The First Kabal of the Sundered Breeze 1750

This is my army as it stands, (awaiting delivery of 10 Hellions and 2 Venoms, but, they are on their way)
I haven't managed and in depth playtest of this exact build, but, I've tried the various components in different contexts and have made an army that I think (hope) works together. I have also tried staying away from 'internet lists' and uber competitive builds, trying instead to write 'MY' army with units that I like.

The Razorwind Exiles – The First Kabal of the Sundered Breeze - 1746 points

HQ

Archon Mephitic – 160
Agoniser
Combat Drugs
Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Haywire Grenades
Ghostplate Armour
Shadow Field

Baron Sathonyx – 105

Troops

10 Hellions – 175
Helliarch
Stunclaw

10 Hellions – 195
Helliarch
Stunclaw
Phantasm Grenade Launcher

5 Wyches – 100
Shardnet and Impaler
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Power Weapon
Venom

Elites

4 Incubi – 118
Klaivex
Onslaught
Venom

3 Trueborn – 81
3 Blasters
Venom

3 Trueborn – 81
3 Blasters
Venom

Fast Attack

5 Scourges – 130
2 Haywire Blasters

3 Reavers – 98
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers – 98
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

Heavy Support

Ravager – 125
Night Shields
Flickerfield

Dedicated Transport

4 Venoms – 280
4 Splinter Cannons
4 Grisly Trophies


Arhon goes in Venom with Incubi and goes off hunting anything that needs a power weapon. They like eating Saguinary Guard.

Hellions charge down the throat and multi assault as much as possible as early as possible

Wyches and Scourges operate a 1-2 punch, Scourges stunning with Haywire Blasters so wyches can auto hit Haywire grenades. Wyches can also take care of Dreadnoughts pretty well.

Blasterborn do what blasterborn do

Ravager sits back and usually fails to hit anything till turn 5. He should be zooming across my table edge getting side armour shots.

Reavers zoom around over troops, jumping on the tank if they get the chance. These are usually stuck in the open providing a nice target for you to waste lots of shooting on. Who knows, they might get lucky with 3+ cover saves.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Archon Mephitic – 160
Agoniser
Combat Drugs
Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Haywire Grenades
Ghostplate Armour
Shadow Field

Ghostplate and a Shadowfield? I personally think you're paying too much there. Especially considering what this guy is.

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Baron Sathonyx – 105

Fine - though by the sound of it you're fielding him with Hellions

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10 Hellions – 175
Helliarch
Stunclaw

Yeah...okay, I think my thoughts on this are pretty well known, and I'm almost tired of writing them out, but here's the quick version;

1. Hellions suck at killing most things in assault due to a lack of power weapons and a meager armor save.
2. Stunclaws are pretty useless, how many ICs that you can kill in assault are going to be with a squad that you can't kill to the point you'll want to run away? Just take an Agoniser.
3. They're too expensive for what they can do, and most Troop options in the book can do anyything they do, only better.

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10 Hellions – 195
Helliarch
Stunclaw
Phantasm Grenade Launcher

Double ick. If you're using the Baron I'd say make one squad of 15, save some points, and get better advantage of his cover save boost for the big squad, as opposed to having an easier to kill squad that is, functionally, just as dangerous as your harder to kill squad. Most opponents aren't dumb enough to shoot the right one

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5 Wyches – 100
Shardnet and Impaler
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix
Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Power Weapon

Eh, I don't think defensive grenades are worth the cost for Wyches - especially a squad this small.
Oh gawds, and you split up your Transports from the units they're dedicated to - ergh, I despise that. But I will delet all the talk about how bad it is to footslog Wyches. I guess these are in a Venom? I'm pretty neutral on this build - I don't think your army needs a tarpit unit, and this Wych squad, as built, is really only good at attacking vehicles, which makes me wonder at some of the other expensive upgrades you opted for. I'd figure out what you're using them for and then focus on making them good at that.

