BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts

The Repugnant Ramblers return to ramble round realspace.

The Armies:

The Repugnant Ramblers (DE)

click to see list:

Grey Knights (GK)

click to see list:

Mission: Tactical Escalation (draw as many tactical objectives as the turn counter at the start of your turn)
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Night Fight on first turn: Yes
First Turn: GK
Warlord Trait DE: Well Prepared (generate one additional tactical objective on your first turn)
Warlord Trait GK: Target Priority (In the Shooting phase, your Warlord and all friendly units within 12" of him re-roll To Hit rolls of 1)

Objectives Placement:


I won the roll off to deploy objectives first. The objectives were placed in the same order as their numbers (my opponent placing the even ones and me placing the odd ones).

I wasn’t sure whether I was going to spread out my objectives or cluster them. I wanted some to be clustered, but not all. Grey Knights tend to be very aggressive so I assumed my opponent was going to try and cluster objectives. After my opponent placed his first as close to mine as possible my suspicions were confirmed. I decided to try and spread out the remainder of my objectives. Whilst my opponent went for the signature diamond pattern.

Choosing Table Halves:

I won the roll off for picking table halves and chose the side with only two objectives in it’s deployment zone. In doing this I was hoping to put the grey knight player in a bit of a dilemma. On the one hand he has a potent alpha strike, but on the other he has four objectives that can help him win the mission in his deployment zone.

Psychic Powers and Combat Squads:

My opponent first rolled once on telepathy in an attempt to get invisibility, but failed so he swapped the power out for Psychic Shriek. Most of the other telepathy powers were duds against my army, as I don’t have much shooting and all my units are fearless. So he then roll twice on divination, getting Perfect Timing (ignore cover on psyker’s unit) and Precognition (psyker can re-roll to hit, to wound and armour saves) on his warlord librarian. He did the same thing with his other librarian getting Psychic Shriek, Forewarning (unit gets a 4+ invulnerable save) and Prescience (unit can re-roll to hit).

After rolling powers my opponent decided not to combat squad as this would make his units more intimidating for me to assault and would allow him to affect more models with his blessings.

Deployment:


I decided to deploy first deploying the two squads of talos and keeping the grotesques in reserve. By not having my whole army on the board I was hopping to dissuade my opponent from committing to a turn 1 alpha strike as it would leave him on the wrong side of the board. Whilst my reserves would be able to secure the diamond of objectives unimpeded. I wanted him to focus on playing the mission rather than trying to overwhelm me early on in the game.

My plan worked, and my opponent deployed all his forces on the table. One squad in the forest and the other inside the dilapidated building. This allowed him to cover all the objectives and threaten a large area (thanks to the Repel the enemy rule you can assault out of building). The Dreadknight deployed on the flank near objective 2.

Turn 1 (GK):


Tactical Objectives: Secure Objective Marker 6

Objective 1 - Nothing of Note, Objective 2 - Nothing of Note, Objective 6 - Sabotage (on a 1 all units within 3” take D6 S4 hits) and Objective 4 - Targeting Relay (re-roll 1s to hit during the shooting phase).

The terminators stay where they are and the dreadknight moves up using his run move to close in on the topmost talos (saving the shunt move incase it needs to teleport back to support the rest of the army). During the psychic phase the dreadknight successfully casts force with 4 dice which I fail to deny, it then successfully casts sanctuary with 4 dice. The sabotaged objective goes off, but doesn’t kill any terminators. The terminators score objective 6.

GK VPs: 1
DE VPs: 0


Turn 1 (DE):


Tactical Objectives: Fear and Terror (1VP if an enemy unit fails a pinning, fear or moral test), Secure Objective Marker 3.

Objective 3 - Nothing of Note and Objective 5 - Grav Wave Generator (-2 to charge range). The topmost talos move into the forest to get away from the dreadknight, however they make sure they are still within 3” of the objective (so that they can contest/score it and benefit from the grav wave generator). The bottom talos move out so that they they can draw line of sight on the dreadknight.  All the talos fire their splinter weaponry into the dreadknight inflicting two unsaved wounds. The Talos on Objective Marker 3 score it.

I discard Fear and Terror as I am unlikely to be able to score it at least for a few more rounds.

GK VPs: 1
DE VPs: 1

Turn 2 (GK):


Tactical Objectives: Hold The Line (score 1VP if three units are within 12” of your table edge), Overwhelming Firepower (1VP for destroying an enemy unit in the shooting phase).

