have to play a few games against grey knights before I change the list to see how challenging the match up is.

Sulmo wrote:

Flyers can also be good for getting across the board to take objectives if your army lacks mobility.

Flyers can’t score/contest objectives sadly.

Sulmo wrote:

I also find that the objec secure wyches are great at tying up tough close combat units like GK and contesting them. For this reason they become a shooting target priority, but again you have three elements to this army that your opponent will need to think carefully about shooting in a prioritized order.

The problem with adding softer elements to the list, is that they become obvious targets, and make it easy for my opponent to score tactical objectives (one of the advantages of the current list is that it makes this very hard for them to do).

Sulmo wrote:

I would always roll on the strategic table: conquerer of cities helps the grots in ruins and if your vehichles are deep striking into terrain as well with mtc, the infiltration one will help get the talos/cronos across the board, the reserves one always helps, night fighting ditto, pinning etc.

I have considered rolling on strategic, however without a re-roll from CAD, it’s risky as there are only two rolls i’m interested in (re-roll reserves and infiltrate). Nightfight and pinning are first turn affects, so I don’t really care for them as most of my army is in reserve and doesn’t come into play until turn 2. Defender of cities is nice, but only when you have a lot of ruins on the board. I find a lot of the other tables more useful (command and tactical in particular).

Sulmo wrote:

The bonus for the grotesquerie then becomes a free buff in this scenario and Grotesques with T6 benefit from their FNP against S10 (4+ if Cronos is nearby), making for a very tough, even by Decurion Wraith standards, unit. The other rolls can be equally useful, especially S6 against massed light vehichles in assault.

But it’s not free, as I’m paying for two troop choices I don’t need.

Sulmo wrote:

Furthermore, when Deep striking Grots I like to include a few (3 or 4) Liquefiers as this gives me an easy way to take out pathfinders or guard units in cover, while the potential for ap 1 or 2 overwatch can help dissuade terminators from assaulting, giving me an extra turn of shooting or a free assault.

I find I almost always run on the turn I deep strike it’s crucial for trapping my opponent and setting up multi-charges. Liquifiers are expensive and at S3 what you get is very unreliable. The models equipped with liquifiers also need to be in the right position at the right time, not always possible with such large units. Finally the gortesques equipped with liquifiers lose an attack, as they no longer have two close combat weapons.

Sulmo wrote:

... I believe that the above army would have enough variety to challenge a variety of opponents. What do you think?

I appreciate the feedback, but I feel your proposed list would dilute the core strengths and ideas behind this list. As well as break my main restriction of not fielding any vehicles.

I was under the impression that discarded Maelstrom objectives went back into the deck & thus could be drawn again. I thought the only sure-fire way to eliminate an objective was to score it?

clever handle wrote:

I was under the impression that discarded Maelstrom objectives went back into the deck & thus could be drawn again.  I thought the only sure-fire way to eliminate an objective was to score it?

Nope they are out of the game. It int the Tactical Objectives section, under Discarding Tactical Objective.

40k rule book wrote:

Discarded Tactical Objectives cease being Active and you cannot generate or achieve these objectives for the remainder of the game.

Making use of your one discard a turn is a really important aspect to playing the maelstrom missions in my experience. As it's a sure fire way of putting a card out of the game. There's no down side either, seeing as you draw a replacement card at the start of the next turn.

Good points there. What would you add to a larger list?

The Corpsethief could be an awesome addition to it, particularly if your warlord is the haemonculus in the DA, but would it still not suffer against Knights? The Corpsethief would need to assault and when it destroys a Knight the resultant explosion could kill the whole squad.

Against GK force weapons would definitely be an issue.

Sulmo wrote:

Good points there. What would you add to a larger list?

Honestly not quite sure. I need to get at least 7-8 more games in at this point level against a variety of opposing lists before I think about expanding (Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Sky Blight, Tau, etc).

Sulmo wrote:

The Corpsethief could be an awesome addition to it...

Corpsethief is definitely something I want to try when I expand to higher point games.

Sulmo wrote:

... but would it still not suffer against Knights? The Corpsethief would need to assault and when it destroys a Knight the resultant explosion could kill the whole squad.

That's a very good point and partly why I think killing an Imperial Knight is not an option. Tying one up for the whole game seems much safer and a large unit of grotesques should be able to do that.

Sulmo wrote:

Against GK force weapons would definitely be an issue.

Grey Knights are going to be a tough matchup, but I'm hopeful as I also play Grey Knights so should be able to exploit a lot of their weaknesses. I won't really find out until I play that matchup though.

Gk's I think would be the hardest only b.c of Force weapons and Storms shields.

amishprn86 wrote:

Gk's I think would be the hardest only b.c of Force weapons and Storms shields.

I think they only have one SS in their entire army (albiet held by Draigo).

But, their 2+ saves and DKs with 2+ saves could be a pain. As could their various psychic powers.

It's a battle I'd really like to see. As it stands, GKs just feel like an auto-lose for me if I use too many Coven units, so I'd love to see how a much better player handles them with nothing but grotesques and pain engines.