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4 Incubi – 118
Klaivex
Onslaught

Onslaught helps more the more Incubi you have. At the moment you don't have enough Incubi to have it worth the upgrade - at the amount you're paying for it, you'd be better served by just paying for another Incubi - you'll get a lot more attacks overall...unless you're in a Venom w. Archon...I dunno, if you have space it's a good idea. I'd say it's probably worth the extra few points for a Raider if not.
Also, at that stage, I'd downgrade the Klaivex to a regular Incubi to save points and not really change anything.

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3 Trueborn – 81
3 Blasters

3 Trueborn – 81
3 Blasters

Fine.

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5 Scourges – 130
2 Haywire Blasters

Fine, though I'd probably take Troops over these guys.

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3 Reavers – 98
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

3 Reavers – 98
Heat Lance
Cluster Caltrops

Dislike this build. If you're vaning then you're not shooting, and vice versa. You're paying a lot of points for something that you basically don't want the unit to do. Considering how pathetic Hellions are vs. mech, and your Incubi (though I'm not sure about the Wyches) I'd probably go anti-mech (edit: especially with a Venomspam plan going) I'd drop the Caltrops and just regular bladevane when you're moving into position.

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Ravager – 125
Night Shields
Flickerfield

Fine.

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4 Venoms – 280
4 Splinter Cannons
4 Grisly Trophies

Okay, so everybody is in Venoms, natch.

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Hellions charge down the throat and multi assault as much as possible as early as possible

*cough* multi assault?
You do know that Hellions have difficulty dealing with 10 or so Tac Marines, not to mention anything that can attack back more. What are you planning to multi assault? I'd probably take the bigger squad, and then focus on one thing so you can win.

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Wyches and Scourges operate a 1-2 punch, Scourges stunning with Haywire Blasters so wyches can auto hit Haywire grenades. Wyches can also take care of Dreadnoughts pretty well.

If the Wyches are doing this what's the point of the power weapon? There's only five of them, anything that could assault them will probably just shoot them and kill 3-5 of them easy prior to any assault. So, there's a questionable value to the Hekatrix and the p.weapon in my mind.

Hope some of that is what you were looking for,
Thor.

Thanks. Some of that makes sense to me, however, Some of it I don't agree with, be it because of meta changes or just playstyle.

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Ghostplate and a Shadowfield? I personally think you're paying too much there. Especially considering what this guy is.

Yeah, maybe. This was my last 10pts so I gave him Ghostplate. I will swap it if my playtest deems it unecessary

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Fine - though by the sound of it you're fielding him with Hellions

Yes, he dies on his own.

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Yeah...okay, I think my thoughts on this are pretty well known, and I'm almost tired of writing them out, but here's the quick version;

1. Hellions suck at killing most things in assault due to a lack of power weapons and a meager armor save.
2. Stunclaws are pretty useless, how many ICs that you can kill in assault are going to be with a squad that you can't kill to the point you'll want to run away? Just take an Agoniser.
3. They're too expensive for what they can do, and most Troop options in the book can do anyything they do, only better.

I don't agree with this at all. Fair enough, Warriors can shoot better, Wyches last longer but Hellions are fast and maneuverable and they get a lot of attacks. Plus, they are always in cover for a 3+ because of the dangerous terrain re-roll abd stealth. I find that the Stunclaw adds to the maneuverability. You go after and enemy IC specifically then bring it back for the Archon to chomp.

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Double ick. If you're using the Baron I'd say make one squad of 15, save some points, and get better advantage of his cover save boost for the big squad, as opposed to having an easier to kill squad that is, functionally, just as dangerous as your harder to kill squad. Most opponents aren't dumb enough to shoot the right one

I agree. I did want 2 units of 20, but, that will have to wait for my 2k list

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Eh, I don't think defensive grenades are worth the cost for Wyches - especially a squad this small.
Oh gawds, and you split up your Transports from the units they're dedicated to - ergh, I despise that. But I will delet all the talk about how bad it is to footslog Wyches. I guess these are in a Venom? I'm pretty neutral on this build - I don't think your army needs a tarpit unit, and this Wych squad, as built, is really only good at attacking vehicles, which makes me wonder at some of the other expensive upgrades you opted for. I'd figure out what you're using them for and then focus on making them good at that.