The dreadknight moves forward towards the topmost talos. It uses 5 dice to cast force successfully but perils. However, it rolls a 6 on the perils table: Warp surge. It passes the leadership test granting it a 3++ invulnerable save, fleshbane, armour bane and smash. The dreadknight then successfully casts sanctuary with 5 dice, bumping it’s invulnerable save to a 2++. It then fires into the talos with it’s heavy psycannon to no effect. In the assault phase the dreadknight declares a charge against the talos and loses a wound to overwatch leaving it on one wound. The talos are 7” away, meaning the dreadknight needs to roll a 9 after the -2 from the grav wave generator. Thankfully it fails to make the charge.

The librarian disembarks from the dilapidated building meaning three grey knights units are within 12” of their own table edge, scoring Hold the Line.

The grey knight player discards overwhelming fire power.

GK VPs: 2
DE VPs: 1

Turn 2 (DE):


Tactical Objectives: No Prisoners (1VP for destroying an enemy unit), Hungry for Glory (1VP for issuing a challenge).

One unit of grotesques come on and hides out of sight behind the central bastion. The Talos move to draw line of sight on the dreadknight firing all four splinter cannons into it removing it’s last wound. This scores First Blood and No Prisoners for 2VP

I discard Hungry for Glory as I am unlikely to be able to score it at least for a few more rounds.

GK VPs: 2
DE VPs: 3

Turn 3 (GK):


Tactical Objectives: Harness The Warp (D3VP for successfully casting three psychic powers), Score Objective 2, Domination (D3+3 VP if you control all objectives).

The terminators in the bastion disembark so that they can score objective 2. The librarian moves back into unit coherency with them. The grey knights successfully cast, force and forewarning on the top unit, but lose one terminator to perils. They also manage to cast force and hammer hand on the bottom unit. This scores Harness The Warp for 3VP!

The grey knight player discards domination.

GK VPs: 6
DE VPs: 3

Turn 3 (DE):


Tactical Objectives: Supremacy (D3 VP if you control more objectives than your opponent), Psychological Warfare (1VP if an enemy unit fails a pinning, fear or moral test) and Secure Objective 3 .

The second unit of grotesques does not come in from reserve. The topmost talos move out and fire into the terminators killing one. The bottom talos move forward as much as they can whilst still scoring objective 3. The grotesque skirt round the side of the central bastion, to tempt the grey knights out of cover. They are 13” away meaning the grey knight will have to roll high on his move through cover, and even then won’t get his whole unit out of cover meaning he will get a -2 to his charge range (Charge baiting? What is this Fantasy?).

I discard Psychological Warfare as I am unlikely to be able to score it at least for a few more rounds.

GK VPs: 6
DE VPs: 4

Turn 4 (GK):


Tactical Objectives: Behind enemy lines (score 1VP for being within 12” of your opponents table edge), Psychic Communion (1VP for casting 3 or more powers), Score Objective 6, Rites of Exorcism (your opponent nominates an objective if you control it at the end of your turn score 1VP, I nominated one of the objectives in my deployment zone).

The terminator unit nearest the grotesques moves out of the terrain and tries to get as close to the grots behind the bastion as possible. The other terminator unit tries to spread out to contest both objectives (to try and prevent me scoring supremacy) as well as scoring objective 6. The terminator unit nearest the grotesques manages to successfully cast, prescience, hammer hand and force. This scores the Psychic Communion tactical objective. None of the terminators fire into the grotesques as they don’t want to risk increasing the charge distance (and they will surely destroy them in assault). The terminators fail the charge (needing an 8 to make it).

The grey knight player discards Rites of Exorcism.

GK VPs: 8
DE VPs: 5


Turn 4 (DE):


Tactical Objectives:  Supremacy (D3 VP if you control twice as many objectives than your opponent), Ascendancy (D3 VP if you control 3 objective), Secure Objective 1, Secure Objective 4.

The warlord’s grotesques unit comes on landing and running so that they secure objective 1 and are within 12” of the table edge for line breaker. The other grotesques move and run to get as close to the terminators, and contest objective 4. The top talos fire into the terminators, my opponent gets a plague of ones and loses three terminators. The bottom talos fire into the other terminators killing one. Both talos ensure they control their respective objectives 3 and 5. I score Objective 1, Ascendancy and Supremacy for a total of 5VP.

Note: Though the terminator unit was on two objectives a single unit can only control one objective at a time so the grey knights only controlled 1 objective to my 3.

GK VPs: 8
DE VPs: 10

Turn 5 (GK):


Tactical Objectives: Behind enemy lines (score 1VP for being within 12” of your opponents table edge), No Prisoner (1VP for destroying an enemy unit), Score Objective 3, Blood and Guts (1VP for destroying a unit in assault), Score Objective 2.

The top terminator unit ensure one model is within 3” of objective 2. They then fail to cast prescience on themselves, but successfully cast perfect timing before firing into the grotesques near objective 4, killing one. They could have potentially assaulted the other unit of grotesques but this would have left them unable to score objective 2.

