how much dark light

JackKnife01 wrote:

The anti infantry use diss cannons and give the blaster to random guy. If that is their job let it rain from afar

If you're trying to get as many dark light weapons in as possible, dissies count against that purpose, and as the boat can shoot a different target to the unit inside it, the raider itself doesn't need to be armed for anti infantry duty.

Personally I'd go for the 2nd option every time, having a blaster in the big warrior unit isn't a bad option but it does get expensive if that squad is only going to be shooting guardsmen or termagants, and if you're shooting at armour then you're wasting 40pts on an extra five warriors (over the min squad size) who can't do any damage.

If you look at the two lists, the first has three dedicated anti tanks units (the raiders) and three hybrid units (the warriors with blasters).

the second list has 4 dedicated anti tank units (raiders), two dedicated anti infantry units (warriors) and two hybrid units (warriors) that can support either function without either being hideously expensive or wasting a huge amount of AI support fire. That equates to an extra two units to give you tactical flexibility, not to mention making the most of the AI shooting from the warrior gunboats. The only downside is that if your opponent is fully mechanised, then the gunboat warriors won't have a target unless you break a transport (which isn't guaranteed), BUT that is negated by the fact that their transports can then happily move 12" and still fire at full effect to get a better angle, perhaps negating a cover save.

Thanks TBE for the advice. I was leaning toward the second option as well

Sounds interesting. But why no Night Shields? They are great.

CptMetal wrote:

Sounds interesting. But why no Night Shields? They are great.

Depends on your meta - if you see a lot of melee, templates and/or Ignores Cover then you're not going to get your points worth.

Also, it's an expensive upgrade to begin with - especially on such fragile vehicles. I see it as something to use spare points for when the rest of your list is finished - not something to put on vehicles as standard.

But, maybe that's just me.

I do tend to put night shields on my gunboats, but that's because they tend to deep strike in to where things get tasty and there's likely to be a plethora of S4 guns, meaning the extra 1 point on the jink save can make a difference (yes, I know it's not huge, but when you pass your jink on a 3 to stop you losing your last hull point meaning you still get re-rolls on your splinter rifles in the next turn, you'll be grateful for spending those points).

If you're struggling for points the night shields aren't essential (at least, not as essential as splinter racks are)

Do you use a WWP to get those gunboats into position, or just risk the scatter dice?

nah, just risk it. average scatter is around 7" and you can usually pull a few tricks so that you can land within 12" of something without being too dangerous. If the board looks too busy to start with then I'll just either deploy or come on from my table edge (I played a 2500 game on a 6x4 against a nid horde where i figured trying to deep strike would likely end badly so just came on from my edge as a nice counterpunch, particularly if your opponent is expecting you to DS or is looking to get into your DZ anyway)

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

nah, just risk it. average scatter is around 7" and you can usually pull a few tricks so that you can land within 12" of something without being too dangerous.

Fair enough.

I fear I don't have much luck where deep strikers are concerned. My average scatter seems to be about 11" in the worst possible direction.

I feel your pain, I was playing a game with my marines a couple of weeks ago and had a sternguard unit that were going to drop in and go after my opponent's plasma devastators. Sadly they scattered 12" directly towards his land raider redeemer, which promptly toasted 7 of them in the following turn

The Shredder wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

All it "needs" is the 5 point adjustment, methinks.
If it got both then I would argue it would be too powerful unless we had to pay for the twin-linking (and I never would).

Does it seem at all ironic that you consider this game-breaking, when Eldar just got:
- D-weapons on a ton of units (at no extra cost)
- 1:1 Scatter Lasers on troop jetbikes
- +1BS and +1 on the damage table for Fire Dragons
- Haywire grenades on swooping hawks that hit any flier the unit moves over on a 4+

I think the game is already broken.

No - there is no irony in that at all unless I was touting the Eldar codex as the most balanced codex ever.

I am not.

Thor665 wrote:

The Shredder wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

All it "needs" is the 5 point adjustment, methinks.
If it got both then I would argue it would be too powerful unless we had to pay for the twin-linking (and I never would).

Does it seem at all ironic that you consider this game-breaking, when Eldar just got:
- D-weapons on a ton of units (at no extra cost)
- 1:1 Scatter Lasers on troop jetbikes
- +1BS and +1 on the damage table for Fire Dragons
- Haywire grenades on swooping hawks that hit any flier the unit moves over on a 4+

I think the game is already broken.

No - there is no irony in that at all unless I was touting the Eldar codex as the most balanced codex ever.

I am not.

Possibly irony was the wrong word (though everyone seems to disagree about what constitutes irony, in any case), but I think my point still stands.

Huh,swooping hawks get haywire hits on flyers yet our scourges get jack... Another thing....IF GW would even bother too look at read follow their own fluff..they would realize and comprehend that ALL our vehicles are basically flyers just due to the fact that commoragh is a HUGE bubble and every vehicle flys. So at the minimum the raven,the fighter,the raider and ravager should all have anti air and the scourges by their very nature ARE flyers...but do the writers and so called codex making committee s do this....nope, not a chance in hell.
Regarding DL weapons this would mean a minimum of 48" range...as well as the ability of our vehicles to move at least 12" and shoot..and I don't mean snap shoot.. We are supposed to be bad ass raiders with thousands of years exp,but upstart monkeigh,tau and even a couple ork weapons are better...and our supposed badass void mine is a puny small blast?!?!..I yell out a anger based WTFH GW!?!?

I also love how the durable Eldar models get D-weapons and abundance of TL and BS5 meltaguns with an additional +1 to the damage roll; whilst we, the glass-cannon army, have no twin-linked, no BS5 outside of characters and the best we get is S8 AP2 lances or S6 meltaguns.

I mean, who'd want insane durability and speed when you have that kind of frepower?

Well, let's see here...

The 1250 List I've been toying with lately has... 11 lances, two of which are on a Razorwing. Also, a pack of Scourges with Heat Lances.

Not a blaster in sight, either. I've been pretty down on our Lance weapons lately, and even more-so on Blasters. Rather, I really should say that Lances on vehicles are pretty appropriately priced in and of themselves - having a proper anti-tank gun on our basic boat is nothing to sneeze at... but the current cost of blasters is, IMHO, over the top. I can't look at it and justify it being 50% better than a standard Meltagun. The range difference is a huge factor, but in every other way the blaster is completely outclassed.

Heat lances, Haywire blasters... if these things were able to be taken as part of the normal special weapons list, I'd be ecstatic. And everything would be armed with Heat Lances (for me, personally) instead of Blasters. The lack of variety has just made things boring for me lately.

I suppose I'm just jealous of the generic Imperial weapon list, as their basic guys tend to have so many options compared to us... quite possibly more than we have even counting our "limited supply" list - although my numbers may be a touch off.

Anyway, I'm ranting...

That number (11+4) seems low... counting the Scourges it's only 1 for every 83+ points... but so far it has served. It's still in the early phases, though. Really half of those Lances are commonly seen to be Jinking, too... I do Nightshields on the Ravagers so they can sit behind some form of cover and still have a 4+ (or better yet, 3+ from ruins) while still firing all shots all day.

I'd be pretty happy to trade the Ravagers for Reavers, if I could get them to work. They always evaporate on me. Maybe I should build this old Talos I found?

Oh dark light... I hardly knew thee... or something.