This is basically a situational unit. I wanted the extra Venom and if I don't have Haywire Grenades in my army I always need them. it's usually just a little squad that flies around without getting shot because there are other scarier things. If there is a Dreadnought they go after that, if not they just sit back and rush to contest late game. The Phantasm and power weapon are also there because if I don't take them, I will need them.

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Onslaught helps more the more Incubi you have. At the moment you don't have enough Incubi to have it worth the upgrade - at the amount you're paying for it, you'd be better served by just paying for another Incubi - you'll get a lot more attacks overall...unless you're in a Venom w. Archon...I dunno, if you have space it's a good idea. I'd say it's probably worth the extra few points for a Raider if not.
Also, at that stage, I'd downgrade the Klaivex to a regular Incubi to save points and not really change anything.

This is my Archons unit, in a venom. Again, Onslaught is there because if I don't take it, some time in the game they will all roll 6's to wound and I will cry.

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Fine, though I'd probably take Troops over these guys.

I specifically wanted some haywire blasters. The Scourges can start at the back edge and provide stunlock before the enemy transports get too close to objectives or they can deep strike exactly where you need a piece of armour gone. This has proven a bit too risky for me though and if I knew I would be deep striking them I would go very close and give them Heat Lances. Also, I like their speed compared to warriors. I wanted to make my list as fast as possible really.

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Dislike this build. If you're vaning then you're not shooting, and vice versa. You're paying a lot of points for something that you basically don't want the unit to do. Considering how pathetic Hellions are vs. mech, and your Incubi (though I'm not sure about the Wyches) I'd probably go anti-mech (edit: especially with a Venomspam plan going) I'd drop the Caltrops and just regular bladevane when you're moving into position.

I know the caltrops are expensive, I can't bring myself to take them out though, I have fun with them if nothing else And, whilst zooming around, slicing people up, they usually get more rear armour shots than anyone else, so,I can happily pay for the Heat Lance aswell

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Ravager – 125
Night Shields
Flickerfield

Fine.

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4 Venoms – 280
4 Splinter Cannons
4 Grisly Trophies

Okay, so everybody is in Venoms, natch.

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*cough* multi assault?
You do know that Hellions have difficulty dealing with 10 or so Tac Marines, not to mention anything that can attack back more. What are you planning to multi assault? I'd probably take the bigger squad, and then focus on one thing so you can win.

Ok, not Marines, Fortunately I mostly play against Xenos.

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If the Wyches are doing this what's the point of the power weapon? There's only five of them, anything that could assault them will probably just shoot them and kill 3-5 of them easy prior to any assault. So, there's a questionable value to the Hekatrix and the p.weapon in my mind.

Hekatrix for LD increase. Power weapon wasn't important but I gave it to her just incase.

That's the vague thinking behind my list. Perhaps you could make some more comments now you know why i made the decisions I have.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

That's the vague thinking behind my list. Perhaps you could make some more comments now you know why i made the decisions I have.

A dangerous request, but - certainly

Archon Mephitic wrote:

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Fine - though by the sound of it you're fielding him with Hellions

Yes, he dies on his own.

Well...obviouslly he should be fielded with something (Beasts). What we really need is something that works in a way where he boosts them effectively (Beasts). Something that is assault oriented and needs grenades would be a good start (Beasts). Also, if they were good at shredding infantry and at assaulting vehicles, that would be nice (Beasts). Also, if they were a rock hard unit to hurt, so that his cover boost made them even more ridiculous to hurt (Beasts). And, certainly, they'd need to be harder to kill in h2h than Hellions, maybe by having invulnerable saves, and huge amounts of wounds (beasts). Plus, it would be nice if they generated something like, twice the attacks Hellions do for half the cost (Beasts).

I'll get back to you when I think of something.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

I don't agree with this at all. Fair enough, Warriors can shoot better, Wyches last longer but Hellions are fast and maneuverable and they get a lot of attacks.

