Cloud Dancer vs Ravager

So I was lookin at new Corsair stuff on Battlescribe, and was pretty impressed by the Cloud Dancer option for dark lances.

3 CDs with lances comes in @120, and a Ravager with 3 lances @125.

Pros(CD)
-3 individual models
-Easier to hide
-Assault move
-More maneuverable
-Can move 12" and fire 3 lances accurately
-Can Overwatch

Cons(CD)
-Only T4
-Have to take whole other detachment or go unbound

I know there are plenty of other pros/cons for each, but I'm curious what others think and if any one has used Cloud Dancers in this "heavy support" role.

Cheers

They can also outflank and you can pad the squad with ablative wounds. I definitely prefer the bikes over the Ravager... sadly. Outflanking is just so dang useful... you don't have to expose them to necessary risk, they can thrust out of LOS after shooting and have equal punch. AV11 might as well be T4 due to volume and strength of fire in the game right now.

Sadly our Ravagers are so poor these days that Cloud Dancers would seem to be a far better option.

The only "real" advantages the ravager has over bikes is that it's a vehicle, and therefore fearless.  It can however take disintegrators which are better against TEQ than anything you can put on a bike.

A more direct corsair vehicle comparison would be one of the corsair flyers.  The nightwing is the same price as a lance boat and less durable in terms of AV and HP, but is a stealthy/agile flyer so most things would snap shot at it, and it could then make a 2++ jink.  It normally fires 2 lances at full BS after moving, just like a ravager, and while it lacks a third (which a ravager can only snap shot) - it can still fire both its shuriken cannons at full bs if in range.  And yes that's 8 strength 6, pseudo rending shots - so they're going to kill something.

Alternatively, the Falcon covers most of the bases the ravager does at the same cost.  The corsair version has scout, and better weapon options while still delivering the 2 Str 8 Ap 2 shots(at greater range but without lance) and another heavy weapon a turn.  Then of course there is the fact that the falcon is a front/side AV 12 dedicated transport with a capacity of 6...

Like almost all the other units in the dark eldar codex, I see no reason to field ravagers.

Bikes by a standard mile. On top of being vastly more mobile (can potentially move 12", shoot at full BS, then move 3d6+6"), they're troops with ObjSec.

flakmonkey wrote:

Cons(CD)
-Only T4
-Have to take whole other detachment or go unbound

I have to say, I really wouldn't consider that last one a con. With some other races it might be a pain, because you'd be forced to take some compulsory troops before you can take any 'good stuff'. With Corsairs though, the troops are the good stuff.

Granted, you do need to take a Prince as well, but since the Prince comprises about 90% of what I'd want out of a DE HQ, I find it hard to complain.

Moreover, they also have the option of cheap Splinter Cannons (thus allowing them to replace Venom/Warrior squads as well as Ravagers), and cheap Scatter Lasers/Shuriken Cannons (thus allowing them to be better than anything in the entire DE codex).


Out of interest, how do people think Jet Pack Balestrikes compare to Ravagers?

So it's worth cutting up some dark lances and finally finishing off my reavers obviously.


@Shredder-I think my Scourge will recieve new magnetized lances and be rebranded as Balestrikes and my Ravagers will see even less use.

I hate to be "that guy", but if you can go for scatter lasers on your bikes.

Unless you have a specific use (like against gargantuan creatures, TEQ, or land raiders - or for instant death), scatter lasers are going to out perform lances.  This is largely due to the mobility of the bikes, as they will be able to hit side/rear armor quite often.

Against AV 10 for example, a scatter laser is more than twice as likely to strip a hull point, while still equally likely to kill the vehicle outright.  Against AV 11 the dark lance becomes more likely to penetrate and destroy the vehicle, but scatter lasers will strip twice as many hull points.  Against AV 12 surprisingly the scatter laser still strips slightly more HP, but forgoes any chance of penetrating and destroying (while the lance only has a 7% of that).  Above AV 12... well scatter lasers are useless.

Lances on troops can be useful, especially if you don't have haywire anywhere, but considering they cost considerably more to be less effective in most situations - I'd use them sparingly. At least on units which can take scatter lasers.

I'd also opt for Scatter Lasers (which is quite telling of both Dark Lances and Ravagers).

I won't bother naming the benefits of Scatter Lasers (since stilgar27 has already done an excellent job), but I'll say that there's also the issue of cost and availability. A Dark Lance Reaver costs 33% more than a Scatter Laser one, and yet is worse overall (what a fitting metaphor for the DE codex compared to the Eldar one).