The other terminator unit cast hammer hand, but I use all my dice to deny it. They then successfully casts force (though my grotesques have eternal warriors, however it still negates FNP). They then fire into the grotesques killing one and then charge. The Librarian challenges but my haemonculus refuses. The grey knights kill a grotesque and wound another. The grotesques in return kill five terminators.

The grey knight player scores objective 2 and discards Behind enemy lines.

GK VPs: 9
DE VPs: 10

Turn 5 (DE):


Tactical Objectives: Secure Objective 4, Secure Objective 5, Kingslayer (D3 for killing the enemy warlord), Secure Objective 2 and Trophy Hunter (1VP for controlling nominated objective of killing nominated character, D3VP for scoring both. My opponent nominated his warlord, and Objective 6).

The Talos move to secure objective 5, all four firing their splinter into the top terminator squad killing two. The warlord’s grotesque unit moves around the bastion and charges the terminators, without force, hammer hand or an extra attack from charging the grey knights only manage to kill a single grotesque. In return the grotesque drown them in attack (re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound thanks to zealot and poison is brutal!). None survive.

In the other combat the gortesques lose a model as do the terminators.

The covenites score Slay the Warlord, Kinglslayer, Trophy Hunter, Objective 2, and Objective 5 for a total of 6VP.

The Grey Knights conceed. Covenite Victory!

GK VPs: 9
DE VPs: 16

Conclusion

Convincing my opponent to focus on playing the mission through objective placement and deployment allowed me to wait patiently until my army had eternal warrior before committing to assault. WWP deployment was very powerful for playing the mission, allowing me to score and contest objective for crucial VPs. The talos were fantastic, despite never seeing close combat, the ranged splinter fire allowed me to take out the dreadknight and provide covering fire from a distance whilst camping objectives. All in all I’m very happy with how the list performed against one of it’s harder matchups.

Hope you enjoyed the report.

For more reports checkout #TheRepugnantRamblers

Another impressive victory for the Repugnant Ramblers!  Great job, Mush!  Other than the fact that Force was pretty much a non-factor in this game, what was most surprising was that your opponent almost played an army that was identical to yours in a lost of ways.  Two large squads of tough CC monsters and one actual MC (you took two squads of MCs).   I was really amazed by how well the Talos did just through shooting.   I think Talos actually are underrated shooting platforms due to their guns being twin-linked and unlike Venoms they can't be forced to Jink or Shaken/Stunned, which means that until they lose their last wound, they're always going to be firing their Splinter Cannons reliably at full BS, re-rolling misses.   I think there were two critical turning points in this game.  Your placement of objectives which neutralized his alpha strike and your opponent failing his charge against the first Grot squad.  I can't wait to see what's next for  your army of monsters, Mush

Oh wow, you dodged a bullet with that failed dread knight charge. He would have devoured you, lol. Good job though! I plan on building a list similar to yours and your battle reports are helping me figure out how to play it. I liked your decision on deployment zone, I'll have to remember that versus my club's drop pod player.

sweetbacon wrote:

Another impressive victory for the Repugnant Ramblers!  Great job, Mush!  Other than the fact that Force was pretty much a non-factor in this game, what was most surprising was that your opponent almost played an army that was identical to yours in a lost of ways.  Two large squads of tough CC monsters and one actual MC (you took two squads of MCs).

Well, my grey knight lists (similar to the one my opponent used) was partly the inspiration to this coven list. I wanted a similar feel, just with fearless, accurate deepstrike and cheaper MCs that I don't mind having sitting on home objectives. I didn't want a list that depended on the psychic phase for re-rolls, and grotesques get both re-roll to wound and re-roll to hit from special rules (depending on the game turn and toughness of the enemy models). Most of all though I wanted it to be Dark Eldar.

sweetbacon wrote:

I was really amazed by how well the Talos did just through shooting.   I think Talos actually are underrated shooting platforms due to their guns being twin-linked and unlike Venoms they can't be forced to Jink or Shaken/Stunned, which means that until they lose their last wound, they're always going to be firing their Splinter Cannons reliably at full BS, re-rolling misses.

I was really impressed. They also have a pretty sick overwatch thanks to twinlinked and I can imagine they will do well against FMC. They will certainly help me in my future games against wraithknights. 

sweetbacon wrote:

I think there were two critical turning points in this game.  Your placement of objectives which neutralized his alpha strike and your opponent failing his charge against the first Grot squad.  I can't wait to see what's next for  your army of monsters, Mush

Yes, both were pretty critical. Though the charge was unlikely to succeed, my grotesques needed to get closer so they could potentially contest objective 4, in future turns. So I moved them as close as I dared. That's another really potent thing about grotesques is they are fantastic for contesting in maelstrom because they are so durable. Watch out for objective secured though!