Hellions are reasonably fast - though Wyches are faster. Also, Hellions get a decent amount of attacks, but if they get a "lot" than Wyches get a "lot" Bloodbrides get "more than a lot" and Beastmasters get "OMGWTFLOLBBQ"

As far as speed - personally I think Wyches in a Raider are faster (Hellions can threaten up to 24" Wyches in a Raider can threaten up to 27")

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Plus, they are always in cover for a 3+ because of the dangerous terrain re-roll abd stealth. I find that the Stunclaw adds to the maneuverability. You go after and enemy IC specifically then bring it back for the Archon to chomp.

Are they an assault unit that is good? Because most Wyches (having invulnerable saves) can stay and grind down the IC. Yeah, Hellions need to run away and bring in something with a power weapon to kill an IC - I agree. I don't see it as a strength.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

I agree. I did want 2 units of 20, but, that will have to wait for my 2k list

One 15 man will still serve you better than 2 10 man squads.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

The Phantasm and power weapon are also there because if I don't take them, I will need them.

1. What do you "need" the Phantasm for? Defensive grenades? I...don't get it. It's certainly not worth what you're paying for them.
2. You "need" a Str 3 power weapon in a unit that is trying to assault vehicles? At least take a Venom Blade - statistically it will generally be better at killing things than the power weapon and is 1/3 the cost.

I'll note I'm trying to save you 30-35 points here that's like 1/3 of the way to a whole new unit. Add in the points saved from the 5 Hellions and Helliarch last spiel and you've then got the 150 points to buy a new unit.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Again, Onslaught is there because if I don't take it, some time in the game they will all roll 6's to wound and I will cry.

Let's just consider - statistically you're going to have 13 attacks on the charge - 6.5 will hit (so 6-7 hits). On average that means maybe 1-2 will be sixes every turn of combat (2 is magical wtf amazing luck). So you're "gaining" 1-2 attacks every turn. In reality - about 1 presuming you're always assaulting and never lose an Incubi.

For seven points more you get a guaranteed +3 attacks every round, plus an extra wound in the squad.
Is Onslaught really worth it?
Maybe - but you'd want more Incubi to really make it viable in my opinion. Next couple of times you play keep track of how many attacks Onslaught generated. Jot them down. Then consider.

Also, if we realize Onslaught is "meh" with so few Incubi - realize you're paying 15 points for +1 attack from the Klaivex himself. Boom - I just got you more attacks on average and saved you points.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Ok, not Marines, Fortunately I mostly play against Xenos.

Impressive luck, basically half the armies in the game have MEQ stats.
Even playing against Xenos there are a couple I can think of (Striking Scorpions, half the Nid dex, Wyches, Most Ork mobs - not to mention the various Nobz et al) that you would not want to multi-assault with.

You're 10 Imperial Guardsmen in durability coming in with like 30 Str 4 attacks. You're basically inferior Assault Marines with better initiative - I'd be *very* careful in what you choose to multi-assault.

Also - I lost that Scourge thing, but here's a quick thought about relative speed;

Scourges with haywire blasters - threat range = 30"
Raider with lance - threat range = 48"
Warriors sitting on their butts with lance - threat range = 36"

There are different types of speed, and range is one of them.

My additional thoughts,
Thor.

That's better

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Well...obviouslly he should be fielded with something (Beasts). What we really need is something that works in a way where he boosts them effectively (Beasts). Something that is assault oriented and needs grenades would be a good start (Beasts). Also, if they were good at shredding infantry and at assaulting vehicles, that would be nice (Beasts). Also, if they were a rock hard unit to hurt, so that his cover boost made them even more ridiculous to hurt (Beasts). And, certainly, they'd need to be harder to kill in h2h than Hellions, maybe by having invulnerable saves, and huge amounts of wounds (beasts). Plus, it would be nice if they generated something like, twice the attacks Hellions do for half the cost (Beasts).

Wouldn't that take down the movement/charge range? The Beasts can only move 6" and Baron only assaults 6", or is that wrong?