The Shredder wrote:

t's a battle I'd really like to see. As it stands, GKs just feel like an auto-lose for me if I use too many Coven units, so I'd love to see how a much better player handles them with nothing but grotesques and pain engines.

Well you are in luck my nest game is against Grey Knights! Here’s my opponents list:

click to see list:

Not sure how I’m going to come even close to winning this one.

Mushkilla wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

t's a battle I'd really like to see. As it stands, GKs just feel like an auto-lose for me if I use too many Coven units, so I'd love to see how a much better player handles them with nothing but grotesques and pain engines.

Well you are in luck my nest game is against Grey Knights! Here’s my opponents list:

click to see list:

Well that looks unpleasant.

The only crumb of comfort I can offer is that he doesn't have anything that can strike before DA. That's something... right?

Mushkilla wrote:

Not sure how I’m going to come even close to winning this one.

Well, honestly, that's what I thought when you took on serpent-spam, and you certainly proved me wrong there.

I wish you the best of luck.

The Shredder wrote:

Well that looks unpleasant.

At least it doesn't have psylencers!

The Shredder wrote:

The only crumb of comfort I can offer is that he doesn't have anything that can strike before DA. That's something... right?

I'm not actually taking the DA in the end. The heamonculus tax has always made me skeptic about its efficiency. In the context of a list that isn't short on resilient units, and when I'm not running it with a WWP I'm doubtful of how useful it will be. It looks great on paper, but in practice I think I want more shooting.

The FNP boost, is nice, but how long is that cronos going to stick around for (you want to keep the talos alive)? How often will my grotesques be able to get a model within that 6" bubble. My army might be compact but often it needs to spread out, and the cronos seems go against the grain of that strategy. Encouraging me to bunch up, when that's not always the right course of action.

This game against eldar highlighted the need for some reliable 36" range shooting. Even just a little can be enough to keep those fragile objective scoring units in check. They can also prove invaluable for clearing blocking/screening chaff. So in that light I have taken an even leaner approach to my list, which has let me squeeze in some more Talos.

Repugnant Ramblers 1.2:

click to see list:

The Shredder wrote:

Well, honestly, that's what I thought when you took on serpent-spam, and you certainly proved me wrong there.

Hehe, well my plan is to stall and play the objective game until I get eternal warrior or my opponent fails some psychic tests.  In some respects my army is a little faster (aside from the dreadknight), as my grotesques don't have guns so can run (not to say Terminators can't, but most players opt to shoot instead).

He's going to have to keep force/hammer hand up on all his units, easier said then done. To cast force reliably you need to roll 3 dice (87.5% chance to succeed), so to cast force on 4 units (assuming combat squad) that's 12 power dice (he only has a 58% chance of succeeding them all). I can also wait until he rolls one with only one success and chuck all my deny dice at it (three deny dice have a 42% chance of negating a 1 success casting of force). He also has to commit his units in the movement phase before he knows whether the powers he plans to cast will succeed or not. This can leave him vulnerable to failures. Finally the critical importance of force in this match up, means he will potentially be throwing 3-4 dice at it, this sucks up a lot of power dice leaving little space for things like prescience (which takes up 5-6 to reliably cast) and/or more exotic powers.

Grey knights also lose 33% if their damage output when they don't get the charge as they only have 2 attacks per model. So getting the charge will make a big difference for me too.

So there are a few things that I can watch out for. But we will see how it plays out.

The Shredder wrote:

I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks, I'm going to need it that's a given (Dice gods fail me some psychic powers!).

I have to say, I'm slightly surprised that you consider the Haemonculus a tax with Dark Artisan.

Regardless, though, I get what you mean about long-range shooting.

I used the Dark Artisan against Grey Knights last night. Granted it didn't end up against anything with force (deep struck onto the relic and then headed off for the two dreads in his deployment zone for Linebreaker) but despite failing my first 4-5 attempts at FNP in a row I still had the Cronos and Haemonculus left at the end of the game (Talos got totalled by a plasma cannon and twin autocannon would you believe!).

As for the haemy being a tax, i took the nightmare doll and panacea along with a scissorhand - he put a couple of hull points on plasma cannon/autocannon dreads and tanked a few wounds for the cronos with his augmented FNP.

5 Incubi also ruined a 5-man falchion terminator squad - 5 wounds caused and no invuns passed!

The Shredder wrote:

I have to say, I'm slightly surprised that you consider the Haemonculus a tax with Dark Artisan.

Well you are paying 70 points for I5 which you won’t get to use when charging through cover. You also sacrifice a considerable chunk of damage output both at range and in melee for survivability (cronos). So it all hinges on wanting to field a cronos.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

As for the haemy being a tax, i took the nightmare doll and panacea along with a scissorhand...

But that’s running in at 420+ points (depending on what upgrades you take on the talos). For 455 I can get 10 grots and a WWP haemi. For 480 I can get 4 talos. For 600 I get corpsethief, that’s partly my concern with Dark Artisan, it can get very expensive very fast.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

5 Incubi also ruined a 5-man falchion terminator squad - 5 wounds caused and no invuns passed!

Thats awesome!