Another turning point was my opponent not casting precognition on his warlord Turn 5 (for a 2+ re-rollable), but I guess he didn't expect me to charge him as I had been playing very passively all game. I hadn't drawn Kingslayer yet either.  

Dirtydeeds wrote:

Oh wow, you dodged a bullet with that failed dread knight charge.  He would have devoured you, lol.  Good job though!  I plan on building a list similar to yours and your battle reports are helping me figure out how to play it.  I liked your decision on deployment zone, I'll have to remember that versus my club's drop pod player.

Yes it would work well against Drop Pods too I imagine. @Red Corsair mentioned it over at dakka too, so I'm not the only one who seems to had similar experiences.

Red Corsair wrote:

For deployments VS a pod list it depends on which table half I get. If I get the table half with the 4 objectives then yes you definitely want to forgo reserves and simply use all you models to force the pods off the objectives. This also lets you assault whatever pods in turn 1 and with a corpse thief claw simply feeds you early victory points while you combat small chunks of their list at a time. In my match VS GK's strike force I did this and he ended up DS all his shock units onto his own board half in Hammer and Anvil. My units were simply too durable for his shooting to matter and he'd be feeding my assault army smaller chunks and letting me get the assault.

If I get the side with only two then I would only deploy the corpse thief claw and DS the other two units on their side. By giving them 4 objectives you kind of place them into a strange position. On the one hand they have an alpha strike list with on time use mobility similar to ours with one big twist, they have to commit half their force rounded up turn one allowing us to react to their decision. If they take their own side then they kind of wasted their alpha, and honestly by turn two the CTC will be in amongst them any way.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Another awesome batrep Mush and an even more interesting game. I mean combat didn't occur till so late n the game! especially for two such CC orientated lists. I like how you played out till you had the potent PfP buffs, baiting your enemy. The spliterfire on the DK was impressive, and i have to agree the talos as backfield objective holders who pump out some great support fire seems a solid choice. With such a small unit count they also provide the durability to make it till end game.

How did you find the smaller grot units? I had a feeling 7-8 would be a pretty good sweet spot, you lose some of the area they can cover, but squeezing in those two extra talos seemed worth it. You still had the strength in combat to dish out plenty of attacks and the abberation wasn't needed as you simply declined with the haemy.

Great game, you forced him to make some interesting decisions. Firstly his deployment, then i feel like you forced his Dk to come to you, as otherwise you would have simply shot it off the board, prime splinter target. Meaning by turn 2 you'd removed his most mobile unit and support.

I understand why your opponent decided to walk the dreadknight, but would you think you'd have had far more trouble with it if they'd shunted?

Also, how about weapon loadout? I've only played one grey knights player (also this week ironically, there's a battle report up on my blog - see sig) but on both his dreadknights he used the gatling psilencer. Whilst I appreciate it'd struggle to wound Talos through their toughness, save etc it seems like every wounding hit would carry far more threat in case you dropped out a bad roll?

Nice to see you writing batreps again Mush

One question though, the Grotesque units and one haemonculus, is that a grotesquerie formation, and if not, why not?

Septimus wrote:

Nice to see you writing batreps again Mush

One question though, the Grotesque units and one haemonculus, is that a grotesquerie formation, and if not, why not?

They aren't, because Mush (or that list ) needs two HQs to function properly.

Mushkilla, as stated before, I love your reports. So much insight and your tactics are ace!
Keep up the stomping

PS: I hope I answered the question correctly and you're not mad at me because I did it in the first place

Thanks, now it makes sense

that list is similar to the DA one i made and have started testing since seeing your ramblers, which i really enjoyed starting to test

solar shock wrote:

How did you find the smaller grot units? I had a feeling 7-8 would be a pretty good sweet spot, you lose some of the area they can cover, but squeezing in those two extra talos seemed worth it. You still had the strength in combat to dish out plenty of attacks and the abberation wasn't needed as you simply declined with the haemy.

The Talos were definitely well worth it. I would still go for 10 grotesques if I had the point to spare though. As much as I have considered going 3x7-8 grotesques the additional haemonculus/WWP expenses are too restrictive for it in my experience so far.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I understand why your opponent decided to walk the dreadknight, but would you think you'd have had far more trouble with it if they'd shunted?

Not really. He would still have had to take a round of shooting from both Talos units in addition to overwatch from the unit that he decided to charge. The Talos were in cover so the dreadknight would strike at I1 (dreadnknights don't have grenades) and would have to survive 8 S7 AP2 attacks before getting to swing. Talos in pairs in that regard are fantastic defensive units especially when you stick them in cover.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Also, how about weapon loadout? I've only played one grey knights player (also this week ironically, there's a battle report up on my blog - see sig) but on both his dreadknights he used the gatling psilencer. Whilst I appreciate it'd struggle to wound Talos through their toughness, save etc it seems like every wounding hit would carry far more threat in case you dropped out a bad roll?