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Hellions are reasonably fast - though Wyches are faster. Also, Hellions get a decent amount of attacks, but if they get a "lot" than Wyches get a "lot" Bloodbrides get "more than a lot" and Beastmasters get "OMGWTFLOLBBQ"

They get the same amout of attacks, surely? Yes bloodbrides get more but they are gone if the Raider dies. I did try and find space for Bloodbrides but I couldn't warrant the points just for a Walker hunting deckchair.

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As far as speed - personally I think Wyches in a Raider are faster (Hellions can threaten up to 24" Wyches in a Raider can threaten up to 27")

This is true, although it only takes 1 (not so) lucky shot to put a raider out of action, then the Wyches are of the game, and it is their Raider that is invariably the first to be destroyed.

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Are they an assault unit that is good? Because most Wyches (having invulnerable saves) can stay and grind down the IC. Yeah, Hellions need to run away and bring in something with a power weapon to kill an IC - I agree. I don't see it as a strength.

Ok, so Wyches can last longer, bu, I find they are just waiting to die. unless they roll +1S combat drugs, I fond they can't hurt anything. Hellions with +1S are now S5 basic. Still no armour save but their charge is usually quite messy. Even if they never win, I still find them fun and what other reason is there?

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One 15 man will still serve you better than 2 10 man squads.

I'll take your advice on this and see what happens.

1. What do you "need" the Phantasm for? Defensive grenades? I...don't get it. It's certainly not worth what you're paying for them.
2. You "need" a Str 3 power weapon in a unit that is trying to assault vehicles? At least take a Venom Blade - statistically it will generally be better at killing things than the power weapon and is 1/3 the cost.[/quote]
You're probably right about this aswell

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I'll note I'm trying to save you 30-35 points here that's like 1/3 of the way to a whole new unit. Add in the points saved from the 5 Hellions and Helliarch last spiel and you've then got the 150 points to buy a new unit.

What would you suggest?

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Let's just consider - statistically you're going to have 13 attacks on the charge - 6.5 will hit (so 6-7 hits). On average that means maybe 1-2 will be sixes every turn of combat (2 is magical wtf amazing luck). So you're "gaining" 1-2 attacks every turn. In reality - about 1 presuming you're always assaulting and never lose an Incubi.

For seven points more you get a guaranteed +3 attacks every round, plus an extra wound in the squad.
Is Onslaught really worth it?
Maybe - but you'd want more Incubi to really make it viable in my opinion. Next couple of times you play keep track of how many attacks Onslaught generated. Jot them down. Then consider.

Also, if we realize Onslaught is "meh" with so few Incubi - realize you're paying 15 points for +1 attack from the Klaivex himself. Boom - I just got you more attacks on average and saved you points.

I know it's wishfull thinking, but it has happened, once I just wish it was like BA Blood Talons. I'll keep track of the Onslaught tally. What do you thinkk of the Bloodstone?

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Impressive luck, basically half the armies in the game have MEQ stats.
Even playing against Xenos there are a couple I can think of (Striking Scorpions, half the Nid dex, Wyches, Most Ork mobs - not to mention the various Nobz et al) that you would not want to multi-assault with.You're 10 Imperial Guardsmen in durability coming in with like 30 Str 4 attacks. You're basically inferior Assault Marines with better initiative - I'd be *very* careful in what you choose to multi-assault.

I am careful. Usually basic troops, if there's a big, soft unit hanging around, I'll get them in there, stick 1 or 2 Hellions into a nearby elite squad, aim as many attacks as possible at the squidgy thing and watch everyone run away. This only works as long as I choose the right thing to attack, I agree.

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Also - I lost that Scourge thing, but here's a quick thought about relative speed;

Scourges with haywire blasters - threat range = 30"
Raider with lance - threat range = 48"
Warriors sitting on their butts with lance - threat range = 36"

There are different types of speed, and range is one of them.

Where else can I get Haywire Blasters?

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My additional thoughts,
Thor.

Thanks, you have definitely given me some things to think about. Not that I'm done with this discussion, feel free to add more thoughts. I'd like to know what other people think aswell, not just one Hellion basher

Ill go back to the orginal list before I start with the other stuff:

HQ: Yes, please take that ghostplate off... 10 points is alot of points that could be used elsewhere...