Anyway, one thing that's important for me is that Balestrikes can take Dark Lances (and for a slightly lower cost than the bikes), but are unable to take Scatter Lasers. So, for me at least, it makes more sense to give my Balestrikes Dark Lances and give the bikes Scatter Lasers.

For the price of two lance cloud dancers you double your s8 firepower (no lance tho) with one hornet. Two ravagers are the price of three hornets.

Don't remember the price corsair Falcons pay for a lance, but they're another source of triple s8 firepower as a troop choice.

Looking at the corsair list overall, the cloud dancer seems the most efficient place to put your scatter lasers, splinter cannons too. Unless your local meta has a lot of t4 w2 dudes, the multi shot weapons are a better deal for most situations.

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I kinda wish cloud dancers had cheap (5-10pts) blasters  instead of lances that double their price, it would give the balestrikes more uniqueness in comparison and encourage more "reckless" maneuvers with the bikers. Also makes for quick "my reaver is a cloud dancer" conversions.

HokutoAndy wrote:

Don't remember the price corsair Falcons pay for a lance, but they're another source of triple s8 firepower as a troop choice.

Corsair falcons start with a shuriken cannon that can be upgraded to a lance for 5 points.  I did make a mistake though, they're 5 more points base than lance ravagers/craftworld falcon.  So to get your 3 S8 Ap2 shots from a corsair falcon you'd need to spend 135 points, but besides all the other advantages, you'd still get to fire off all 3 shots at full bs while moving at combat speed.  You could of course also snap fire the 3rd weapon on the falcon, which might be useful depending on what it is.

It's true that hornets get off more shots at a greater range, for a lower price.  There are benefits to the falcon though such as being objective secured, with transport capacity, and AV12.  You can also take falcons without using up any actual organization slots, while hornets take up a competitive one.

HokutoAndy wrote:

I kinda wish cloud dancers had cheap (5-10pts) blasters  instead of lances that double their price, it would give the balestrikes more uniqueness in comparison and encourage more "reckless" maneuvers with the bikers. Also makes for quick "my reaver is a cloud dancer" conversions.

The trouble is, it would also make Corsair Reavers pretty redundant.

I'd kinda like to see Balestrikes be able to take 1:1 Blasters or Fusion Guns, though that may have the same effect.

stilgar27 wrote:

A more direct corsair vehicle comparison would be one of the corsair flyers.  The nightwing is the same price as a lance boat and less durable in terms of AV and HP, but is a stealthy/agile flyer so most things would snap shot at it, and it could then make a 2++ jink.  It normally fires 2 lances at full BS after moving, just like a ravager, and while it lacks a third (which a ravager can only snap shot) - it can still fire both its shuriken cannons at full bs if in range.  And yes that's 8 strength 6, pseudo rending shots - so they're going to kill something.

The shuriken cannons are only 3 shots each, so that should be 6 strength 6 shots. I ran a pair of those last week and I've gotta say I was actually rather disappointed. They sounded great on paper but neither accomplished anything throughout my game against Tau.

I stopped using ravagers when the new codex hit though. I couldn't justify it when it lost the ability to fire all weapons when moving at cruising speed and got a price increase. Triple disintegrators are the only way I'd run them anymore.

Cloud Dancers are phenomenal, but I'm liking mixes of lances, scatter lasers, and splinter cannons.

lessthanjeff wrote:

Cloud Dancers are phenomenal, but I'm liking mixes of lances, scatter lasers, and splinter cannons.

Likewise, though I'll also add Fusion Guns to that list.

Ravagers are close to the dimensions of the hornet (longer, and taller with the sail though) you could remove its forward darklance and say "this is a dual pulse laser hornet".

Or convert them by adding a closed cockpit (like those on a venom or falcon turret) to where the center darklance would've gone.

lessthanjeff wrote:

The shuriken cannons are only 3 shots each, so that should be 6 strength 6 shots.  I ran a pair of those last week and I've gotta say I was actually rather disappointed.  They sounded great on paper but neither accomplished anything throughout my game against Tau.

True - I had a brain fart (I have been doing that a lot lately) and likely mentally mixed them with scatter lasers.    It doesn't help that I almost always replace my shuriken cannons with scatter lasers where possible.

While shuriken cannons do have their uses, it's rather telling that we didn't even bring them up in our discussion on bikes.

stilgar27 wrote:

While shuriken cannons do have their uses, it's rather telling that we didn't even bring them up in our discussion on bikes.

To be fair, Shuriken Cannons are still very good weapons - they just look bad when costed the same as Scatter Lasers.