Gatling Psilencers are a pain, thankfully most GK players that I have encountered prefer to take the heavy incinerator instead. It only has 24" range and our splinter cannons are as effective against dreadknights as it is against us, so not all is lost. Force needs to be successfully cast for the psilencer to cause instant death, so by saving all your deny dice to try and dispel it, you will push the grey knight player use more dice to cast it (4-5 as opposed to 2-3). This increases his chances of perils which more often than not will take a wound off the dreadknight (as successful invulnerable saves need to be re-rolled). Another thing for considerations is a lot of tournaments only allow you to cast one psychic power per mastery level, which means if your dreadknight is casting force is won't be able to cast sanctuary.

Omega1907 wrote:

PS: I hope I answered the question correctly and you're not mad at me because I did it in the first place

Haha, no problem at all. These reports are supposed to generate discussion that the whole TDC community can be invloved in.

Nice report.

I don't know if it's because my group plays 2v2s, or if it's because you put your grots in reserve, or if it's just my imagination, but it seems like you reach EW much faster than I seem to. I mean, in most of my games, there have usually already been several massive melees and my Grots are usually either victorious or wiped out by the time turn 5 rolls around. In contrast, your games seem almost 'leisurely' - with units hovering in and around cover and occasional minor skirmishes breaking out in the meantime.

I have to say though, I found the ease with which you took out that Dreadknight really depressing. Last game I was against GKs, I was pumping numerous venoms into one plus dark lances, blasters, heat lances, Ossefactors and even a couple of Hexrifles. After about 2 turns of this, I'd lost a venom, a blasterborn squad, an archon and a unit of heat-lance scourges to his DKs, and done 1 wound to one of his 2 DKs.  

Anyway, I do wonder about the GK player's choice of psychic powers. It might have been better to roll on Sanctic Daemonology for both librarians and try for Gate of Infinity and Vortex of Doom. The former could allow him to reposition after an alpha-strike or somesuch, and the latter could have been devastating to grotesques. It would have made deep-striking near him a lot riskier, and would have given him a way to insta-kill some grotesques after turn 5. Obviously this is just theorising though.

As it was, I think he was definitely outmanoeuvred, and suffered heavily from only having one mobile element in his army. Exchanging some terminators and/or a librarian for a second DK might have helped. I mean, once his lone DK died your home objectives and Talos were safe. Without Gate, there was no way his terminators could reach you.

Also, I'm happy to admit that you were definitely right in switching DA for 4 Talos - in particular, that long-range firepower is very nice.

I think I might have rambled a bit (ironically   ), so sorry about that. Congratulations on a well-deserved win.

EDIT: Oh, one thing I thought I should mention:

"My opponent first rolled once on telepathy in an attempt to get invisibility, but failed so he swapped the power out for Psychic Shriek."

I thought psykers always knew the primaris power automatically? As in, they don't need to swap out another power to get it?

Couple more thoughts occur to me - at one stage you mentioned getting within 12" of the board edge for linebreaker - doesn't linebreaker apply once you a wholly within your opponent's deployment zone?

And second, a bit of a discovery - Vortex of Doom is not only a nasty power if it's cast, it also (according to the card) auto-perils if your opponent fails to cast it! Definitely worked in my favour last week, since my opponent's caster was also within helm of spite range (managed two wounds on his warlord thanks to that baby!).

I took down 2 dreadknights last week in 1500pt game. two perils wounds on the warlord, one shooting and one failed combat save (archon with agoniser). The second took wounds from fire, some poison shooting, a blast pistol and a pair of razorwing lances to the back. Annoying, since I completely failed to roll any sixes to wound with my Incubi despite them fighting against DK's for three game turns!

Shredder wrote:

I don't know if it's because my group plays 2v2s, or if it's because you put your grots in reserve, or if it's just my imagination, but it seems like you reach EW much faster than I seem to. I mean, in most of my games, there have usually already been several massive melees and my Grots are usually either victorious or wiped out by the time turn 5 rolls around. In contrast, your games seem almost 'leisurely' - with units hovering in and around cover and occasional minor skirmishes breaking out in the meantime.

That’s one of the strengths of reserves in particular when going second. If you are going second and your reserves come on turn 2, your opponent has two turns (turns 3 and 4) which he can shoot/assault them before eternal warrior kicks in. If your reserves come in turn 3 he has one turn (turn4) to shoot/assault them . If your reservers come on turn 4 he won’t be able to shoot/assault them before they get eternal warrior.

This is partly why I don’t have reserve manipulation in this list. I don’t mind units coming in later, they will be at full strength and have more buffs from power from pain. My opponent on the other hand will have less turns to deal with them.