Baron is fine

Elites: With the Archon you wont need the klavex or onslaught, as you are already going to punch through any unit you run into contact with (give or take the unusual TH/SS termies) So Id drop them and save those points

Blasterborn are fine, but I personally like 4 of them

Troops: Ok, like Thor said Hellions arent made for assault. What they excell at is their shooting (those splinter pods are not to be messed with) Now with Baron they are decent at combat, but your still looking at alot of attacks without a PW. Thats where the Helliarch comes in, and is able to bring that extra pump that they need. Taking a stunclaw hurts them in several ways. First: Hellions cant survive if they are hit back, so pulling an IC with them slaughters them, because your stuck in another round with them. Even Sanguary Priests can mess them up. Secondly it takes away that crucial PW they need to actually make sure they win combat.

But I digress. Your best bet is 1 squad 15 or so with Baron. This isnt a hellion list, so you dont need another wasting points.

Ive seen people have success with 5 wyches in either doing two things. A: Tieing up dreads, or B: Setting up assaults for Incubi. That being said the first is only for a turn or two (unless they get lucky) and the latter needs two squads atleast. You only have 1, and you have a ton of unessicary upgrades for either job (the grenades do nothing, since you should be the one charging, and the PW does nothing to stop dreads, and with only S3 its not going to reliably wound)

Also you have only 3 Troops at 1750... with 2/3rds of the game types relying on troops... your most likely need to table every opponent to win.

FA: Scourges are fine

Reavers... Heh... I hate when people do this. Your either A: always bladevaning, or B: Shooting at tanks. If you are not doing either or, you are wasting an expensive upgrade. If you want to keep the Reavers, I would just stick to 1 heat lance (as you lack AT) or you could combine them, making them more of a target, and pulling fire off your main force. Or even better drop the squad and get another Scourges (more reliable at stunning)

HS: Only 1 Ravager??? Come on man... you really need AT...

Also since you seperated them... why the grisly trophies??? I personally find them useless in that I find they have to kill my transport to get my units (now I dont use many assault raiders/venoms anymore, but my experience has shown after they do their job, they are pretty much dead.) Thats 40 more points you could spend elsewhere... Like your seriously lacking AT or Troop scare...


Now into your whole idea behind DE. Did you use to play Marines??? The reason I ask is that our troops arent worth 200+ points, so to pay 30+ points on "maybes" are pointless. a PW hecatrix isnt a PF sarge, she just doesnt have the surivability or damage output to make back those points spent on upgrades. Same is with the Klavex and Onslaught, rolling two 6s in the entire game, and hitting and wounding with those extra attacks, isnt going to make up all those points spent on the sarge and exarch power. DE is a lean mean fighting machine, and to work, all the fat must be trimmed off for us to succeed.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Wouldn't that take down the movement/charge range? The Beasts can only move 6" and Baron only assaults 6", or is that wrong?

1. It lessens the Beast's assault range - yes.
2. It grants the Beasts grenades - which is HUGE.
3. If you don't need grenades or need the 12" assault, you can always seperate the Baron in the movement phase, and then both he and the Beasts can still get to the assault.

Beasts do, like, 40+ attacks on the charge at good initiative, by having grenades it means they eat anything that they attack, generally before the anything even gets a chance to swing back. Plus, via wound allocation they are hard to kill, and Baron makes them even harder to kill - they pair very well together.

Final thought - in all other armies a unit that could move 6, run 1-6, and assault 6 with initiative 5+ would be called 'fast' they're only "slow" to DE because everything else we have is faster.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

They get the same amout of attacks, surely? Yes bloodbrides get more but they are gone if the Raider dies. I did try and find space for Bloodbrides but I couldn't warrant the points just for a Walker hunting deckchair.

I was noting that Wyches = Hellions for number of attacks.
No, I wouldn't use Bloodbrides for what you're using Wyches for. You made a good call there.
I would use Wyches/Bloodbrides for what you're using Hellions for though.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

This is true, although it only takes 1 (not so) lucky shot to put a raider out of action, then the Wyches are of the game, and it is their Raider that is invariably the first to be destroyed.

By the same logic it takes only 1 (not so) lucky shooting round from any reasonable anti-infantry shooting to halve that squad of 10's fighting power and basically take them out of the game too.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Ok, so Wyches can last longer, bu, I find they are just waiting to die. unless they roll +1S combat drugs, I fond they can't hurt anything. Hellions with +1S are now S5 basic. Still no armour save but their charge is usually quite messy. Even if they never win, I still find them fun and what other reason is there?

If you crunch the numbers - Wyches are as good or better at killing everything except for T4+ units with little to no armor (aka Orks) as Hellions are. Wyches are also much more likely to win combat in resolution. The big difference is, they inflict slightly less wounds but take less damage themselves, allowing them to slowly grind opponents until they run and the Wyches run them down.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

What would you suggest?

As another unit to your army? I would probably want something to increase your anti-tank power. My immediate thought is a Ravager, and then use the extra points to beef up some of what you already have.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

What do you thinkk of the Bloodstone?

Usually I run with my Incubi, and generally what I assault dies without needing to be hit by a weak flamer first. I think Bloodstones are not needed because all they do is help kill maybe a couple guys because it's good at getting through armor...you know what else is good at getting through armor, and hits harder? Incubi.

Frankly, The biggest danger with Incubi is taking too many Incubi. By themselves they are one of the single nastiest units in our army, capable of shredding all sorts of things into something resembling red coleslaw. Get 4-6 paired with an Archon and call it a day, Klaivex not needed.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

Where else can I get Haywire Blasters?

Unfortunately, they're one of our best weapons and are only available on the Talos and Scourges.
That said - you have *lots* of options for more affordable anti-tank that isn't haywire blasters.

Hey, I'll chip in a bit about the Baron/Hellions/Beasts debate as it's something I have been through.

I run a Baron/Hellions list and I'm going to come straight out and say that I don't agree with Thors views on Hellions, but I certainly respect his opinions on them. His advice has certainly helped me to understand them and hone my list significantly.

I believe that it depends on what you want or expect your hellions to do and from how your fielding them I would have concerns. My aim with them is to get them fearless as soon as possible, and to that end I start them with 2 PT's and aim to get them an easy kill as soon as possible. I run 16 in one unit and once fearless then they become very difficult to shift. remember at this stage they have FnP and FC. Going to ground gives them a 2+ save with the Barons stealth boost, followed up by FnP. In assault they are S5 on the charge and can also unload splinter pod shots on the way in, don't expect them to win combats against HtH specialists. In most games they end up with at least one objective under control. And S5 does hurt most vehicles in the game when applied in sufficient numbers.

Following discussions with Thor I have added a beast unit to my list, 3 masters, 4 flocks and 5 Khymerae. These generate a huge amount of attacks (50 I believe) when assaulting and wound allocation tricks can have them hanging about for a long time. Also good for assaulting vehicles with rending attacks. In the last couple of games I've used them they have been very effective and I have been very happy with the results from them. I try to use them alongside the hellion unit as a twin assault threat, I find it works very well.

Personally I would try and get both units in the list and see how it goes, I think they work very well together.

Kenny speaks wisdom...I just reserve the right to chide him for his super expensive skirmish/objective holder unit

First thing I should mention is that my Venoms weren't meant to be split. I have now edited that.

I like the Hellions fluff and models, so, I don't really want to take them out, could you perhaps give me some tips on how I should be using them? Or, should I start a new/find an old thread for that?

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Also you have only 3 Troops at 1750... with 2/3rds of the game types relying on troops... your most likely need to table every opponent to win.

How can I fit in more troops?

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Following discussions with Thor I have added a beast unit to my list, 3 masters, 4 flocks and 5 Khymerae. These generate a huge amount of attacks (50 I believe) when assaulting and wound allocation tricks can have them hanging about for a long time. Also good for assaulting vehicles with rending attacks. In the last couple of games I've used them they have been very effective and I have been very happy with the results from them. I try to use them alongside the hellion unit as a twin assault threat, I find it works very well.