My list might be full of simplistic brutes, but it doesn’t mean I eschew the Dark Eldar adage of only engaging the enemy with the odds heavily stacked in your favour. So I’m happy to play hide and seek until an opportunity presents itself. After all with rampage and power from pain, my forces only gets strong as the game goes on, so waiting can be quite advantageous.

Shredder wrote:

Anyway, I do wonder about the GK player's choice of psychic powers. It might have been better to roll on Sanctic Daemonology for both librarians and try for Gate of Infinity and Vortex of Doom. The former could allow him to reposition after an alpha-strike or somesuch, and the latter could have been devastating to grotesques. It would have made deep-striking near him a lot riskier, and would have given him a way to insta-kill some grotesques after turn 5. Obviously this is just theorising though.

Yes that might have been the way to go, I think he was expecting a more aggressive game (remember he chose his powers before deployment). Hence the psychic screams for dealing with the talos. You have to be careful with Vortex, it takes about 8 power dice to have a reliable chance of casting, not only does that suck up most of your power dice (preventing other powers like force/hammer hand) but it has a very high chance of perils associated with it. In addition to all this vortex can easily backfire on your own units. Finally as @The_Burning_Eye mentioned gate auto peril on a failure to cast. So Gate is rarely worth the risks in my experience.

Shredder wrote:

As it was, I think he was definitely outmanoeuvred, and suffered heavily from only having one mobile element in his army. Exchanging some terminators and/or a librarian for a second DK might have helped. I mean, once his lone DK died your home objectives and Talos were safe. Without Gate, there was no way his terminators could reach you.

It’s one of the reasons I run a lot of interceptors with my grey knights. Interestingly though I find dread knights and interceptors to be less intimidating than terminators. The dread knights have no grenades and are vulnerable to instant death, the interceptors don’t have the weight of attacks and only have power armour. Gate would have been beneficial, but it’s going to suck up warp charges, so reduces your chances of getting crucial powers like force and hammer hand off, there’s also a risk of a bad scatter.

Shredder wrote:

Also, I'm happy to admit that you were definitely right in switching DA for 4 Talos - in particular, that long-range firepower is very nice.

Yeah, I’m very happy with the Talos. To the point that I might not even bother with corpse thief as I don’t really need scout, and more units give me more flexibility.

Shredder wrote:

I think I might have rambled a bit (ironically  Wink ), so sorry about that. Congratulations on a well-deserved win. Very Happy

Don’t be, your feedback has always proven invaluable!

Shredder wrote:

I thought psykers always knew the primaris power automatically? As in, they don't need to swap out another power to get it?

Not when they choose powers from multiple disciplines.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Couple more thoughts occur to me - at one stage you mentioned getting within 12" of the board edge for linebreaker - doesn't linebreaker apply once you a wholly within your opponent's deployment zone?

Nope, you need to be within 12” of your opponents deployment edge. I thought it was deployment zone too but @Vasara pointed out last game that this not the case.

Mushkilla wrote:

That’s one of the strengths of reserves in particular when going second. If you are going second and your reserves come on turn 2, your opponent has two turns (turns 3 and 4) which he can shoot/assault them before eternal warrior kicks in. If your reserves come in turn 3 he has one turn (turn4) to shoot/assault them . If your reservers come on turn 4 he won’t be able to shoot/assault them before they get eternal warrior.

This is partly why I don’t have reserve manipulation in this list. I don’t mind units coming in latter, they will be at full strength and have more buffs from power from pain. My opponent on the other hand will have less turns to deal with them.

I have to say, WWP Grots are looking very interesting after reading your reports.

As a question, what would you say is a good minimum number of grots to deploy via WWP?

Mushkilla wrote:

My list might be full of simplistic brutes, but it doesn’t mean I eschew the Dark Eldar adage of only engaging the enemy with the odds heavily stacked in your favour favour. So I’m happy to play hide and seek until an opportunity presents itself. After all with rampage and power from pain, my forces only gets strong as the game goes on, so waiting can be quite advantageous.

Mushkilla wrote:

Yes that might have been the way to go, I think he was expecting a more aggressive game (remember he chose his powers before deployment). Hence the psychic screams for dealing with the talks. You have to be careful with Vortex, it takes about 8 power dice to have a reliable chance of casting, not only does that suck up most of your power dice (preventing other powers like force/hammer hand) but it has a very high chance of perils associated with it. In addition to all this vortex can easily backfire on your own units.

Oh, certainly. But, GKs usually have plenty of dice. And, if things were going well, he could simply have chosen not to cast it.

It just seemed like a very good option to have available against your list.