How much is this unit? I was thinking of trying to squeeze in 2, 1 with 2 Razorwing flocks and 1 with 5 Kymerae.

I also want to add a Voidraven into the list at some point, I'm waiting for the real model though. Has anybody playtested one and if so, how are they?

Archon Mephitic wrote:

I like the Hellions fluff and models, so, I don't really want to take them out, could you perhaps give me some tips on how I should be using them? Or, should I start a new/find an old thread for that?

Use them as Beastmasters
Kenny might be willing to weigh in on this. I could discuss how I see Hellions are best used...but it would be filled with me pointing out how other units could do the same/better for less points and is probably not what you want. A new thread over in Tactics would probably get you much better and more varied attention on the subject than asking in an army list thread.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

How can I fit in more troops?

Well...you have 3 Troops, 3 Elite, and 3 FA.
I'd drop some FA and buy Troops who can do the same stuff FA slots can do, but do it better, cheaper, and be scoring at the same time. FA slots are our weakest slots in my opinion - the only really awesome thing in there is Beastmasters.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

How much is this unit? I was thinking of trying to squeeze in 2, 1 with 2 Razorwing flocks and 1 with 5 Kymerae.

You can field a very competitive Beastmatsers build for a touch over 150 (I think Kenny uses the same build I recommend) Even taking it larger only nudges it up to about 200, and at 200 it's almost a Deathstar unit.

Archon Mephitic wrote:

I also want to add a Voidraven into the list at some point, I'm waiting for the real model though. Has anybody playtested one and if so, how are they?

In my opinion they are the second worst Heavy slot (Cronos is worse, everything else is better) Basically they're a more expensive Ravager that is slightly better at blowing stuff up and slightly worse at preventing it from shooting you...yay? I know some people like them, but I think it's an affection born from blindness - as 3 Str 8 Lances is in many ways superior to 2 Str 9 Lances, and that Void Mine is *really* situational, as you probably don't want to be flying your chief anti-armor unit over the enmy lines very much, as that's pretty much a death sentence thereafter.

Well, you could drop the caltrops on both squads, move 5 hellions over and drop the second squad, drop the NS and Grisly Trophies, the needless upgrades on the Incubi/Wyches, and maybe your Archon. Thats ALOT of points you can use to get more troops, and more ravagers

Thanks for the input. I'll go and try to find some help with my Hellions then rethink my list. I've already taken off the 'useless' wargear that's been mentioned and I've almost got 100pts spare. I'll have to try to convince my brain that I don't need more Hellions :s

I've grown to sort of respect Hellions, especially in smaller numbers when they're not so much of an investment. Having a Scoring Jump infantry unit really pays off from time to time, so if you field the Baron they become that much more attractive; just don't overload on them. I'm talking bare essentials here. Splinter pods are actually pretty great AI, and being so mobile, Hellions have many opportunities to accrue Pain tokens, which in turn makes them a viable transport assault unit.

Worthy upgrade: Helliarch, as the extra attack is pretty useful but even more so the Ld boost. Second would be the PGL but that's kind of a waste on small squads.

As for the list itself I'll have to chime in with the MORE AT choir.

PS: Beastmasters are undoubtedly the scariest FA we have available. The Baron loves them. Try the combo and be converted.

The Beast unit listed comes in at 156 points. It's maxed out in terms of beasts to masters and would need another master added to it before any more beasts can be added.
It gives 50 attacks on the charge and has 28 wounds with which to play wound allocation tricks. Something I have learned is that no matter how tempting it may seem to get rid of the beastmasters, try to keep 1 incase of Ld tests.

But only keep one - the other two should be instant frag bait.

First one is always frag bait, second I like to keep around just in case they get say... a lascannon shot or melta shot, then he goes poof But always get rid of those two before a beast

Haha, sounds good for 156pts, Hmmmm, scarier than my Archon aswell. Back to the drawing board I suppose. Unfortunately I can't play any games to test any of these ideas for a week or so