Mushkilla wrote:

It’s one of the reasons I run a lot of interceptors with my grey knights. Interestingly though I find dread knights and interceptors to be less intimidating than terminators. The dread knights have no grenades and are vulnerable to instant death, the interceptors don’t have the wait of attacks and only have power armour. Gate would have been beneficial, but it’s going to suck up warp charges, so reduces your chances of getting crucial powers like force and hammer hand off, there’s also a risk of a bad scatter. Finally as @The_Burning_Eye mentioned gate auto peril on a failure to cast. So Gate is rarely worth the risks in my experience.

It might be because I tend to run a more 'traditional' skimmer-based DE list with few melee units.

Anyway, I agree that terminators can be more threatening in combat (especially since my opponent always fields Draigo). Although, S10 is nothing to sneeze at and means that DKs can insta-kill Grots without even needing to cast Force.

Regardless, what scares me about DKs is their mobility. They can go wherever they like and kill my units inside their transports. In contrast, terminators are a lot more restricted and less mobile. And, since teleporting costs them their assault for the turn, they can rarely bring their full capabilities to bear against my MSU army.

And, of course, there's the fact that my DK opponent fails maybe 1/30 2+ armour saves on his DKs, and 1/5 4++ saves. If his saves were even remotely average, I might fear them a bit less.

The Shredder wrote:

I have to say, WWP Grots are looking very interesting after reading your reports.

As a question, what would you say is a good minimum number of grots to deploy via WWP?

Depends what you want to achieve. I like larger units 8-10, mainly because it allows me to contest multiple objective, block movement, multi assault and is more cost efficient in terms of the haemonculus +1 to PfP and the WWP. That being said smaller units have a smaller footprint and are easier to hide behind line of sight. They can also fit into smaller spaces when deep-striking. Both have their uses.

However, I find with smaller squads you can get a similar effect by embarking them in a raider with enhanced aether sails and keeping it in reserve. This offers them some protection, from shooting and if the raider is ignored it can give them more mobility. This also saves you 45 points, compared to a haemonculus (as long as you are using coven supplement grotesques they will have fearless by the time they come in from reserve anyway so don't really need his buff).

The Shredder wrote:

Oh, certainly. But, GKs usually have plenty of dice. And, if things were going well, he could simply have chosen not to cast it.

It just seemed like a very good option to have available against your list.

Yeah, strength D small blast is good against most things, but I have rarely found it worthwhile in my games with my Grey Knights. More often than not I find the opportunity costs are too high.

The Shredder wrote:

It might be because I tend to run a more 'traditional' skimmer-based DE list with few melee units.

I would say so. In a traditional skimmer list mobile units are more of a concern as they can catch you. In a slow assault based coven list, the hard hitters in assault are more of a concern as they can out punch you.

The Shredder wrote:

Regardless, what scares me about DKs is their mobility. They can go wherever they like and kill my units inside their transports. In contrast, terminators are a lot more restricted and less mobile. And, since teleporting costs them their assault for the turn, they can rarely bring their full capabilities to bear against my MSU army.

Yeah, interceptors with incinerators and dreadknights with heavy incinerators are a real pain for a conventional Dark Eldar list.

Mushkilla wrote:

Depends what you want to achieve. I like larger units 8-10, mainly because it allows me to contest multiple objective, block movement, multi assault and is more cost efficient in terms of the haemonculus +1 to PfP and the WWP. That being said smaller units have a smaller footprint and are easier to hide behind line of sight. They can also fit into smaller spaces when deep-striking. Both have their uses.

However, I find with smaller squads you can get a similar effect by embarking them in a raider with enhanced aether sails and keeping it in reserve. This offers them some protection, from shooting and if the raider is ignored it can give them more mobility. This also saves you 45 points, compared to a haemonculus (as long as you are using coven supplement grotesques they will have fearless by the time they come in from reserve anyway so don't really need his buff).

Deep striking a squad in a Raider is an interesting idea. Though, I'm not sure if I'd want to skimp on the WWP. Being able to place them right behind terrain, with no risk of mishap, seems pretty useful for this sort of tactic. Either way, do you think it's worth putting Night Shields on the raiders?

Also, do you think this tactic is a good idea even when the rest of my army will be starting on the field?

The Shredder wrote:

Deep striking a squad in a Raider is an interesting idea. Though, I'm not sure if I'd want to skimp on the WWP. Being able to place them right behind terrain, with no risk of mishap, seems pretty useful for this sort of tactic.

You don't have to deepstrike, you can come in from the table edge (when coming in from reserve), this means you have pin point precision and can deploy anywhere 36" away from the table edge. The other option is to deepstrike conservatively and use your 24" flat out move in the shooting phase (as you can still flat out after deep-striking) to move the raider right behind the piece of terrain you were planning on hiding behind. Basically if you deepstrike 12" away from where you want to hide the raider the furthest you can end up away is 24", which you can then correct with your flat out move. This gives you the exact same precision as a WWP.

The Shredder wrote:

Either way, do you think it's worth putting Night Shields on the raiders?

Probably, it does make the raider an absolute nightmare to destroy without ignore cover.

The Shredder wrote:

Also, do you think this tactic is a good idea even when the rest of my army will be starting on the field?

Yes, as by the time they come on you will have removed a lot of threats to them, your opponents army is also less likely to have the fire power to destroy them. It's a pretty handy wild card to have.

Mushkilla wrote:

You don't have to deepstrike, you can come in from the table edge (when coming in from reserve), this means you have pin point precision and can deploy anywhere 36" away from the table edge. The other option is to deepstrike conservatively and use your 24" flat out move in the shooting phase (as you can still flat out after deep-striking) to move the raider right behind the piece of terrain you were planning on hiding behind. Basically if you deepstrike 12" away from where you want to hide the raider the furthest you can end up away is 24", which you can then correct with your flat out move. This gives you the exact same precision as a WWP.

Huh, damn good points, thanks.

Thanx for the batrep mush! You always make it look and sound so easy... bastard.

I want to play with lots of grots now. Ill add a grotesquerie to my skimmer and reaver based list.

1 largish unit, 7 or 8, wwp in and the other unit will be 4 in a EA raider hiding at the back. When the big unit arrives the raider unit can turbo up to join them. I don't trust my reserve rolls and really want these two units working together from the get go. Any thoughts?

I think Mushkilla's thought process of keeping them off the board/out of combat until at least tun three has some weight. But it just depends on how strong the rest of your list is. The Talos can survive many rounds of shooting, some of our skimmers cannot.

Painjunky wrote:

You always make it look and sound so easy... bastard.

Reports have a nasty habit of doing that.

Painjunky wrote:

I want to play with lots of grots now. Ill add a grotesquerie to my skimmer and reaver based list.

1 largish unit, 7 or 8, wwp in and the other unit will be 4 in a EA raider hiding at the back. When the big unit arrives the raider unit can turbo up to join them. I don't trust my reserve rolls and really want these two units working together from the get go. Any thoughts?

It seems sensible enough, but like all these things, you'll have to see how it plays out on the table and how it ties in with the rest of your list.

Dirtydeeds wrote:

I think Mushkilla's thought process of keeping them off the board/out of combat until at least tun three  has some weight.  But it just depends on how strong the rest of your list is.  The Talos can survive many rounds of shooting, some of our skimmers cannot.

This is a very good point, reserving 60% of is only worth considering if the 40% that stay on the table are resilient enough to survive until the reserves come on.

The list I'm running works because the whole is greater than then sum of it's parts, the Talos are a great anchor, that's why I can reserve 60% of my army. Transplant any of these units into another list and they might not perform so well.

Mushkilla wrote:

Nope, you need to be within 12” of your opponents deployment edge. I thought it was deployment zone too but @Vasara pointed out last game that this not the case.

For linebreaker you need to be wholly within 12" with one model from enemy taple edge to score it.

"Behind the enemy lines" or whatever the maelstrom card is it's enough to be 12" from table edge.

Out of curiosity, how would you rate your odds against a standard DE army? With lots of Venoms and Ravagers, and possibly some gunboats?

Edit: I noticed you seem to be using a lot of Bastions as terrain when you play. Are you aware you can deepstrike in the battlement of these? That would negate the threat of an unwanted charge when they land, and provide a nice cover save against shooting. Provided your opponent can't just surround the building and wreck it, obviously.

Sigmaril wrote:

Out of curiosity, how would you rate your odds against a standard DE army? With lots of Venoms and Ravagers, and possibly some gunboats?

Probably similar, if not slightly better than my odds against Serpent Spam. Two venoms average about the same damage against grotesques in cover as a wave serpent. Dark Eldar don't have the range or the assault capacity of Serpent Spam/Wraith Knight list (unless they bring them as allies) making things a bit easier, but they have similar mobility and fire power.

Sigmaril wrote:

Edit: I noticed you seem to be using a lot of Bastions as terrain when you play. Are you aware you can deepstrike in the battlement of these? That would negate the threat of an unwanted charge when they land, and provide a nice cover save against shooting. Provided your opponent can't just surround the building and wreck it, obviously.

That's a good point. I did consider it. However, you have to spend a turn waiting on the battlements, you then have to spend a turn to embark into the bastion, and only then can you disembark the following turn (so they will get two turns of shooting against it, and potentially two assault phases). Considering it was dilapidated as well (AV12).

It's two turns where your opponent knows you can't move. All he has to do is block the access points and you can then only emergency disembark. This can be used to delay you further, effectively putting your unit out of the game without firing a shot.

At the end of the day I didn't want to take the risk.